The tally of Biblical quotes

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

Oh, I did answer and REFUTE your false belief that babies need to be punished.

No Jeff you didn't answer my question. Here it is again for you.

Originally Posted by Billyray

Proverbs 22:15 Foolishness is bound up in the heart of a child; The rod of discipline will remove it far from him.

Jeff if you believe that a child doesn't sin why discipline him?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

So you agree that God made you good, just like He made Adam and Eve good? Better watch it--that's an LDS belief,,not orthodox Calvinism. Calvinists, Inc. may revoke your membership!

. . .
. . .

"Calvinism denies human free will and makes God responsible for evil"

God is not responsible for the evil that is accomplished by the free will actionsof fallen people. Remember, free will is the ability to make choices and unbelievers make choices consistent with their fallen natures. They openly choose to accomplish evil deeds in contradiction to God's Word. They are openly and freely rebelling against God. God did not make them sinful. He did not make them rebellious. therefore, God is not responsible for the evil but they accomplish.
God made Adam who was good. Adam was not bound by its sinful nature and freely chose to rebel against God. Because of his rebellion, he fell. His body was physically affected by sin. Likewise, his children inherited the sinful nature and depravity of mind, soul, art, body, motions, etc. and are under the proclaimed revelation of God concerning their fallen state. Nevertheless, God made Adam good and Adam chose to rebel. We inherited the sinful nature and the unbeliever, the unregenerate can only act in accordance with his own fall in nature. In other words, he cannot choose to freely follow God because that is a good thing to do. Since he is a slave of sin, does not seek for God and does not understand spiritual things, he is not able to freely choose God.

http://www.calvinistcorner.com/answers/freewill.htm
Matthew J. Slick, B.A., M. Div., 1998-2006

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns View Post If you actually advocate disciplining (PUNISHING) a 3-day-old baby for the "sin" of crying due to hunger, pain, or fear, then someone needs to report you to Child Protective Services.

Originally Posted by Apologette

[COLOR="#FF0000"]Yes , and the real God of the New Testament would never, ever ask anybody to believe a pedophile

How are you relating a three day old baby to this?

[nrajeffreturns]

Hmmmm...great point, Dberrie. Why should we believe people who advocate child abuse (punishing 3-day-old babies)??

Following child abusers seems like what cultists would do...so Calvinism seems like a dangerous cult.

[Apologette]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

Hmmmm...great point, Dberrie. Why should we believe people who advocate child abuse (punishing 3-day-old babies)??

Following child abusers seems like what cultists would do...so Calvinism seems like a dangerous cult.

Aren't you aware that Calvinists, and all other Christians, believe that babies are received into heaven? What is wrong with you, Jeff. Are you so ig-norant of Christianity? I don't think so, because I've told you this numerous times before. So are you just purposely misrepresenting Christianity? Wouldn't that come under the heading of dishonesty? That's one of the things you promise NOT to be in the "temple," right? And talking about Child Abuse, why don't you condemn the pedophile prophet, Joe Smith. Too bad he was killed - I'd have liked him to have spent the last years of his miserable life languishing in prison for sexual molestation.

[theway]

Originally Posted by Apologette

Aren't you aware that Calvinists, and all other Christians, believe that babies are received into heaven? What is wrong with you, Jeff.

Is this some kind of "No true Scotsman Fallacy" where everyone who doesn't believe your view is not a Christan?
In any case, this belief (excuse) of yours causes a problem for you once again.
If you believe that babies are automatically saved then you must believe that even faith is not required for Salvation; plus it forces you to accept another contradiction to your beliefs, that babies are innocent and therefore free from sin.

You just seem full of contradiction today CA.

Originally Posted by Apologette

Are you so ig-norant of Christianity? I don't think so, because I've told you this numerous times before. So are you just purposely misrepresenting Christianity? Wouldn't that come under the heading of dishonesty? .

No CA, it appears you are the one who is ig-norant of Christianity. Why do you think they started infant baptism in the first place?

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

So you agree that God made you good, just like He made Adam and Eve good? Better watch it--that's an LDS belief,,not orthodox Calvinism. Calvinists, Inc. may revoke your membership!

The spirit God formed within me (Zech 12:1) was good. The flesh that came about through the act of procreation is tainted by sin. It was formed in sin (Psalm 51:5). It contaminated my mind and my heart.. By the time I drew my first breath it was the soul characteristic of my being. Is that good? My spirit formed by God, yes. The sin contaminated flesh no.. This means all people must have two births one of the flesh and one of the spirit. A natural , and a spiritual. without both we only have the birth of that which is contaminated and not pure..

Mormonism is not wrong about everything. Just those things that are capable of bringing eternal life.. They are wrong about babies entering the world pure. They are still nothing more than sinners from that first breath.. While God is perfect and all His creation good, man is contaminated by sin from the first the time our first parents disobeyed God in trying to become like Him by their own efforts. Since that day death and sin have ruled our hearts, our minds and our whole world.. Death and sin have stained all that have entered the world since.. Do infants die? Of course. Therefore they too are under the stain of sin. If that were not so never would a baby under age 8 ever die.. Are you sure this is LDS doctrine? If only it were that would put mormonism a step closer to truth..

So did God make everything evil. Hardly, man in his sin did that! IHS jim

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Billyray

. . .
. . .

YES and because God is perfect the spirit He formed within us was perfect and then was contaminated by sin and death even before a child is even born.. IHS jim

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by Apologette

Aren't you aware that Calvinists, and all other Christians, believe that babies are received into heaven?

Aren't YOU aware that Billy believes that ALL humans, including babies, have sinned, with no exceptions? Are you saying that Billy isn't a Christian (the No True Scotsman fallacy that TheWay referred to) because he disagrees with you on this and subscribes to hypercalvinism? How can those babies who die in infancy all make it to heaven if they are all sinners? What about the limited atonement theory--shouldn't it conclude that Jesus didn't die for most of those babies ?

What is wrong with you, Jeff.

Don't you mean "What is wrong with Billy?" ?

Are you so ig-norant of Christianity?

Are you claiming that if Billy had studied Christianity, he'd realize that all babies who die in infancy get eternal life?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

Aren't YOU aware that Billy believes that ALL humans, including babies, have sinned, with no exceptions? Are you saying that Billy isn't a Christian (the No True Scotsman fallacy that TheWay referred to) because he disagrees with you on this and subscribes to hypercalvinism? How can those babies who die in infancy all make it to heaven if they are all sinners? What about the limited atonement theory--shouldn't it conclude that Jesus didn't die for most of those babies ?


Don't you mean "What is wrong with Billy?" ?


Are you claiming that if Billy had studied Christianity, he'd realize that all babies who die in infancy get eternal life?

It is true that ALL have sinned including children. But then you changed subject and ***umed this meant that babies who die don't go to heaven. These are separate issues. We have discussed this at length at you know my position on this which is that children who die will go to heaven and I gave David's child as an example of this. So either you have a really bad memory OR you are being dishonest. Which one is it Jeff?

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

How can those babies who die in infancy all make it to heaven if they are all sinners?

Everyone who makes it to heaven is a sinner (except God of course) and that our justification is based on our faith in Christ. Did you forget that?

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by James Banta

The spirit God formed within me (Zech 12:1) was good...God is perfect and all His creation good..Mormonism is wrong about babies entering the world pure.

Hello? Anyone see a problem with that last statement when compared to the first 2 statements?

Do infants die? Of course. Therefore they too are under the stain of sin.

Uh, no. Despite what your Calvinism teaches, babies die for a variety of reasons, but one thing they do NOT die from is their own sins. Babies die because other people KILL them. Or because of germs in the world, or accidents.

So did God make everything evil. Hardly, man in his sin did that! IHS jim

So man is more powerful than God?

[Apologette]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

Aren't YOU aware that Billy believes that ALL humans, including babies, have sinned, with no exceptions? Are you saying that Billy isn't a Christian (the No True Scotsman fallacy that TheWay referred to) because he disagrees with you on this and subscribes to hypercalvinism? How can those babies who die in infancy all make it to heaven if they are all sinners? What about the limited atonement theory--shouldn't it conclude that Jesus didn't die for most of those babies ?


Don't you mean "What is wrong with Billy?" ?


Are you claiming that if Billy had studied Christianity, he'd realize that all babies who die in infancy get eternal life?

I've talked to you plenty of times about this, so you know the answer. You will find the answer by studying the Old Testament sacrifices. Do some study on your own.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by theway

Is this some kind of "No true Scotsman Fallacy" where everyone who doesn't believe your view is not a Christan?

Who disagreed with what she said?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

Uh, no. Despite what your Calvinism teaches, babies die for a variety of reasons, but one thing they do NOT die from is their own sins. Babies die because other people KILL them. Or because of germs in the world, or accidents.

Jeff are you going to admit that you lied about what I believe?

Originally Posted by Billyray

It is true that ALL have sinned including children. But then you changed subject and ***umed this meant that babies who die don't go to heaven. These are separate issues. We have discussed this at length at you know my position on this which is that children who die will go to heaven and I gave David's child as an example of this. So either you have a really bad memory OR you are being dishonest. Which one is it Jeff?

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Jeff are you going to admit that you lied about what I believe?

Why would I want to admit to something I think I haven't done? Punishing people for sins they didn't commit: Sounds pretty Calvinistic to me!

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

Why would I want to admit to something I think I haven't done? Punishing people for sins they didn't commit: Sounds pretty Calvinistic to me!

Jeff what point is there for me to discuss these issue with you when you simply flat out lie about what I believe?

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Jeff are you going to admit that you lied about what I believe?

Billy, are you going to admit that I never said ANYTHING about punishing babies IN HELL, and that the "IN HELL" part was ADDED BY YOU TO CREATE A STRAW MAN?


a) Yes, you will admit it

b) No, you refuse to admit it

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

Billy, are you going to admit that I never said ANYTHING about punishing babies IN HELL, and that the "IN HELL" part was ADDED BY YOU TO CREATE A STRAW MAN?

Let's look at what you said. I included Apologette's post that you quoted.

Originally Posted by Apologette

Aren't you aware that Calvinists, and all other Christians, believe that babies are received into heaven?

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

. . . Are you saying that Billy isn't a Christian (the No True Scotsman fallacy that TheWay referred to) because he disagrees with you on this and subscribes to hypercalvinism? How can those babies who die in infancy all make it to heaven if they are all sinners? What about the limited atonement theory--shouldn't it conclude that Jesus didn't die for most of those babies ? . . .Are you claiming that if Billy had studied Christianity, he'd realize that all babies who die in infancy get eternal life?

Originally Posted by Billyray

It is true that ALL have sinned including children. But then you changed subject and ***umed this meant that babies who die don't go to heaven. These are separate issues. We have discussed this at length at you know my position on this which is that children who die will go to heaven and I gave David's child as an example of this. So either you have a really bad memory OR you are being dishonest. Which one is it Jeff?

Everyone who makes it to heaven is a sinner (except God of course) and that our justification is based on our faith in Christ. Did you forget that?

Are you ever going to admit that you lied about my position Jeff?

[nrajeffreturns]

So let's try to nail down what your belief IS, Billy:

What % of babies who die in infancy will get eternal life?

Billy's answer: ____ %

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

So let's try to nail down what your belief IS, Billy:

What % of babies who die in infancy will get eternal life?

Billy's answer: ____ %

Are you ever going to admit that you lied about my position Jeff?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

So let's try to nail down what your belief IS, Billy:

What % of babies who die in infancy will get eternal life?

Billy's answer: ____ %

Originally Posted by Billyray

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

a) you and/or Billy don't believe that infants who die in infancy have committed any sins;
b) you and/or Billy DO believe that infants who die in infancy have committed sins, but you believe those infants will still be saved and go to heaven, even though they never got a chance to learn about and accept Jesus before they died.


Is either "a" or "b" the reason why you took exception to dberrie's post? If so, which was the correct reason?

I believe ALL have sinned thus infants have sinned. The Bible doesn't have a lot to say about the fate of infants who die with respect to salvation.

If you want my personal opinion which is not based on the Bible I will be happy to give that to you. My personal opinion is that infants sin but that they are not accountable for their sins and will be saved. But this is not something that I can support from the Bible.

As I said in a prior post you have either completely lost your memory of our conversation on this exact subject OR you are simply lying about my position. If you are honest with me and tell me that you are losing my memory I will at least understand. But I highly suspect that this is not the case and that you are simply flat out lying. The fact that you have resorted to this type of behavior shows me that you can't defend your faith and you will use any tactic that you--can even something as deceptive as this. It is pretty obvious that here we are on the Mormon board and you and DB do not want to talk about Mormonism--rather you want to talk mostly about Calvinism, and that is fine by me because I know that I can support it from the Bible. But your false religion runs counter in many ways to what is plainly taught in God's word so i don't blame you for not wanting to talk about it because you can't defend it.

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Are you ever going to admit that you lied about my position Jeff?

Sure: As soon as I actually do lie about it, I will be happy to admit it.

Now, FOCUS on answering the question that IS about your beliefs:

What % of babies who die in infancy will get eternal life?

Billy's answer: ____ %

(Your answer doesn't need to be exact, unless it's 0 or 100. In all other cases, you can give an approximate percentage.)

After you actually give an honest, to-the-point answer, we can move on to your question about punishing (you used the word "discipline") little kids such as babies.

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

Sure: As soon as I actually do lie about it, I will be happy to admit it.

Now, FOCUS on answering the question that IS about your beliefs:

What % of babies who die in infancy will get eternal life?

Billy's answer: ____ %

(Your answer doesn't need to be exact, unless it's 0 or 100. In all other cases, you can give an approximate percentage.)

After you actually give an honest, to-the-point answer, we can move on to your question about punishing (you used the word "discipline") little kids such as babies.

What did Jesus say about how He will deal with newborns, or even young children that die in their youth?

Matthew 19:14
But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come to me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.

Just because we believe in the whole of the Bible and know that all have sinned and have fallen short of the glory of God doesn't mean that we reject the rest of the text.. Yes young children are covered by the redemptive power of the blood of the Lord. This doesn't mean that within them is the human heart that is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked (Jer 17:9). It must be made clean before a Holy God. An action that ONLY cost the life of the Lord of glory.. Just because they share the same nature as the rest of mankind doesn't mean that the Lord can't have mercy toward them.. IHS

[nrajeffreturns]

So while Billy is taking a long time to come up with HIS answer, James has kindly offered one of his own:

What % of babies who die in infancy will get eternal life?

Jim's answer: 100 %

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

So while Billy is taking a long time to come up with HIS answer, James has kindly offered one of his own:

What % of babies who die in infancy will get eternal life?

Jim's answer: 100 %

Jeff I have ALREADY given you my position on this multiple times now. Either you are having a difficulty with your memory or you are being deceitful. Why play these games Jeff. What good does it bring to you? It certainly doesn't put a good light on LDS members.

Originally Posted by Billyray

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

a) you and/or Billy don't believe that infants who die in infancy have committed any sins;
b) you and/or Billy DO believe that infants who die in infancy have committed sins, but you believe those infants will still be saved and go to heaven, even though they never got a chance to learn about and accept Jesus before they died.


Is either "a" or "b" the reason why you took exception to dberrie's post? If so, which was the correct reason?

I believe ALL have sinned thus infants have sinned. The Bible doesn't have a lot to say about the fate of infants who die with respect to salvation.

If you want my personal opinion which is not based on the Bible I will be happy to give that to you. My personal opinion is that infants sin but that they are not accountable for their sins and will be saved. But this is not something that I can support from the Bible.

Jeff