The Atonement of Jesus Christ---all men--or just a few?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

I would take a deity who wants all of us to be happy, but whose LOVING NATURE prevents Him from forcing them to be happy if they don't really want to be, over a "deity" who hates most people and who only wants a small percentage of them to be happy and therefore made it impossible for the majority to escape endless misery.

Alma 11:37
37 And I say unto you again that he cannot save them in their sins; for I cannot deny his word, and he hath said that no unclean thing can inherit the kingdom of heaven; therefore, how can ye be saved, except ye inherit the kingdom of heaven? Therefore, ye cannot be saved in your sins.


Jeff the Mormon Jesus "CANNOT SAVE THEM", so I don't know what you are talking about saying he would be forcing them.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---Agreed. But the reason they can be judged according to their works--is they had an opportunity to choose and be judged according to their own works. If God had not Atoned for them--they would not ever had had the chance to make choices--it would not make any difference what they did--they would be condemned, period. They would have never had a chance.

Originally Posted by MacG

Please restate.

IOW--the Atonement absolved all men from the condemnation of the Fall that automatically befell upon all men---making it possible to answer for our own sins-- not the sins of someone else. The Fall brought death and hell upon all--the Atonement released us from the consequences of that in the resurrection and the Blood Atonement for all the sins of the world. That provides all men with the opportunity to inherit eternal life--by obeying the conditions set by the Redeemer. Up to that point--men could do what they may--but the condemnation of the Fall still rested upon them, and there was no way to release them from that condemnation--all men were subject to the consequences of death and hell.

It was a free gift to all men--the Atonement of Jesus Christ--that released them from those consequences, as an automatic consequence. Nothing required--and it came upon all men when Christ finished it--not when one adds something to it--such as faith, works, belief, trust, etc. Now, we answer for our own sins--what we choose to obey--not what Adam did.

Faith alone have a misguided belief that if they believe in the Atonement--"accept" it--they will be saved. That is a false belief--the Atonement did not forgive a single sin--nor give one person eternal life. It gave all the OPPORTUNITY to inherit life--by obeying the conditions set by the Redeemer--Jesus Christ. The Atonement provided the opportunity for the forgiveness of sins--through repentance and water baptism--having faith in Christ.

I have asked the question often--if the Atonement forgave sins--then why were all commanded to repent and be baptized for the remission of sins--and that after the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ?

The Bible testifies against almost every doctrine the faith alone have. They are no longer led of the living apostles and prophets--and do stumble, as the Jews did. Their theologies will not match the Biblical record--quite to the contrary.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by MacG View Post----If I had brought pie, others would have partaken but not the cake people


Matthew 22 "Jesus spoke to them again in parables, saying, “The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who gave a wedding feast for his son. And he sent out his slaves to call those who had been invited to the wedding feast, and they were unwilling to come. Again he sent out other slaves saying, ‘Tell those who have been invited, “Behold, I have prepared my dinner; my oxen and my fattened livestock are all butchered and everything is ready; come to the wedding feast.”’ But they paid no attention and went their way, one to his own farm, another to his business, and the rest seized his slaves and mistreated them and killed them. But the king was enraged, and he sent his armies and destroyed those murderers and set their city on fire. Then he said to his slaves, ‘The wedding is ready, but those who were invited were not worthy. Go therefore to the main highways, and as many as you find there, invite to the wedding feast.’ Those slaves went out into the streets and gathered together all they found, both evil and good; and the wedding hall was filled with dinner guests.

“But when the king came in to look over the dinner guests, he saw a man there who was not dressed in wedding clothes, and he said to him, ‘Friend, how did you come in here without wedding clothes?’ And the man was speechless. Then the king said to the servants, ‘Bind him hand and foot, and throw him into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’ For many are called, but few are chosen.”

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post-----Just an observation, Mac, if you will. The free gift to all men did not involve anyone's choices. It "came upon" all men when Christ finished it--not when someone accepted it. It was Christ alone. He finished it. Nailed it to the cross. Over. Done. Finished. Complete. He alone--with His perfection--accomplished the free gift--and it came upon all men--then and there. Nothing left to do to complete the free gift. And it came upon all men--past tense.

IMO--you might be confusing Christ's Atonement for all men with the personal reception of eternal life, or the forgiveness of sins. The Atonement for all men's sins neither gave anyone eternal life--nor did it forgive the first sin. But it did absolve all men from the condemnation due to the Fall--and gave all men the opportunity to inherit eternal life--and obtain the forgiveness of sins--by obeying the conditions set by the Redeemer.

There is a difference between the OPPORTUNITY to inherit life--and the actual reception of it. For instance--if the Atonement forgave anyone's sins--then why were all commanded to repent and be baptized for the remission of sins?

It's likened to a college--the opportunity to gain an education in America is presented by the presence of a college--but one has to obey the criteria in order to obtain the diploma. There is a difference between an opportunity and the personal reception of a diploma. There is also a difference between the Atonement--where are men were afforded the opportunity through Christ's Blood Atonement--where the condemnation was taken from all men due to the Fall--providing all me with the opportunity to be judged for their own actions, and not Adam's--and the personal reception of the remission of sins, God's grace-----which came through repentance and water baptism. His grace for our obedience to Him.

Originally Posted by MacG

Just an observation, dberrie2000, you dance pretty good. But I see that you completely glossed over the Scripture I provided and gave me a lot of your own words.

Mac--I gave a number of scriptures I was commenting to--what is it about the fact the Atonement was for all men do you believe Matthew cancels out?

Romans 5:18--King James Version (KJV)


18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

I may be wrong but I believe that this is the false foundation which you have built your house: Nobody is judged/held accountable for Adam's sin but Adam: EX 24:16 "Fathers shall not be put to death for their sons, nor shall sons be put to death for their fathers; everyone shall be put to death for his own sin."

And how does that statement differ from my own statement--"The Atonement for all men's sins neither gave anyone eternal life--nor did it forgive the first sin. But it did absolve all men from the condemnation due to the Fall--and gave all men the opportunity to inherit eternal life--and obtain the forgiveness of sins--by obeying the conditions set by the Redeemer."

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Romans 5:18--King James Version (KJV)


18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Romans 5:18--King James Version (KJV)


18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Romans 5:17*For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

-"The Atonement for all men's sins neither gave anyone eternal life--nor did it forgive the first sin. But it did absolve all men from the condemnation due to the Fall--and gave all men the opportunity to inherit eternal life--and obtain the forgiveness of sins--by obeying the conditions set by the Redeemer."

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post----Romans 5:18--King James Version (KJV)


18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Mac--I gave a number of scriptures I was commenting to--what is it about the fact the Atonement was for all men do you believe Matthew cancels out?

Originally Posted by Billyray

Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

And how are you using this verse to cancel out the fact that all men were justified of life due to the free gift of the Atonement to all men?

There are a number of different approaches to justification before God:


James 2:20-26---King James Version (KJV)


20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

But the scriptures are plain, as to the fact that all men were justified of life, as a free gift--in Christ's Atonement for the sins of the whole world:


1 John 2:2---King James Version (KJV)


2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.


But that means just a few men--right?

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Jeff the Mormon Jesus "CANNOT SAVE THEM", so I don't know what you are talking about saying he would be forcing them.

Then I guess you should have spent more time as an LDS learning LDS doctrines before you chose to switch over to attacking those doctrines. Jesus CANNOT save people who have used their God-given freedom to choose who they will serve, and have chosen a path that leads AWAY from God. The reason Jesus CANNOT save people who don't want to be saved, is that the only way He could save such people would be by stealing their freedom to choose, and instead FORCING them into heaven. But since that is not God's way of saving people, then He really can't allow unrepentant people to get eternal life. Sorry, but that's just the way it is.

Does that help you understand?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

The reason Jesus CANNOT save people who don't want to be saved, is that the only way He could save such people would be by stealing their freedom to choose, and instead FORCING them into heaven.

Alma 11
37 And I say unto you again that he cannot save them in their sins; for I cannot deny his word, and he hath said that no unclean thing can inherit the kingdom of heaven; therefore, how can ye be saved, except ye inherit the kingdom of heaven? Therefore, ye cannot be saved in your sins.

So the Mormon Jesus could save them if he wanted to?

Would you say that one of the most important desires of the LDS god is to ensure individual free will? Even over other desires such as seeing ALL come to Him and being saved?

[MacG]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

IOW--the Atonement absolved all men from the condemnation of the Fall that automatically befell upon all men---making it possible to answer for our own sins-- not the sins of someone else. The Fall brought death and hell upon all--the Atonement released us from the consequences of that in the resurrection and the Blood Atonement for all the sins of the world. That provides all men with the opportunity to inherit eternal life--by obeying the conditions set by the Redeemer. Up to that point--men could do what they may--but the condemnation of the Fall still rested upon them, and there was no way to release them from that condemnation--all men were subject to the consequences of death and hell.

It was a free gift to all men--the Atonement of Jesus Christ--that released them from those consequences, as an automatic consequence. Nothing required--and it came upon all men when Christ finished it--not when one adds something to it--such as faith, works, belief, trust, etc. Now, we answer for our own sins--what we choose to obey--not what Adam did.

Faith alone have a misguided belief that if they believe in the Atonement--"accept" it--they will be saved. That is a false belief--the Atonement did not forgive a single sin--nor give one person eternal life. It gave all the OPPORTUNITY to inherit life--by obeying the conditions set by the Redeemer--Jesus Christ. The Atonement provided the opportunity for the forgiveness of sins--through repentance and water baptism--having faith in Christ.

I have asked the question often--if the Atonement forgave sins--then why were all commanded to repent and be baptized for the remission of sins--and that after the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ?

The Bible testifies against almost every doctrine the faith alone have. They are no longer led of the living apostles and prophets--and do stumble, as the Jews did. Their theologies will not match the Biblical record--quite to the contrary.

Thank you. Now I understand where you are coming from and from your definitions your position makes sense.

But I as I understand it the Fall is what introduced death to mankind as well as the general curse of by the sweat or your brow shall you work the soil, increased pains in labor for women etc. In that scene all were held accountable for their own sin and death as well as the curse remains in place even to this day (Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned—). The pattern of personal accountability is found in continued in Deuteronomy (among other places) we are told that each man is accountable for his own sins, not his father's, not his son's, but his. Through the a sacrifice of animals each acknowledged his own sin and the scripture is true, those sacrifices were a shadow of the unblemished lamb which was to come and taketh away the sin of the world. Again the scripture is true when it says that through one man Adam death has entered but through Christ all will be made alive with the sheep to eternal light and the goats to eternal darkness.

Faith Alone can be misunderstood as well and perhaps that is part of this dialogue. Faith Alone is not I believe and that's it, I'm in olly-olly-oxenfree!. Those of such faith are still-born spiritually speaking. These are those that James is talking about, those that have only a said faith with no evidence of new spiritual life. Faith Alone means there is nothing that I can do which will make me righteous. Just like Abraham offering up Issac, to do so he had to first believe. James was proving that he was not still-born and was engaged in the work that the Father has to be done - not works to justify himself or to prove himself worthy but works to bring God glory. This why the early Christians were called followers. Not to offend, but still-borns do not follow, and likewise followers do not follow if they do not first believe, otherwise they are wanderers or spiritual couch potatoes. I do not put my full weight on a chair without first believing that it will hold me. Then I can work at my desk fully supported by the chair, the chair is doing the work of holding me off of the floor, the chair is my foundation, my feet are no longer tired working to keep the rest of me off of the floor and my hands are free to do His work.

Faith Alone means there is no balance scale of my sins on one side and 'good' works on the other as evidence to prove my worthiness or erase my sin but only the Father's works done in the grati tude of Zacheus for having answered the knock at the door as it were and Jesus having entered into his house (Rev 3:20).

I tell telemarketers and street hustlers all the time "If it is free, I can't afford it." and hang up or walk away. Why do I say this? Because I do not believe them. It may be legitimate, but in order for me to take advantage of their free gift or prize I must believe them and accept their offer and then and only then can I have their 'gift'. Who knows? Maybe I'll lose out on a Publisher's Clearing House check someday all because I did not believe.

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by Billyray

So the Mormon Jesus could save them if he wanted to?

Can the Jesus of the Bible save people who never accept Him?
Does the Bible teach that people who refuse to accept Jesus will get eternal life?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

Can the Jesus of the Bible save people who never accept Him?

God can choose to save anyone He chooses IF He chooses to do so. God is God and can do whatever he pleases.

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

Does the Bible teach that people who refuse to accept Jesus will get eternal life?

The Bible teaches that you can either obey the law perfectly and be saved or accept that you are a sinner and place your trust in Christ to save you.

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

Can the Jesus of the Bible save people who never accept Him?
Does the Bible teach that people who refuse to accept Jesus will get eternal life?

We believe what the Bible teaches.. You can find your answer in John 3:16.. IHS jim

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

Can the Jesus of the Bible save people who never accept Him?
Does the Bible teach that people who refuse to accept Jesus will get eternal life?

As a side note I find it hypocritical for you to try and point the finger when you yourself believe that a person who doesn't accept Christ in this life can be saved. Also you believe a small child who dies is saved and goes to the Celestial kingdom without accepting Christ in this life and nowhere that I have read from LDS literature does it say that they have an option to go anywhere but to the celestial kingdom, which would mean that he or she never had a choice in the matter.

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by Billyray

God can choose to save anyone He chooses IF He chooses to do so.

Really? Then list the names of all the people who He chose to save who His Son refused to (or was unable to) die for. Heck, name even one such person.

God is God and can do whatever he pleases.

Then He can have His Son die for all of us like the Bible says, if He pleases....right?

The Bible teaches that you can either obey the law perfectly and be saved or accept that you are a sinner and place your trust in Christ to save you.

Or, you can accept that you are a sinner and then become a disciple of Jesus who works out your salvation with fear and trembling, enduring to the end so that on Judgment Day you will inherit eternal life, like the Bible says, right?

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by Billyray

As a side note I find it hypocritical for you to try and point the finger when you yourself believe that a person who doesn't accept Christ in this life can be saved.

It's not hypocritical for me to believe that people who didn't get a chance to hear and accept the gospel in this life will get the chance after they die, as I point out the flaws in your Calvinism.

Also you believe a small child who dies is saved and goes to the Celestial kingdom without accepting Christ in this life and nowhere that I have read from LDS literature does it say that they have an option to go anywhere but to the celestial kingdom, which would mean that he or she never had a choice in the matter.

Those children had proven their faithfulness in the premortal world. All they needed to to in addition was to get a physical body so that after they died they could be resurrected. They had the choice to accept or reject Christ in the premortal world, and they chose to accept Him and were so loyal to Him that it was unnecessary for them to be tested down here.

So again you got it wrong, since they did have a choice. They just chose more wisely than the rest of us did.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

It's not hypocritical for me to believe that people who didn't get a chance to hear and accept the gospel in this life will get the chance after they die, as I point out the flaws in your Calvinism.

You believe that a person can be saved despite not accepting Christ in this life. Can you show me the verses in the Bible where it states that people have a second chance to accept the gospel after they die? Then we can compare verses to see if what you say is true.

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

Those children had proven their faithfulness in the premortal world. All they needed to to in addition was to get a physical body so that after they died they could be resurrected. They had the choice to accept or reject Christ in the premortal world, and they chose to accept Him and were so loyal to Him that it was unnecessary for them to be tested down here.

So again you got it wrong, since they did have a choice. They just chose more wisely than the rest of us did.

Can you show me in the Bible where it talks about children doing good works prior to them being born thus resulting in going straight to heaven without ever accepting Christ?

[MacG]

"nor did it forgive the first sin. But it did absolve all men from the condemnation due to the Fall"

As far as I know, the only condemnation from the fall that is visited on all men is the curse on the soil and child birth. Why do those persist if the Atonement absolved all men?

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by James Banta

We believe what the Bible teaches.. You can find your answer in John 3:16.. IHS jim

Thanks, Jim, for quoting a verse that refutes the false idea that Jesus only died for a small fraction of the human race.

[RealFakeHair]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

Thanks, Jim, for quoting a verse that refutes the false idea that Jesus only died for a small fraction of the human race.

Yes, God of the Holy Bible says, Jesus came that man might be Saved. However all men are and will not be Saved.
Now, what do we take from that? 1. all men are not Saved, and second, God of the Holy Bible knows all things past, present, and future, thus He knows who, will and who will not be Saved. Thus, God of the Holy Bible who allowed all men to be borned into this World, and if he Saved all men then He could have easly not allowed the unsaved men to be born. So, yes, the God of the Holy Bible is in control of who is and who isn't Saved. If the God of the Holy Bible knows you are not going to be Saved, bend over touch your knees and kiss your u no what good by, and that goes for me too.

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by RealFakeHair

Yes, God of the Holy Bible says, Jesus came that man might be Saved. However all men are and will not be Saved.
Now, what do we take from that? 1. all men are not Saved, and second, God of the Holy Bible knows all things past, present, and future, thus He knows who, will and who will not be Saved. Thus, God of the Holy Bible who allowed all men to be borned into this World, and if he Saved all men then He could have easly not allowed the unsaved men to be born. So, yes, the God of the Holy Bible is in control of who is and who isn't Saved. If the God of the Holy Bible knows you are not going to be Saved, bend over touch your knees and kiss your u no what good by, and that goes for me too.

I think I can agree with all that. And it doesn't lend any support to Billy's belief that God allowed all of us to be born, but He only allowed His Son to die for a small fraction of us.

[RealFakeHair]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

I think I can agree with all that. And it doesn't lend any support to Billy's belief that God allowed all of us to be born, but He only allowed His Son to die for a small fraction of us.

Well, heck, if I can't argue with you it ain't no fun. I did awful in math especially fractions.
I wish I was smart enough to know who is in and who is out, but I am smart enough to know I need to be in the in-crowd.
I love the word providence, and I pray Providence has my name in the Lamb's book of Life, and if not I'd better get use to the heat. sunblock anyone?

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by RealFakeHair

Well, heck, if I can't argue with you it ain't no fun

I bet we will have some fun again soon.

I did awful in math especially fractions.
I wish I was smart enough to know who is in and who is out, but I am smart enough to know I need to be in the in-crowd.
I love the word providence, and I pray Providence has my name in the Lamb's book of Life, and if not I'd better get use to the heat. sunblock anyone?

I like the word Providence, too. I grew up in a city with that name.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

I like the word Providence, too.

Let's talk about God's providence since you believe that every single person has complete free will.

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Let's talk about God's providence since you believe that every single person has complete free will.

Don't Arminians believe that?