The tally of Biblical quotes

[nrajeffreturns]

You said, referring to Moses and Paul: "those who come to Christ by faith will be saved from their sins."

So was Moses a Christian? Yes or no? Many people say he was a Jew. And many people say that Judaism is not the same religion as Christianity.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

You said, referring to Moses and Paul: "those who come to Christ by faith will be saved from their sins."

So was Moses a Christian? Yes or no? Many people say he was a Jew. And many people say that Judaism is not the same religion as Christianity.

Moses looked forward to the Messiah which is Christ and was saved by placing his trust in Him for salvation. Paul was saved when he place his trust in Christ to save him. Both those in the OT and the NT are saved by placing their trust in Christ--for those in the OT it was the coming Messiah.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

You said, referring to Moses and Paul: "those who come to Christ by faith will be saved from their sins."

Now your turn. Lets look at OT believers--was Moses and David saved and if so what was the basis for their salvation?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

So was Moses a Christian? Yes or no? Many people say he was a Jew. And many people say that Judaism is not the same religion as Christianity.

Because of David's transgressions, his eternal blessings were taken from him (TPJS, pp. 188-89). The Lord granted David a continuation of life for another twenty-one years, perhaps because of his immediate and deep remorse (cf. Ps. 51), his acts of repentance, and his continued faithfulness to Jehovah (2 Sam. 12:13, 16; cf. WJS, p. 335). However, he must await in the spirit prison the redemption promised to him (Acts 2:34; WJS, p. 74). Even with the ***urance of the Lord's ultimate mercy (Ps. 86:13), David lost much that God had given him on earth, he fell "from his exaltation" and his wives were given unto another" (D&C 132:39). Yet his personal integrity appears in his insistence that he be punished in place of his people, whom he saw in vision being destroyed (2 Sam. 24:15-17).

LDS believe that David lost his exaltation and must wait in "spirit prison". Certainly you must believe that David was a man of faith. Wouldn't it be fair to say that the reason that David is in "spirit prison" is because he didn't enough works to earn his exaltation?

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by Billyray

LDS believe that David lost his exaltation and must wait in "spirit prison". Certainly you must believe that David was a man of faith.

His faith apparently wasn't strong enough to keep him from being a murderer in order to cover up his adultery.

Wouldn't it be fair to say that the reason that David is in "spirit prison" is because he didn't enough works to earn his exaltation?

I think it would be more fair to say about him what Paul warned the Hebrews about:

If he sinned wilfully after he had received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation.

Paul also taught that it is impossible for him who was once enlightened, and had tasted of the heavenly gift, and was made a partaker of the Holy Ghost & had tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

if he fell away, to renew him again unto repentance.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

I think it would be more fair to say about him what Paul warned the Hebrews about:

If he sinned wilfully after he had received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation.

Paul also taught that it is impossible for him who was once enlightened, and had tasted of the heavenly gift, and was made a partaker of the Holy Ghost & had tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

if he fell away, to renew him again unto repentance.

You have completely botched that section of scripture but that is for a different discussion. So would you say that given heaven or hell that David will end up in hell?

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by Billyray

You have completely botched that section of scripture

Have I?

Explain how those verses DON'T apply to David. Here, I'll make it easy for you to answer:

1. Are you saying Davd DIDN'T sin willfully after he had received the knowledge of the truth? Because if he did, then Paul says there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation.

2. Are you saying David HADN'T been enlightened and tasted of the heavenly gift, and been made a partaker of the Holy Ghost & tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come? Because if he had and then fell away then it is impossible for him to renew him again unto repentance.

So tell me how those verses don't apply to David. If you can.

So would you say that given heaven or hell that David will end up in hell?

Aren't you asking me the wrong question, since you're asking me to answer as if I were a Calvinist who only believes in those 2 extremes?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

Have I?

Explain how those verses DON'T apply to David.

Because David trusted in the Messiah and was saved.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

Billyray
So would you say that given heaven or hell that David will end up in hell?

Jeff
Aren't you asking me the wrong question, since you're asking me to answer as if I were a Calvinist who only believes in those 2 extremes?

No I am asking you the right question because the Bible speaks about a heaven and a hell. Not about a tiered level of heaven where some go to heaven and yet are separated from God the Father. Here's my question again for you.

So would you say that David will end up in heaven or hell?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

If he sinned wilfully after he had received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

Peter willfully sinned when rejected Christ three times--even after he was given advanced warning. Are you saying that it is YOUR belief that "there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins" for Peter and that he is also in Hell with David?

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Because David trusted in the Messiah and was saved.

So you're saying that David DID NOT sin willfully after he had received the knowledge of the truth?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

So you're saying that David DID NOT sin willfully after he had received the knowledge of the truth?

David is a sinner, you are a sinner, and I am a sinner. LDS seem to have a hard time with this concept.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Peter willfully sinned when rejected Christ three times--even after he was given advanced warning. Are you saying that it is YOUR belief that "there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins" for Peter and that he is also in Hell with David?

Jeff are you going to answer this question or are you going to p***?

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by Billyray

David is a sinner, you are a sinner, and I am a sinner. LDS seem to have a hard time with this concept.

But you don't believe that MY sinning has occurred after I got a knowledge of the truth. You put you and David into the category of "people who willfully sinned after they got a knowledge of the truth, had partaken of the Holy Spirit, etc."


So when David committed his sins of adultery and murder to cover up the adultery, you're saying that it was NOT a case of willfully sinning after he had received the knowledge of the truth?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

But you don't believe that MY sinning has occurred after I got a knowledge of the truth.

That is certainly true Jeff because you don't hold to the truth. But you have been given the truth over and over again so you do have a knowledge of the truth--but you have chosen to reject it thus far.

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

You put you and David into the category of "people who willfully sinned after they got a knowledge of the truth, had partaken of the Holy Spirit, etc."

That is correct. But you have botched the interpretation of the verse that you are quoting. ANYONE who comes to Christ (or the coming Messiah in the case of David) and places their faith in Him to save them will be saved. BTW if you are going to condemn David then you have to equally condemn Peter fro denying Christ 3 times and anyone else for that matter.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Peter willfully sinned when rejected Christ three times--even after he was given advanced warning. Are you saying that it is YOUR belief that "there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins" for Peter and that he is also in Hell with David?

Are you ever going to get around to answering my question?

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by Billyray

That is certainly true Jeff because you don't hold to the truth.

But you, as a good Calvinist, believe that us unregenerated, unsaved folks are not even ABLE to come to a knowledge of the truth in our current state of unsaved-ness. Right? So I am not at a stage where there is "no more sacrifice" for MY sins, according to your Calvinism. According to you, I haven't been "enlightened and tasted of the heavenly gift, and been made a partaker of the Holy Ghost & tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come"---right? Therefore, even if I fall away it is still possible for me to be "renewed again unto repentance."

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

But you, as a good Calvinist, believe that us unregenerated, unsaved folks are not even ABLE to come to a knowledge of the truth in our current state of unsaved-ness. Right? So I am not at a stage where there is "no more sacrifice" for MY sins, according to your Calvinism. According to you, I haven't been "enlightened and tasted of the heavenly gift, and been made a partaker of the Holy Ghost & tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come"---right? Therefore, even if I fall away it is still possible for me to be "renewed again unto repentance."

Jeff I believe what the Bible teaches not extraBiblical teachings, you would, and you would label my beliefs as Calvinist. If you have a specific question about what I believe I would be happy to discuss it and show you the verses that form the basis for my beliefs. You keep quoting Heb 6:4-8 and below is the ESV Study Bible commentary on these verses. I hold to the second position.

ESV Study Bible
Heb. 6:4–8
This p***age has been subject to substantially different interpretations. The central debate concerns whether the descriptions of vv. 4–5 (e.g., “enlightened,” “tasted the heavenly gift,” “shared in the Holy Spirit,” “tasted of the goodness of the word of God”) depict people who were once true Christians. (1) Some argue these phrases do describe true Christians, implying that Christians can “fall away” and lose their salvation (cf. note on 3:14, however, indicating a fundamental difficulty with this view). Nonetheless, most who advocate this view hold that some who backslide can still return to Christian faith, thus limiting 6:4–6 to hardened cases of apostasy in which it is “impossible … to restore them again to repentance” (vv. 4, 6). (2) Most argue, however, that although these people may have participated fully in the Christian covenantal community (where they experienced enlightened instruction in the Word of God, where they saw public repentance occur, and where the Holy Spirit was at work in powerful ways), when such people do “fall away” it is clear that they are not true Christians because they have not made a true, saving response to the gospel, resulting in genuine faith, love, and perseverance (vv. 9–12). Significantly, they are like land that received much rain but bore no good fruit, only “thorns and thistles” (v. 8). They may have participated outwardly in the Christian community and they even may have shared in the blessings of Christian fellowship; but, like the seed that fell on rocky ground in the parable of the sower, “they have no root” (Mark 4:17) and they “fall away” when faced with persecution. . . ."

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

So when David committed his sins of adultery and murder to cover up the adultery, you're saying that it was NOT a case of willfully sinning after he had received the knowledge of the truth?

I take it that you believe that David will end up in hell. Is that a fair ***essment of your position?

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by Billyray

I take it that you believe that David will end up in hell. Is that a fair ***essment of your position?

You asked me previously to answer as if I were a modern mainstreamer who only believed in the 2 extremes of heaven and hell. So if you want me to pretend to be a modern mainstreamer while I answer your question, then based on my reading of THE TEXT of BIBLE and not a commentary, my answer would be: In hell.

After all, David was a Jew, and us mainstreamers all know that Judaism follows the Law with all its works-based salvation, right? Plus, David showed no evidence that he was a Trinitarian, so right there he's in trouble, since you MUST faithfully believe in the Trinity in order to be saved, according to the Athanasian Creed. Plus, looking at David's life history, he had experienced tons of miracles and seen God's hand at work in many ways, starting with the Goliath miracle. So when, as an adult and king of Israel, he had his faithful soldier Uriah killed in order to cover up the adultery with Uriah's wife Bathsheba, it's evidence that "he never was a Christian" like you guys say about Bart Ehrman and maybe Pastor Ted.

So, to summarize: Looks like David is with his buddy Samson, who ALSO went from mighty hero to big zero because of "the wandering eye."

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

So if you want me to pretend to be a modern mainstreamer while I answer your question, then based on my reading of THE TEXT of BIBLE and not a commentary, my answer would be: In hell.

So do you believe David's child who died is in hell WITH him?

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by Billyray

So do you believe David's child who died is in hell WITH him?

Of course not. It would be absurd to believe that. David believed his kid was in heaven, and he hoped that when he died he would join his kid in heaven. What the Bible fails to tell us is whether David's hope turned out to be true.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

Of course not.

The verse never said that he would hope that he would be with his son. If you believe that David went to hell then you must also hold that his son did as well.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Peter willfully sinned when rejected Christ three times--even after he was given advanced warning. Are you saying that it is YOUR belief that "there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins" for Peter and that he is also in Hell with David?

Bump for Jeff

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by Billyray

The verse never said that he would hope that he would be with his son.

That was his belief. Obviously it was his hope, since it would end in the happy reunion in heaven. So obviously he hoped it would come true.

If you believe that David went to hell then you must also hold that his son did as well.

Actually, no, I am not required to believe that.