The washing of regeneration and water baptism

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

It's certainly strong evidence when they are in unison about water baptism being the born again experience referenced in John3:5--and the point of regeneration.

And so your answer to my question "Do you believe the early church fathers OR just selectively?" is. . .?

I am still waiting.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

http://www.truthmagazine.com/archive...GOT034331.html

Could you provide me with a link that works?

Now to address your post. The above quotes that you gave me were from modern day writers. Since I can give you a list of writers who say that T-itus 3:5 is NOT speaking about water baptism how do you determine which list is correct?

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by Billyray

And so your answer to my question "Do you believe the early church fathers OR just selectively?" is. . .?
I am still waiting.

A bad question. You need to make it logical, and say "Do you believe everything that[ B] every [/B] church father taught?"

I personally answer that question with a simple "no."

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

A bad question. You need to make it logical, and say "Do you believe everything that[ B] every [/B] church father taught?"

I personally answer that question with a simple "no."

So which parts do you believe and which parts do you reject and what is the basis for that decision?

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by Billyray

So which parts do you believe and which parts do you reject and what is the basis for that decision?

The way I decide is: I alternate between even and odd page numbers--even number = believe, odd number = reject. I considered playing "rock, paper, scissors" to decide, but I ruled it out as a reliable choosing method.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

The way I decide is: I alternate between even and odd page numbers--even number = believe, odd number = reject. I considered playing "rock, paper, scissors" to decide, but I ruled it out as a reliable choosing method.

Or you could just do what DB does and try to find anyone who agrees with his preconceived ideas and reject everyone else who does not. But I would hope that you would not stoop to that level.

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Or you could just do what DB does and try to find anyone who agrees with his preconceived ideas and reject everyone else who does not. But I would hope that you would not stoop to that level.

Isn't that what the more vocal of the antis typically do? They already have their preconceived Trinitarian and Calvinistic beliefs--in other words, they have already decided that no matter what anyone says, Trini-Calvinism is the gospel truth. Then they look for authors who wrote books supporting those beliefs, and then cite them as "proof" that their beliefs are true and vindicated.

If you believe that the Earth is round, and someone challenges your belief, isn't it normal to respond by looking for data that supports YOUR belief ?

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

Isn't that what the more vocal of the antis typically do? They already have their preconceived Trinitarian and Calvinistic beliefs--in other words, they have already decided that no matter what anyone says, Trini-Calvinism is the gospel truth. Then they look for authors who wrote books supporting those beliefs, and then cite them as "proof" that their beliefs are true and vindicated.

If you believe that the Earth is round, and someone challenges your belief, isn't it normal to respond by looking for data that supports YOUR belief ?

Are a Christian beliefs really preconceived? Each one of us have had to reconcile what we believe to the Bible.. I have to come to grips with the Biblical doctrine explained in 2 Corinthians 5:21. Jesus was made to become sin, so we can become the righteousness of God in Him.. And John 6:37 where we see that all that the Father has will come to Him and those that come He will in no wise cast out.. This clearly teaches us that there are many that are not the Father's but those that are are given to Jesus and He make it known that those will never lose their place with Him..

These are two major points of Calvinism that agree with the Bible.. What does mormonism teach on this subject.. We must show our obedience to God in order to gain His forgiveness. That makes forgiveness something we must earn. Mormonism teaches that we are all God's children by right of spiritual birth yet right there in John 6:37 we see that all that the Father has come to Jesus.. By the fact that all don't come to Jesus we see that the Father never had many of the children of men.. How can that be if we are ALL His children?

No, the Christian beliefs are not preconceived. These beliefs must be personally acquired.. In mormonism most are hand feed their unique doctrines from the time they can talk, singing "I am a child of God".. IHS jim

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

Isn't that what the more vocal of the antis typically do? They already have their preconceived Trinitarian and Calvinistic beliefs--in other words, they have already decided that no matter what anyone says, Trini-Calvinism is the gospel truth. Then they look for authors who wrote books supporting those beliefs, and then cite them as "proof" that their beliefs are true and vindicated.

Jeff I use the Bible to support my position. Contrast this with DB who cherry picks extra Biblical sources to try and support his position.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Jeff I use the Bible to support my position. Contrast this with DB who cherry picks extra Biblical sources to try and support his position.

And I guess I should not let you get off the hook for doing the exact same thing DB does, as noted in your post below.

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

The books canonized in the NT were chosen partly as a way to share the basic good news of the gospel with the general public. Esoteric doctrines and rituals that were meant only for those who were more grown up in the gospel, and ready for advanced stuff, were left out of the NT.

So the answer is "no." But OTHER early Christian documents DO refer to such "secret" Christian practices as vicarious ordinances for dead people, and marriage ceremonies meant to last after death.

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Jeff I use the Bible to support my position.

You use YOUR favorite interpretation of certain Bible verses to support your position. That's not really the same as using the Bible to support it.

Contrast this with DB who cherry picks extra Biblical sources to try and support his position.

Using extrabiblical sources to teach you what early Christians believed is a great thing to do, because otherwise, you might go on believing that early Christians believed the same as you do.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

You use YOUR favorite interpretation of certain Bible verses to support your position. That's not really the same as using the Bible to support it.

Bible verses if from the Bible Jeff. Contrast this to what we were talking about which was that you and DB cherry pick from extra Biblical sources to support your position.

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

Using extrabiblical sources to teach you what early Christians believed is a great thing to do, because otherwise, you might go on believing that early Christians believed the same as you do.

Using (extra LDS scripture) sources to teach you what early (Mormons) believed is a great thing to do, because otherwise, you might go on believing that early (Mormons) believed the same as you do.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Could you provide me with a link that works?

http://www.truthmagazine.com/what-is...f-regeneration

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Could you provide me with a link that works?

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

http://www.truthmagazine.com/what-is...f-regeneration

Thanks. Now can you address the rest of my post which is reproduced below?

Originally Posted by Billyray

Could you provide me with a link that works?
. . .The above quotes that you gave me were from modern day writers. Since I can give you a list of writers who say that T-itus 3:5 is NOT speaking about water baptism how do you determine which list is correct?

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Bible verses if from the Bible Jeff. Contrast this to what we were talking about which was that you and DB cherry pick from extra Biblical sources to support your position.

What's wrong with using statements by Early Church Fathers where they support our beliefs?

Using (extra LDS scripture) sources to teach you what early (Mormons) believed is a great thing to do, because otherwise, you might go on believing that early (Mormons) believed the same as you do.

I haven't really stated that I believe exactly the same as they did, so your retort has little impact.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

What's wrong with using statements by Early Church Fathers where they support our beliefs?

Because you don't believe their words are scripture. Tell me how do you decide what parts that they say are true and what parts that they say are false?

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

I haven't really stated that I believe exactly the same as they did, so your retort has little impact.

Isn't it fair to use early LDS leader's writings to so that what you believe is false?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Using (extra LDS scripture) sources to teach you what early (Mormons) believed is a great thing to do, because otherwise, you might go on believing that early (Mormons) believed the same as you do.

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

I haven't really stated that I believe exactly the same as they did, so your retort has little impact.

Then would it to be fair to say that the early LDS church leaders were false teachers?

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Then would it to be fair to say that the early LDS church leaders were false teachers?

If what they have taught is questioned, and the answers given to any other LDS differs with what the leadership has spoken. There is only two other sources for the errant teachings..

1. It came out of their own hearts.. (How many times have we shown them Jer 17:9, the heart is deceitful above all things?) And this is the good choice..
2. It is the lie of Satan as he tries to destroy the work of God..

But what is taught by the "brothern" about following the prophet?

There are some of our members who practice selective obedience. A prophet is not one who displays a smorgasbord of truth from which we are free to pick and choose. However, some members become critical and suggest the prophet should change the menu. A prophet doesn’t take a poll to see which way the wind of public opinion is ****ing. He reveals the will of the Lord to us. (Follow the Prophet, Glenn L. Pace, Second Counselor in the Presiding Bishopric, Follow the Prophet, April Conference 1989)..

Either mormonism has changed since 1989 or Jeff is one of the members of the LDS church of whom Bishop Pace was speaking. He must practice "selective obedience". Isn't "selective obedience" just another name for DISOBEDIENCE? No matter such "selective obedience" has been practiced in the LDS church from the day Smith as he was caught in his womanizing (Oops, I should say plural marriages) that started with the affair he had with the Smith familie's 16 year old house maid in 1833 (IN SACRED LONELINESS: THE PLURAL WIVES OF JOSEPH SMITH, Compton, Signature Books, Salt Lake City, 1997).. Oliver Cowdery, felt the relationship was something other than a marriage. He referred to it as “A dirty, nasty, filthy affair" (Letter written by Oliver Cowdery and recorded by his brother Warren Cowdery; in The Mormon Kingdom, vol. 1, p. 27)... To calm rumors regarding Fanny’s relationship with Joseph, the church quickly adopted a “Chapter of Rules for Marriage among the Saints”, which declared, “Inasmuch as this church of Christ has been reproached with...polygamy; we declare that we believe, that one man should have one wife...” This “Article on Marriage” was canonized and published in the Doctrine & Covenants, Section 101 of the 1833 edition. In 1852, the doctrine of polygamy was publicly announced, thus ending eighteen years of secret practice. “The Article on Marriage” became obsolete but wasn't removed from the D&C until 1876.

God allowed contradiction to be taught as the belief and standard of His church? Not our God and not our Church.. Maybe Jeff is the only LDS actually telling the truth about "following the prophet" It should come in a distant second to what the Holy Spirit teaches through His word.. IHS jim

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Thanks. Now can you address the rest of my post which is reproduced below?

Could you provide me with a link that works?
. . .The above quotes that you gave me were from modern day writers. Since I can give you a list of writers who say that T-itus 3:5 is NOT speaking about water baptism how do you determine which list is correct

But not the first Early Church Father--they all believed regeneration took place in water baptism, as the born again experience. Nor in the link I provided:

http://www.truthmagazine.com/what-is...f-regeneration