The tally of Biblical quotes

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Billyray View Post---You falsely claimed on CARM that Christians don't use the Bible when discussing with Mormons. You know that is an absolutely false claim.

I stated they do not use the Bible very often--as they don't here. Probably less than 50%--and maybe less than 30%--of the posts here by non-LDS contain Biblical quotes. Possibly even less on the CARM forum.

OK--Billyray questions the fact that the faith alone use the Bible but little on their forums. I told him I would do a tally and post the results.

In the ---Faith verses works for salvation--thread, the one in which Billyray made this accusation--is the one I chose for the tally. The results are as follows:

For those who are non LDS--there were approx 75 posts. 63 of those posts contained no Biblical quotes. That is a 8.5% percentage.

For me alone--I posted approx 13 times in that thread--and 13 times I included Biblical p***ages. That's a 100% percentage.

Billyray--who was right? The thread is there for all to verify the results.

Faith alone--where is your Bible?

Comments?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Faith alone--where is your Bible?

Romans 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Romans 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Romans 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Ephesians 2
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

[dberrie2000]

dberrie----OK--Billyray questions the fact that the faith alone use the Bible but little on their forums. I told him I would do a tally and post the results.

In the ---Faith verses works for salvation--thread, the one in which Billyray made this accusation--is the one I chose for the tally. The results are as follows:

For those who are non LDS--there were approx 75 posts. 63 of those posts contained no Biblical quotes. That is a 8.5% percentage.

For me alone--I posted approx 13 times in that thread--and 13 times I included Biblical p***ages. That's a 100% percentage.

Billyray--who was right? The thread is there for all to verify the results.

Faith alone--where is your Bible?

Comments?

Originally Posted by Billyray

Romans 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Romans 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Romans 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Ephesians 2
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Billyray--you humor me. My wife is a teacher--and she has students that do nothing during the year--and when they see they are going to fail--they rush to her with all sorts of make-up work trying to make up for the fact they did nothing during the year. You might be kinda like one of those examples.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Billyray--you humor me. My wife is a teacher--and she has students that do nothing during the year--and when they see they are going to fail--they rush to her with all sorts of make-up work trying to make up for the fact they did nothing during the year. You might be kinda like one of those examples.

Revelation 21:8 But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Revelation 21:8 But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”

You got it Billyray!

[Billyray]

--where is your Bible?

Comments?

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Revelation 21:8 But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”

2 questions about your beliefs as they relate to this verse you quoted, Billy:

1. Paul and Moses were murderers. Do you believe their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death? If not, then why not, since the scripture seems to say that's their fate?

2. If the fate of all cowardly, and all detestable, and all murderers, and all sexually immoral, and all sorcerers, and all idolaters, and all liars will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death, then the reason will be because Jesus didn't pay for their sins....right? After all, how can they end up there if the price for their sins has been paid by Jesus?


Thanks for your answers.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

1. Paul and Moses were murderers. Do you believe their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death? If not, then why not, since the scripture seems to say that's their fate?

Both are sinners like the rest of us and deserving of death. However those who come to Christ by faith will be saved from their sins.

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

2. If the fate of all cowardly, and all detestable, and all murderers, and all sexually immoral, and all sorcerers, and all idolaters, and all liars will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death, then the reason will be because Jesus didn't pay for their sins....right? After all, how can they end up there if the price for their sins has been paid by Jesus?

EVERY single person who comes to Christ by faith will be justified/saved.

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Both are sinners like the rest of us and deserving of death. However those who come to Christ by faith will be saved from their sins..

But the verse you quoted doesn't say that. It says

"as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”

It doesn't say "most liars" or "liars who Jesus didn't atone for." It says ALL liars, and since "ALL have sinned" means EVERYONE, with NO exceptions, then shouldn't "all liars" mean ALL liars with no exceptions?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

But the verse you quoted doesn't say that. It says

"as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”

It doesn't say "most liars" or "liars who Jesus didn't atone for." It says ALL liars, and since "ALL have sinned" means EVERYONE, with NO exceptions, then shouldn't "all liars" mean ALL liars with no exceptions?

No the verse doesn't say that but the NT makes it clear that every single one of us are sinners and we will be judged by God's laws and we will all fall short. The only hope than any one of us has is to place our trust in Christ to save us. Those who do will be saved and those who depend on their own works will be judged and come up short.

[nrajeffreturns]

But you quoted a verse that refutes your belief that those who trust in Christ will escape that fate. The verse says that ALL liars WILL be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the 2nd death.

It doesn't say "Only SOME liars will be there, but other liars won't because Jesus atoned for the sins of those other liars."

It seems to me that it must be talking about all unrepentant liars, murderers, etc. And the reason those people will end up in the 2nd death won't be because Jesus refused to die for them. It will be because Jesus WAS willing to die for them, and DID die for them, but they didn't want to repent and follow Christ, which would allow that payment to save them.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

It seems to me that it must be talking about all unrepentant liars, murderers, etc.

Where does it say "unrepentand liars" in this verse? It doesn't. We are all sinners and if our works are what gets us into heaven then none of us would make it. Salvation is based on trusting in Christ to save us from our sins.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

But the verse you quoted doesn't say that. It says

"as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”

It doesn't say "most liars" or "liars who Jesus didn't atone for." It says ALL liars, and since "ALL have sinned" means EVERYONE, with NO exceptions, then shouldn't "all liars" mean ALL liars with no exceptions?

Revelation 21:8 But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.” KJV

Revelation 21:8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.” NIV

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Where does it say "unrepentand liars" in this verse?

The same place where it says "ALL liars will get the second death....except for the ones BillyRay claims won't get it."

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

The same place where it says "ALL liars will get the second death....except for the ones BillyRay claims won't get it."

Revelation 21:8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.” NIV

Did you happen to catch the part where it says "the unbelieving"?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

The same place where it says "ALL liars will get the second death....

Have you ever told a lie?

[Sir]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

But you quoted a verse that refutes your belief that those who trust in Christ will escape that fate. The verse says that ALL liars WILL be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the 2nd death.

It doesn't say "Only SOME liars will be there, but other liars won't because Jesus atoned for the sins of those other liars."

It seems to me that it must be talking about all unrepentant liars, murderers, etc. And the reason those people will end up in the 2nd death won't be because Jesus refused to die for them. It will be because Jesus WAS willing to die for them, and DID die for them, but they didn't want to repent and follow Christ, which would allow that payment to save them.

This reminded me of a quote I just read on that *other* board, wherein a non-LDS stated:

"This is the second aspect of the gospel of grace. First, all of your sins have been taken care of, washed, and forgiven because of your faith in Jesus Christ. Second, God looks at you as righteous because of your believing in Jesus Christ. Apart from what you are doing or not doing, apart from keeping any code of ethics, God is imputing righteousness to your account because you believe upon Jesus Christ."

It appears that they believe that once you have accepted Jesus as savior, God only sees them as being righteous even if they do not keep any of the commandments. That is an interesting concept. I realize that their comeback is "but a true believer will WANT to obey the commandments", but that doesn't explain the problem in their ideology that basically supports the notion that some people call a "license to sin".

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Sir

"This is the second aspect of the gospel of grace. First, all of your sins have been taken care of, washed, and forgiven because of your faith in Jesus Christ. Second, God looks at you as righteous because of your believing in Jesus Christ.

This is called justification by faith and it includes Christs' righteousness imputed to us when we place our faith in Christ. You believe that your righteousness comes from your own purity and works which is why we say that you believe in works righteousness

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Sir

It appears that they believe that once you have accepted Jesus as savior, God only sees them as being righteous even if they do not keep any of the commandments. That is an interesting concept. I realize that their comeback is "but a true believer will WANT to obey the commandments", but that doesn't explain the problem in their ideology that basically supports the notion that some people call a "license to sin".

That is a straw man argument Sir because Christians don't believe that we have a "license to sin".

Christians and Mormons both believe that we should follow the commandments and do good works. Were we differ is that you believe in addition to your faith you work to obtain salvation/exhalation. Christians on the other hand believe that our salvation is based on faith in Christ.

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by Sir

This reminded me of a quote I just read on that *other* board,...

What's going on over at that other board? I can't even read posts anymore, since you now need to be a member in good standing just to read posts. And they won't ever give me that right again for as long as I live, apparently. That's how much they hated me I guess.

[Sir]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

What's going on over at that other board? I can't even read posts anymore, since you now need to be a member in good standing just to read posts. And they won't ever give me that right again for as long as I live, apparently. That's how much they hated me I guess.

I don't go there (or here) much any more. All the same. I just posted a little tonight and got the same combative responses from the hyper-critical. There really isn't a desire to dialogue as much as the want and need to argue and one-up. I'm fine with that. It's interesting to be away for a bit and then come back. You see questions as reasonable and offer reasonable responses, but those who are there in the trenches everyday are hardened and ready to pounce on any post you make, looking for a fight.

So it goes.

I rather enjoy the time away. Sadly I do come back to see if there is anything new to think about or entertain, but the same posters simply create the same threads with the same arguments so even that gets boring.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Sir

Sadly I do come back to see if there is anything new to think about or entertain, but the same posters simply create the same threads with the same arguments so even that gets boring.

Do you really expect any more new information than we already have? The same major issues are still there and still the major reasons that Christians believe Mormons are not Christian, namely you believe in false gods and follow a false gospel. Most of the other stuff is trivial in comparison.

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Both are sinners like the rest of us and deserving of death. However those who come to Christ by faith will be saved from their sins.

So you're saying that Moses the Murderer came to Christ, and was therefore saved from his sins. What Bible are you quoting from? And what % of Christianity agrees with you that OT Jews came to Christ?

[RealFakeHair]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

So you're saying that Moses the Murderer came to Christ, and was therefore saved from his sins. What Bible are you quoting from? And what % of Christianity agrees with you that OT Jews came to Christ?

Now that's funny!
What % of mormons really, I mean really believe the word (christian) was used in pre-Columbus America 100 of years before the word was first used in Antioch?

Please jeff, don't say you believe in such BS.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

So you're saying that Moses the Murderer came to Christ, and was therefore saved from his sins.

Moses was saved and so was David and both looked forward to the coming Messiah which is Christ.