The tally of Biblical quotes

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

That was his belief. Obviously it was his hope, since it would end in the happy reunion in heaven. So obviously he hoped it would come true.

2 Samuel 12:23 But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shallgo to him, but he shall not return to me.

Jeff now you are making stuff up because you were backed into a corner on this one.

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by Billyray

2 Samuel 12:23 But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shallgo to him, but he shall not return to me.

You're taking that as an inspired prophetic prediction, when it's just as probable that it was an emotional statement. He didn't say "Thus saith the Lord, I will definitely go to heaven and hang out with my dead son, despite the horrible crimes I committed." And by the way: Do you believe that everything David said was true?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

You're taking that as an inspired prophetic prediction, when it's just as probable that it was an emotional statement. He didn't say "Thus saith the Lord, I will definitely go to heaven and hang out with my dead son, despite the horrible crimes I committed." And by the way: Do you believe that everything David said was true?

You didn't seem to have a problem using David's words to support the position that children who die go to heaven. That is a major problem with Mormonism--it trains you to disavow God's word. In this case you are taught that David wasn't saved which makes it easy for you to disavow anything he says.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Billyray

No the verse doesn't say that but the NT makes it clear that every single one of us are sinners and we will be judged by God's laws and we will all fall short.

Well--if we all fall short--then no one will be saved.

What the Bible does state is that all will be judged according to our works--after death--and that for life or ****ation:


John 5:28-29---King James Version (KJV)


28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.


If those who "done good" receive of life--then how did they fall short?

The only hope than any one of us has is to place our trust in Christ to save us.

Are these among those who place their trust in Christ?


1 John 1:7---King James Version (KJV)


7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

Those who do will be saved and those who depend on their own works will be judged and come up short.

Again--how do those who do good come up short? Short of what?


John 5:28-29---King James Version (KJV)


28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Well--if we all fall short--then no one will be saved.

Romans 4:5However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Romans 4:5However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.

But that is a reference to Abraham and those who lived under the gospel--not those who lived under the Law of works--the Mosaic Law. Abraham was given God's grace due to his obedience under the gospel--not the law of works:



Genesis 26:4-5---King James Version (KJV)


4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;

5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.




God justified all men of life--the ungodly alike--in His Atonement:


Romans 5:18---King James Version (KJV)


18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

But that is a reference to Abraham and those who lived under the gospel--

Romans 4:5However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.

Then you are in agreement that the ungodly are justified by faith and not by works such as Abraham and those who live under the gospel. Good to see we are in agreement.

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Romans 4:5However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.

Then you are in agreement that the ungodly are justified by faith and not by works such as Abraham and those who live under the gospel. Good to see we are in agreement.

But Abraham was not ungodly, right? So who are these ungodly people the scripture mentions? Maybe it's all those Mormons who don't believe everything you believe about God, but have a lot of faith.

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

But Abraham was not ungodly, right? So who are these ungodly people the scripture mentions? Maybe it's all those Mormons who don't believe everything you believe about God, but have a lot of faith.

Abram was ungodly just like all other men until the day that faith was found in his heart and God counted it for righteousness (Gen 15:6). Then because God made him righteous Abram became a godly man. Abram was ungodly until God changed him. As we trust God He changes us from ungodly to godly just as He did Abram..

The LDS are filled with faith in a god that is NOT present in the Bible.. It's the same thing as having faith in an old frayed rope. It never failed you before but when you really need it it breaks.. IHS jim

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by James Banta

Abram was ungodly just like all other men until the day that faith was found in his heart and God counted it for righteousness (Gen 15:6). Then because God made him righteous Abram became a godly man.

So was Abram ungodly on the day God told him to slaughter his son? Was that the day Abram became godly through obedience and doing a work? And do you agree with Billy that Jesus is not the only way to salvation?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

But Abraham was not ungodly, right? So who are these ungodly people the scripture mentions? Maybe it's all those Mormons who don't believe everything you believe about God, but have a lot of faith.

We are ALL sinners Jeff. For some reason you still don't seem to get that.

Romans 4:5However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.

Tell me what this verse says?

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by Billyray

We are ALL sinners Jeff. For some reason you still don't seem to get that.

What about that Chinese baby who was flushed down the sewer pipe by his parents because they didn't want to pay the "baby tax"? What sins did that baby commit, that made him a sinner as you claim?

Romans 4:5However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.
Tell me what this verse says?

Well, the JST says that it's mistranslated or mistransmitted. JST says that God justifies NOT the ungodly, which makes a lot more sense and agrees with other Bible verses that say that justification comes by doing GOOD things, such as obeying, having faith, etc.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

What about that Chinese baby who was flushed down the sewer pipe by his parents because they didn't want to pay the "baby tax"? What sins did that baby commit, that made him a sinner as you claim?

Let's take your point of view for a moment. A baby/child is perfectly obedient to the law--but does not place his or her faith in Christ. Is the basis of salvation for that baby/child his own works of the law?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

Well, the JST says that it's mistranslated or mistransmitted. JST says that God justifies NOT the ungodly, which makes a lot more sense and agrees with other Bible verses that say that justification comes by doing GOOD things, such as obeying, having faith, etc.

Romans 4:5However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.

So the LDS way around this verse--since it contradicts the LDS works righteousness--is to say that this was "mistransmitted". Do you have any evidence for this?

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Let's take your point of view for a moment. A baby/child is perfectly obedient to the law--but does not place his or her faith in Christ. Is the basis of salvation for that baby/child his own works of the law?

Uh, babies aren't able to obey or disobey the commandments because they don't yet have the ability to read or understand the language it would take to explain the commandments to them. Or do you really think that a 1-year-old can understand what "Thou shalt not commit adultery" means?

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Romans 4:5However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.

So the LDS way around this verse--since it contradicts the LDS works righteousness--is to say that this was "mistransmitted". Do you have any evidence for this?

Sure: "In the JST Romans 4:5 reads, "But to him that seeketh not to be justified by the law of works, but believeth on him who justifieth not the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness."


http://www.mrm.org/faith-alone-in-jst

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

Sure: "In the JST Romans 4:5 reads, "But to him that seeketh not to be justified by the law of works, but believeth on him who justifieth not the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness."


http://www.mrm.org/faith-alone-in-jst

Do any of the thousands of ancient m****cripts support Joseph's translation?


Romans 4
1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.


Let's look at the verse in question and see if Joseph's translation fits with the surrounding verses. Do you think that it fits?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

Uh, babies aren't able to obey or disobey the commandments because they don't yet have the ability to read or understand the language it would take to explain the commandments to them. Or do you really think that a 1-year-old can understand what "Thou shalt not commit adultery" means?

If they are sinless then they are by definition obeying the laws of God. Right?

So do you believe that the basis for salvation for babies/children is their perfect obedience to the laws of God?

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by Billyray

If they are sinless then they are by definition obeying the laws of God. Right?

Or it just means that the fetus or baby is unable to sin, and is therefore sinless by definition.

So do you believe that the basis for salvation for babies/children is their perfect obedience to the laws of God?

If they have committed no sins, they don't really deserve an eternity in hell, IMO. Do you think my position is wrong?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

Or it just means that the fetus or baby is unable to sin, and is therefore sinless by definition.

Which is what I said that they are obeying the laws of God. Right?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

If they have committed no sins, they don't really deserve an eternity in hell, IMO. Do you think my position is wrong?

So do you believe that the basis for salvation for babies/children is their perfect obedience to the laws of God NOT based on Christ and his sacrifice?

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Which is what I said that they are obeying the laws of God. Right?

Are they helping the poor and needy?

[Apologette]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

Are they helping the poor and needy?

Infants and children are saved under the Atonement which encomp***es all the Old Testmanet sacrifices, including "sins of innocence".

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by Apologette

Infants and children are saved under the Atonement which encomp***es all the Old Testmanet sacrifices, including "sins of innocence".

While us LDS obviously agree with your belief that infants and very young children are saved thanks to the atonement if they die in their innocent years--a 'grace period' so to speak--I fear that some Evangelicals might disagree with you (and us LDS) on this.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

While us LDS obviously agree with your belief that infants and very young children are saved thanks to the atonement if they die in their innocent years--

But you believe that these children are sinless. What sins did Christ pay for if they were indeed without sin?