2 Samuel 12:23 But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shallgo to him, but he shall not return to me.
Jeff now you are making stuff up because you were backed into a corner on this one.
2 Samuel 12:23 But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shallgo to him, but he shall not return to me.
Jeff now you are making stuff up because you were backed into a corner on this one.
You're taking that as an inspired prophetic prediction, when it's just as probable that it was an emotional statement. He didn't say "Thus saith the Lord, I will definitely go to heaven and hang out with my dead son, despite the horrible crimes I committed." And by the way: Do you believe that everything David said was true?
You didn't seem to have a problem using David's words to support the position that children who die go to heaven. That is a major problem with Mormonism--it trains you to disavow God's word. In this case you are taught that David wasn't saved which makes it easy for you to disavow anything he says.You're taking that as an inspired prophetic prediction, when it's just as probable that it was an emotional statement. He didn't say "Thus saith the Lord, I will definitely go to heaven and hang out with my dead son, despite the horrible crimes I committed." And by the way: Do you believe that everything David said was true?
Well--if we all fall short--then no one will be saved.
What the Bible does state is that all will be judged according to our works--after death--and that for life or ****ation:
John 5:28-29---King James Version (KJV)
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.
If those who "done good" receive of life--then how did they fall short?
Are these among those who place their trust in Christ?The only hope than any one of us has is to place our trust in Christ to save us.
1 John 1:7---King James Version (KJV)
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
Again--how do those who do good come up short? Short of what?Those who do will be saved and those who depend on their own works will be judged and come up short.
John 5:28-29---King James Version (KJV)
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.
But that is a reference to Abraham and those who lived under the gospel--not those who lived under the Law of works--the Mosaic Law. Abraham was given God's grace due to his obedience under the gospel--not the law of works:
Genesis 26:4-5---King James Version (KJV)
4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.
God justified all men of life--the ungodly alike--in His Atonement:
Romans 5:18---King James Version (KJV)
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
Romans 4:5However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.
Then you are in agreement that the ungodly are justified by faith and not by works such as Abraham and those who live under the gospel. Good to see we are in agreement.
But Abraham was not ungodly, right? So who are these ungodly people the scripture mentions? Maybe it's all those Mormons who don't believe everything you believe about God, but have a lot of faith.Romans 4:5However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.
Then you are in agreement that the ungodly are justified by faith and not by works such as Abraham and those who live under the gospel. Good to see we are in agreement.
Abram was ungodly just like all other men until the day that faith was found in his heart and God counted it for righteousness (Gen 15:6). Then because God made him righteous Abram became a godly man. Abram was ungodly until God changed him. As we trust God He changes us from ungodly to godly just as He did Abram..
The LDS are filled with faith in a god that is NOT present in the Bible.. It's the same thing as having faith in an old frayed rope. It never failed you before but when you really need it it breaks.. IHS jim
So was Abram ungodly on the day God told him to slaughter his son? Was that the day Abram became godly through obedience and doing a work? And do you agree with Billy that Jesus is not the only way to salvation?
We are ALL sinners Jeff. For some reason you still don't seem to get that.
Romans 4:5However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.
Tell me what this verse says?
What about that Chinese baby who was flushed down the sewer pipe by his parents because they didn't want to pay the "baby tax"? What sins did that baby commit, that made him a sinner as you claim?
Well, the JST says that it's mistranslated or mistransmitted. JST says that God justifies NOT the ungodly, which makes a lot more sense and agrees with other Bible verses that say that justification comes by doing GOOD things, such as obeying, having faith, etc.Romans 4:5However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.
Tell me what this verse says?
Let's take your point of view for a moment. A baby/child is perfectly obedient to the law--but does not place his or her faith in Christ. Is the basis of salvation for that baby/child his own works of the law?
Romans 4:5However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.
So the LDS way around this verse--since it contradicts the LDS works righteousness--is to say that this was "mistransmitted". Do you have any evidence for this?
Uh, babies aren't able to obey or disobey the commandments because they don't yet have the ability to read or understand the language it would take to explain the commandments to them. Or do you really think that a 1-year-old can understand what "Thou shalt not commit adultery" means?
Sure: "In the JST Romans 4:5 reads, "But to him that seeketh not to be justified by the law of works, but believeth on him who justifieth not the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness."Romans 4:5However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.
So the LDS way around this verse--since it contradicts the LDS works righteousness--is to say that this was "mistransmitted". Do you have any evidence for this?
http://www.mrm.org/faith-alone-in-jst
Do any of the thousands of ancient m****cripts support Joseph's translation?Sure: "In the JST Romans 4:5 reads, "But to him that seeketh not to be justified by the law of works, but believeth on him who justifieth not the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness."
http://www.mrm.org/faith-alone-in-jst
Romans 4
1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.
Let's look at the verse in question and see if Joseph's translation fits with the surrounding verses. Do you think that it fits?
If they are sinless then they are by definition obeying the laws of God. Right?Uh, babies aren't able to obey or disobey the commandments because they don't yet have the ability to read or understand the language it would take to explain the commandments to them. Or do you really think that a 1-year-old can understand what "Thou shalt not commit adultery" means?
So do you believe that the basis for salvation for babies/children is their perfect obedience to the laws of God?
Or it just means that the fetus or baby is unable to sin, and is therefore sinless by definition.
If they have committed no sins, they don't really deserve an eternity in hell, IMO. Do you think my position is wrong?So do you believe that the basis for salvation for babies/children is their perfect obedience to the laws of God?
So do you believe that the basis for salvation for babies/children is their perfect obedience to the laws of God NOT based on Christ and his sacrifice?
Oath formerly taken by Mormons promising not to reveal secret Mormon temple rituals: "Should we do so, we agree to have our breasts cut open and our hearts and vitals torn from our bodies and given to the birds of the air and the beasts of the field."
While us LDS obviously agree with your belief that infants and very young children are saved thanks to the atonement if they die in their innocent years--a 'grace period' so to speak--I fear that some Evangelicals might disagree with you (and us LDS) on this.
But you believe that these children are sinless. What sins did Christ pay for if they were indeed without sin?