The washing of regeneration and water baptism

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

One reason is that none of us has the inherent power to resurrect ourselves. It is ONLY thanks to Jesus' resurrection that resurrection is possible, and certain, for us. Therefore, even if we could be 100% obedient to 100% of the commandments 100% of the time, Jesus is still necessary for our salvation.

What would be the basis for sending a person to Hell if that person obeyed ALL of the commandments ALL of the time and lived a life just like Jesus?

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

There is at least one other reason, but the bottom line is that it's a heresy to say that Jesus isn't necessary for our salvation. And if someone were to post at CARM that "I know someone who claims that Jesus isn't necessary for our salvation," I bet your pals such as Russ, Catherine, BrianH, Theo, Pat, etc. would ALL say that anyone who believes that Jesus isn't necessary for our salvation, is not a Christian.

Wanna test my theory out?

Salvation is based on faith in Christ BECAUSE we are ALL sinners and none of us are obedient to the commandments (Romans 3). IF a person lived a sin free life and was obedient to ALL of the commandments ALL of the time they would be saved by the works of the law (Romans 2). So when you say that a person can't be saved by the law you are absolutely wrong IF they actually obeyed the works of the law--but they don't obey the works of the law so they are guilty and will be condemned unless they place their faith in Christ.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Let's use a real world example. Let's say you break the law. You are completely guilty of the crime. You go before the judge. This is the scenario for the following choices that the judge could make.

The judge could
1. Punish everyone guilty of the crime that they have committed.
2. Punish some of those who are guilty but in his mercy let some go despite their guilt.
3. Let every single person who committed a crime go free and not be punished.

Jeff if you break the law and a judge punishes you for your crime is the judge being unfair?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

There is at least one other reason, but the bottom line is that it's a heresy to say that Jesus isn't necessary for our salvation. And if someone were to post at CARM that "I know someone who claims that Jesus isn't necessary for our salvation," I bet your pals such as Russ, Catherine, BrianH, Theo, Pat, etc. would ALL say that anyone who believes that Jesus isn't necessary for our salvation, is not a Christian.

Wanna test my theory out?

Thread on CARM--"Why can't we be justified by the works of the law?"
http://forums.carm.org/vbb/showthrea...=1#post3670106

A thread that I started last year already exists on CARM. Perhaps you can provide your comments there. Note from post #60 on that thread from an expert on Paul (quote from page 30--Conclusion in link below)

Paul did consistently teach that justification cannot be obtained via law because no one can keep the law perfectly.

Paul’s basic argument is this:

(1) One must obey the law perfectly to be saved.
(2) No one obeys the law perfectly.
(3) Therefore, no one can be saved by the works of the law.



(source--Westminster Theological Seminary. 1985; 2002. Westminster Theological Journal
Volume 47 . Westminster Theological Seminary http://www.sbts.edu/documents/tschreiner/WTJ_47.pdf)

Thomas R. Schreiner Ph.D. (His bio for those interested can be found at http://www.sbts.edu/theology/faculty/thomas-schreiner/)

[Billyray]

Romans 2:13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous

Jeff tell me what this verse means?

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by Billyray

What would be the basis for sending a person to Hell if that person obeyed ALL of the commandments ALL of the time and lived a life just like Jesus?

In order to live a life just like Jesus, you'd have to possess all of Jesus' qualities while in mortality, which is impossible for any of us. None of us currently has Jesus' knowledge, wisdom, faith and faithfulness, and level of commitment to always obeying God in every situation. Jesus was and is unique among all people born on Earth. If you can identify any human who has ever lived on this planet who lived a life just like Jesus, I'd be pretty amazed.

Salvation is based on faith in Christ BECAUSE we are ALL sinners and none of us are obedient to the commandments

None of us are obedient to ALL the commandments. Many are obedient to SOME of the commandments.

IF a person lived a sin free life and was obedient to ALL of the commandments ALL of the time they would be saved by the works of the law (Romans 2).

Then why did Jesus teach higher laws that superseded the Torah? Such as "Instead of it being okay to hit back when you're hit, you must turn the other cheek" ? Why'd He tell the rich man that to get eternal life, he needed to obey all the 10 commandments PLUS give all his possessions to the poor and follow Jesus?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

In order to live a life just like Jesus, you'd have to possess all of Jesus' qualities while in mortality, which is impossible for any of us. None of us currently has Jesus' knowledge, wisdom, faith and faithfulness, and level of commitment to always obeying God in every situation. Jesus was and is unique among all people born on Earth. If you can identify any human who has ever lived on this planet who lived a life just like Jesus, I'd be pretty amazed.

I agree that nobody is like Jesus because Jesus is God and He came to earth and lived a perfect life.

But if someone did obey all of the commandments all of the time would that person be justified by obeying the law and thus saved based on obedience to the law?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

Then why did Jesus teach higher laws that superseded the Torah?

Matthew 22
36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”
37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’
38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’
40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

The law was not only external rules and regulations but internal at***udes and desires of the heart. For example it was against the law to steal but this would also include also the thoughts and desires to steal. The problem is that nobody could obey the law--except Jesus of course. In addition the law pointed to Christ in many ways and once Christ was crucified there was no longer any need for the rituals that pointed to him to remain once the real thing came i.e. the scarifies of bulls and goats and the temple rituals.

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

Why'd He tell the rich man that to get eternal life, he needed to obey all the 10 commandments PLUS give all his possessions to the poor and follow Jesus?

In the example that you noted the man didn't perfectly obey the law like he claimed he did and second his god of money superseded his love of God.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post----But if God did not shed His Blood for them--how could they be saved? Billyray--you believe that God only died for the few--and only those have an opportunity to be saved. The Bible teaches that God died for all men--and all men will be judged according to their works.


Romans 5:18----King James Version (KJV)


18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.



John 5:28-29---King James Version (KJV)


28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.

Originally Posted by Billyray

Romans 10:13*for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

So--you don't believe one has to repent in order to be saved? Faith in Christ?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

So--you don't believe one has to repent in order to be saved? Faith in Christ?

Romans 10:13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post----But if God did not shed His Blood for them--how could they be saved? Billyray--you believe that God only died for the few--and only those have an opportunity to be saved. The Bible teaches that God died for all men--and all men will be judged according to their works.


Romans 5:18----King James Version (KJV)


18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.



John 5:28-29---King James Version (KJV)


28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.

Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post----Romans 10:13*for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---So--you don't believe one has to repent in order to be saved? Faith in Christ?

Originally Posted by Billyray

Romans 10:13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

Sorry--but repeating the verse does not answer the question. Do you believe one has to repent in order to be saved? Have faith in Christ?

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by Billyray

I agree that nobody is like Jesus because Jesus is God and He came to earth and lived a perfect life.

But if someone did obey all of the commandments all of the time would that person be justified by obeying the law and thus saved based on obedience to the law?

Here is the flaw in your logic: If a person did obey all of the commandments all of the time, then what would that person NEED to be saved from? Did Jesus need to be saved from something? Then if a person lived just like Him, why would that person have something that he or she needed to be saved from?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

Here is the flaw in your logic: If a person did obey all of the commandments all of the time, then what would that person NEED to be saved from?

He would be justified by obeying the law and would not need to have his sin forgiven because he wouldn't have any sins. Where is the flaw that you are speaking about?

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by Billyray

He would be justified by obeying the law and would not need to have his sin forgiven because he wouldn't have any sins. Where is the flaw that you are speaking about?

The flaw is: he would be justified of WHAT? Justification for sin? He wouldn't have had any sin.

In the OT, the Jews were not sinless, but the LAW spelled out what to do about their sins--sacrifice a special animal, for example. This was symbolic of Jesus' sacrifice that would actually make justification possible.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

The flaw is: he would be justified of WHAT? Justification for sin? He wouldn't have had any sin.

If he obeyed the law then he wouldn't have any sins and would be just--righteous--in the eyes of God. Again where is this flaw you are speaking about?

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

In the OT, the Jews were not sinless, but the LAW spelled out what to do about their sins--sacrifice a special animal, for example. This was symbolic of Jesus' sacrifice that would actually make justification possible.

The law included the LAWS that they were commanded to obey and if they obeyed those laws then they would be justified.

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by Billyray

The law included the LAWS that they were commanded to obey and if they obeyed those laws then they would be justified.

But one of the laws was to offer sacrifices for people's sins or violations of the Law. Do sinless people need sacrifices made for their sins?

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

But one of the laws was to offer sacrifices for people's sins or violations of the Law. Do sinless people need sacrifices made for their sins?

Nope just like in the minds of the LDS a sinless person wouldn't need baptism. but in not submitting to it a sinless person would become a sinner.. So obedience to the Law is required in order to remain sinless. So the sacrifices as proscribed are still required.. Then there is the fact that no one, save Jesus, is without sin.. so this question in without merit.. IHS jim

[dberrie2000]

dberrie-----***us3:5--"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;"

http://www.truthmagazine.com/archive...GOT034331.html

What is the "washing of regeneration" by which he saved us? We have collected the comments of various outstanding Bible scholars from a diversity of religious groups. These men often differ on some of the details in this p***age, but they all agree as to what the "washing of regeneration" is. We do not cite them as our authority, but ask that you weigh their arguments carefully.

John Wesley: "Sanctification, expressed by the laver of regeneration (that is, baptism, the thing signified, as well as the outward sign), and the renewal of the Holy Ghost, which purifies the soul, as water cleanses the body, and renews it in the whole image of God" (One Volume New Testament Commentary, Wesley, Clarke, Henry, et. al.).


Cambridge Greek Testament (J.H. Bernard): "That the 'washing of regeneration' is the Water of Baptism is undoubted; see Eph. 5:26 . . . It is the instrument (dia) of salvation (cp. 1 Pet. 3:21 . . . ), the means, that is, through which we are placed in a 'state of salvation,' in union with the mystical Body of Christ; cp. Gal. 3:27. . ."

The New Bible Commentary (A.M. Stibbs): "In status this salvation is made ours through the outward seal of baptism; in vital experience it comes through the inner quickening by the Spirit."

The Pulpit Commentary (A.C. Hervey): "Here we have the means through or by which God's mercy saves us . . . (regeneration) therefore, very fitly describes the new birth in holy baptism, when the believer is put into possession of a new spiritual life, a new nature, and a new inheritance of glory. And the laver of baptism is called 'laver of regeneration,' because it is the ordained means by or through which regeneration is obtained."

William Hendriksen: "It is clear from such p***ages as John 3:3,5 and especially Ephesians 5:26 (cf. Heb. 10:22) that this 'washing of regeneration and renewing' stand in some relation to the rite of baptism. Undoubtedly, also here in ***us 3:5 there is an implied reference to this sacrament" (New Testament Commentary).

Albert Barnes: "The word (washing) itself would naturally be understood as referring to baptism (comp. Notes on Acts 22:16), which was regarded as the emblem of washing away sins, or of cleansing from them" (Barnes' Notes on the New Testament).

Henry Alford: "Observe, there is here no figure: the words are literal: Baptism is taken as in all its completion, the outward visible sign accompanied by the inward spiritual grace; and as thus complete, it not only represents, but is the new birth." At Hebrews 10:22, Alford says the clause having our body washed with pure water "refers directly to Christian baptism" and cites washing of water (Eph. 5:26) and washing of regeneration (***. 3:5) as "****ogous expressions" (The Greek New Testament).

James Macknight: "Through the bath of regeneration: through baptism; called 'the bath of regeneration,' not because any change in the nature of the baptized person is produced by baptism, but because it is an emblem of the purification of his soul from sin. . . " (Apostolical Epistles).

G.R. Beasley-Murray: Beasley-Murray said in 1962 "of all the commentators who have written on these Epistles [1 Timothy, 2 Timothy, ***us], I can find but one who denies" that this refers to baptism. He says, "All things considered, it requires a real hardiness of spirit to refuse the weight of this evidence. . . " (Baptism, pp. 209, 210). I have come across one additional more recent commentator who denies that baptism is under consideration.

What is the "washing of regeneration" by which he saved us? These commentators all agree and most of them cite biblical evidence to back up their position. The "washing of regeneration" in ***us 3:5 is baptism. In the chart below we have replaced the phrase "washing of regeneration" with the word baptism. This is proper since this is the meaning of the phrase.



Where does this leave faith alone theology? They carefully eliminate water baptism from anything salvational. But yet, if the testimonies of Christ, the Early Church Fathers, and the scholars are true--then it is the quite attached to regeneration.

Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post---T i t u s 3:4 But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, 5 he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit,

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

That's not going to help your cause--if the "washing of regeneration" in ***us3:5 is defined as water baptism--then water baptism is connected to salvation:---"he saved us, by the washing of regeneration,"

Bump for anyone

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

That's not going to help your cause--if the "washing of regeneration" in ***us3:5 is defined as water baptism--then water baptism is connected to salvation:---"he saved us, by the washing of regeneration,"

T i t u s 3:4 But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, 5 he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit,

Where in this verse does it mention water baptism? It does nothing to help your case to bring up water baptism when you use a verse that says nothing about water baptism.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Billyray

T i t u s 3:4 But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, 5 he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit,

Where in this verse does it mention water baptism? It does nothing to help your case to bring up water baptism when you use a verse that says nothing about water baptism.

Both rebirth and regeneration was viewed as water baptism by the Early Church Fathers:

The Early Church Fathers were unanimous about what being born again and regeneration involved:


ST. JUSTIN MARTYR (inter A.D. 148-155)

Whoever is convinced and believes that what they are taught and told by us is the truth, and professes to be able to live accordingly, is instructed to pray and to beseech God in fasting for the remission of their former sins, while we pray and fast with them. Then they are led by us to a place where there is water; and there they are reborn in the same kind of rebirth in which we ourselves were reborn: In the name of God, the Lord and Father of all, and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they receive the washing with water. For Christ said, "Unless you be reborn, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven." ...The reason for doing this, we have learned from the Apostles. (The First Apology 61)

================================================== ========
ST. IRENAEUS (c. A.D. 190)

"And [Naaman] dipped himself...seven times in the Jordan" [2 Kings 5:14]. It was not for nothing that Naaman of old, when suffering from leprosy, was purified upon his being baptized, but [this served] as an indication to us. For as we are lepers in sin, we are made clean, by means of the sacred water and the invocation of the Lord, from our old transgressions, being spiritually regenerated as new-born babes, even as the Lord has declared: "Except a man be born again through water and the Spirit, he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven." (Fragment 34)

================================================== ======================
TERTULLIAN (inter A.D. 200-206)

A treatise on our sacrament of water, by which the sins of our earlier blindness are washed away and we are released for eternal life will not be superfluous.....taking away death by the washing away of sins. The guilt being removed, the penalty, of course, is also removed.....Baptism is itself a corporal act by which we are plunged in water, while its effect is spiritual, in that we are freed from sins. (On Baptism 1:1; 5:6; 7:2)

...no one can attain salvation without Baptism, especially in view of the declaration of the Lord, who says: "Unless a man shall be born of water, he shall not have life." (On Baptism 12:1)

================================================== ======================
RECOGNITIONS OF CLEMENT (c. A.D. 221)

But you will perhaps say, "What does the baptism of water contribute toward the worship of God?" In the first place, because that which has pleased God is fulfilled. In the second place, because when you are regenerated and born again of water and of God, the frailty of your former birth, which you have through men, is cut off, and so ...you shall be able to attain salvation; but otherwise it is impossible. For thus has the true Prophet [Jesus] testified to us with an oath: "Verily, I say to you, that unless a man is born again of water....he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven." (Recognitions 6:9)

================================================== ========
ST. CYPRIAN OF CARTHAGE (c. 200 - 258 A.D.)

[When] they receive also the Baptism of the Church...then finally can they be fully sanctified and be the sons of God...since it is written, "Except a man be born again of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." (Letters 71[72]:1)[It] behooves those to be baptized...so that they are prepared, in the lawful and true and only Baptism of the holy Church, by divine regeneration, for the kingdom of God...because it is written, "Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." (Letters 72[73]:21)

================================================== ======================
SEVENTH COUNCIL OF CARTHAGE (c. A.D. 256)

And in the gospel our Lord Jesus Christ spoke with his divine voice, saying, "Except a man be born again of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God." ...Unless therefore they receive saving Baptism in the Catholic Church, which is one, they cannot be saved, but will be condemned with the carnal in the judgment of the Lord Christ.
================================================== ========
ST. CYRIL OF JERUSALEM (c. A.D. 350)
If any man does not receive Baptism, he does not have salvation. The only exception is the martyrs, who, even without water, will receive the kingdom....for the Savior calls martyrdom a Baptism (cf. Mark 10:38) ...Bearing your sins, you go down into the water; but the calling down of grace seals your soul and does not permit that you afterwards be swallowed up by the fearsome dragon. You go down dead in your sins, and come up made alive in righteousness. (Catechetical Lectures 3:10,12)

Since man is of a twofold nature, composed of body and soul, the purification also is twofold: the corporeal for the corporeal and the incorporeal for the incorporeal. The water cleanses the body, and the Spirit seals the soul....When you go down into the water, then, regard not simply the water, but look for salvation through the power of the Holy Spirit. For without both you cannot attain to perfection. It is not I who says this, but the Lord Jesus Christ, who has the power in this matter.

And He says, "Unless a man be born again" -- and He adds the words "of water and of the Spirit" -- "he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." He that is baptized with water, but is not found worthy of the Spirit, does not receive the grace in perfection. Nor, if a man be virtuous in his deeds, but does not receive the seal by means of the water, shall he enter the kingdom of heaven.

A bold saying, but not mine; for it is Jesus who has declared it.

(Catechetical Lectures 3:4)

================================================== ======================
ST. BASIL THE GREAT (c. A.D. 330 - 379)

For prisoners, Baptism is ransom, forgiveness of debts, death of sin, regeneration of the soul, a resplendent garment, an unbreakable seal, a chariot to heaven, a protector royal, a gift of adoption. (Sermons on Moral and Practical Subjects: On Baptism 13:5)

This then is what it means to be "born again of water and Spirit" : just as our dying is effected in the water [Rom 6:3-4; Col 2:11-13], our living is wrought through the Spirit. In three immersions and in an equal number of invocations the great mystery of Baptism is completed in such a way that the type of death may be shown figuratively, and that by the handing on of divine knowledge the souls of the baptized may be illuminated. If, therefore, there is any grace in the water, it is not from the nature of water but from the Spirit's presence there. (On the Holy Spirit 15:35)

================================================== ======================
ST. AMBROSE OF MILAN (c. A.D. 333 - 397)

The Church was redeemed at the price of Christ's blood. Jew or Greek, it makes no difference; but if he has believed, he must circumcise himself from his sins [in Baptism -- Col 2:11-13] so that he can be saved...for no one ascends into the kingdom of heaven except through the sacrament of Baptism...."Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God." (On Abraham 2:11:79,84)

You have read, therefore, that the three witnesses in Baptism are one: water, blood and the Spirit [1 John 5:8]: and if you withdraw any one of these, the sacrament of Baptism is not valid. For what is the water without the cross of Christ? A common element with no sacramental effect. Nor on the other hand is there any mystery of regeneration without water: for "unless a man be born again of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God." (On the Mysteries 4:20)

================================================== ========
APOSTOLIC CONS***UTIONS (c. A.D. 400)

Be ye likewise contented with one Baptism alone, that which is into the death of the Lord [Rom 6:3-4; Col 2:11-13]...he that out of contempt will not be baptized shall be condemned as an unbeliever and shall be reproached as ungrateful and foolish. For the Lord says, "Except a man be baptized of water and of the Spirit, he shall by no means enter into the kingdom of heaven." And again, "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved, but he that believeth not shall be ****ed." (6:3:15)




Were the early church fathers wrong? Billyray--if this is true--your postulations are false--and so is your theology.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Both rebirth and regeneration was viewed as water baptism by the Early Church Fathers:

T i t u s 3:4 But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, 5 he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit,

Where in this verse does it mention water baptism? It does nothing to help your case to bring up water baptism when you use a verse that says nothing about water baptism.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Billyray

T i t u s 3:4 But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, 5 he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit,

Where in this verse does it mention water baptism? It does nothing to help your case to bring up water baptism when you use a verse that says nothing about water baptism.

***us3:5--"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;"

http://www.truthmagazine.com/archive...GOT034331.html

What is the "washing of regeneration" by which he saved us? We have collected the comments of various outstanding Bible scholars from a diversity of religious groups. These men often differ on some of the details in this p***age, but they all agree as to what the "washing of regeneration" is. We do not cite them as our authority, but ask that you weigh their arguments carefully.

John Wesley: "Sanctification, expressed by the laver of regeneration (that is, baptism, the thing signified, as well as the outward sign), and the renewal of the Holy Ghost, which purifies the soul, as water cleanses the body, and renews it in the whole image of God" (One Volume New Testament Commentary, Wesley, Clarke, Henry, et. al.).


Cambridge Greek Testament (J.H. Bernard): "That the 'washing of regeneration' is the Water of Baptism is undoubted; see Eph. 5:26 . . . It is the instrument (dia) of salvation (cp. 1 Pet. 3:21 . . . ), the means, that is, through which we are placed in a 'state of salvation,' in union with the mystical Body of Christ; cp. Gal. 3:27. . ."

The New Bible Commentary (A.M. Stibbs): "In status this salvation is made ours through the outward seal of baptism; in vital experience it comes through the inner quickening by the Spirit."

The Pulpit Commentary (A.C. Hervey): "Here we have the means through or by which God's mercy saves us . . . (regeneration) therefore, very fitly describes the new birth in holy baptism, when the believer is put into possession of a new spiritual life, a new nature, and a new inheritance of glory. And the laver of baptism is called 'laver of regeneration,' because it is the ordained means by or through which regeneration is obtained."

William Hendriksen: "It is clear from such p***ages as John 3:3,5 and especially Ephesians 5:26 (cf. Heb. 10:22) that this 'washing of regeneration and renewing' stand in some relation to the rite of baptism. Undoubtedly, also here in ***us 3:5 there is an implied reference to this sacrament" (New Testament Commentary).

Albert Barnes: "The word (washing) itself would naturally be understood as referring to baptism (comp. Notes on Acts 22:16), which was regarded as the emblem of washing away sins, or of cleansing from them" (Barnes' Notes on the New Testament).

Henry Alford: "Observe, there is here no figure: the words are literal: Baptism is taken as in all its completion, the outward visible sign accompanied by the inward spiritual grace; and as thus complete, it not only represents, but is the new birth." At Hebrews 10:22, Alford says the clause having our body washed with pure water "refers directly to Christian baptism" and cites washing of water (Eph. 5:26) and washing of regeneration (***. 3:5) as "****ogous expressions" (The Greek New Testament).

James Macknight: "Through the bath of regeneration: through baptism; called 'the bath of regeneration,' not because any change in the nature of the baptized person is produced by baptism, but because it is an emblem of the purification of his soul from sin. . . " (Apostolical Epistles).

G.R. Beasley-Murray: Beasley-Murray said in 1962 "of all the commentators who have written on these Epistles [1 Timothy, 2 Timothy, ***us], I can find but one who denies" that this refers to baptism. He says, "All things considered, it requires a real hardiness of spirit to refuse the weight of this evidence. . . " (Baptism, pp. 209, 210). I have come across one additional more recent commentator who denies that baptism is under consideration.

What is the "washing of regeneration" by which he saved us? These commentators all agree and most of them cite biblical evidence to back up their position. The "washing of regeneration" in ***us 3:5 is baptism. In the chart below we have replaced the phrase "washing of regeneration" with the word baptism. This is proper since this is the meaning of the phrase.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

***us3:5--"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;"

Where in this verse does it mention water baptism?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Were the early church fathers wrong?

Do you believe the early church fathers OR just selectively?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Where in this verse does it mention water baptism?

***us3:5--"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;"

http://www.truthmagazine.com/archive...GOT034331.html

What is the "washing of regeneration" by which he saved us? We have collected the comments of various outstanding Bible scholars from a diversity of religious groups. These men often differ on some of the details in this p***age, but they all agree as to what the "washing of regeneration" is. We do not cite them as our authority, but ask that you weigh their arguments carefully.

John Wesley: "Sanctification, expressed by the laver of regeneration (that is, baptism, the thing signified, as well as the outward sign), and the renewal of the Holy Ghost, which purifies the soul, as water cleanses the body, and renews it in the whole image of God" (One Volume New Testament Commentary, Wesley, Clarke, Henry, et. al.).


Cambridge Greek Testament (J.H. Bernard): "That the 'washing of regeneration' is the Water of Baptism is undoubted; see Eph. 5:26 . . . It is the instrument (dia) of salvation (cp. 1 Pet. 3:21 . . . ), the means, that is, through which we are placed in a 'state of salvation,' in union with the mystical Body of Christ; cp. Gal. 3:27. . ."

The New Bible Commentary (A.M. Stibbs): "In status this salvation is made ours through the outward seal of baptism; in vital experience it comes through the inner quickening by the Spirit."

The Pulpit Commentary (A.C. Hervey): "Here we have the means through or by which God's mercy saves us . . . (regeneration) therefore, very fitly describes the new birth in holy baptism, when the believer is put into possession of a new spiritual life, a new nature, and a new inheritance of glory. And the laver of baptism is called 'laver of regeneration,' because it is the ordained means by or through which regeneration is obtained."

William Hendriksen: "It is clear from such p***ages as John 3:3,5 and especially Ephesians 5:26 (cf. Heb. 10:22) that this 'washing of regeneration and renewing' stand in some relation to the rite of baptism. Undoubtedly, also here in ***us 3:5 there is an implied reference to this sacrament" (New Testament Commentary).

Albert Barnes: "The word (washing) itself would naturally be understood as referring to baptism (comp. Notes on Acts 22:16), which was regarded as the emblem of washing away sins, or of cleansing from them" (Barnes' Notes on the New Testament).

Henry Alford: "Observe, there is here no figure: the words are literal: Baptism is taken as in all its completion, the outward visible sign accompanied by the inward spiritual grace; and as thus complete, it not only represents, but is the new birth." At Hebrews 10:22, Alford says the clause having our body washed with pure water "refers directly to Christian baptism" and cites washing of water (Eph. 5:26) and washing of regeneration (***. 3:5) as "****ogous expressions" (The Greek New Testament).

James Macknight: "Through the bath of regeneration: through baptism; called 'the bath of regeneration,' not because any change in the nature of the baptized person is produced by baptism, but because it is an emblem of the purification of his soul from sin. . . " (Apostolical Epistles).

G.R. Beasley-Murray: Beasley-Murray said in 1962 "of all the commentators who have written on these Epistles [1 Timothy, 2 Timothy, ***us], I can find but one who denies" that this refers to baptism. He says, "All things considered, it requires a real hardiness of spirit to refuse the weight of this evidence. . . " (Baptism, pp. 209, 210). I have come across one additional more recent commentator who denies that baptism is under consideration.

What is the "washing of regeneration" by which he saved us? These commentators all agree and most of them cite biblical evidence to back up their position. The "washing of regeneration" in ***us 3:5 is baptism. In the chart below we have replaced the phrase "washing of regeneration" with the word baptism. This is proper since this is the meaning of the phrase.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post-----Both rebirth and regeneration was viewed as water baptism by the Early Church Fathers:

The Early Church Fathers were unanimous about what being born again and regeneration involved:


ST. JUSTIN MARTYR (inter A.D. 148-155)

Whoever is convinced and believes that what they are taught and told by us is the truth, and professes to be able to live accordingly, is instructed to pray and to beseech God in fasting for the remission of their former sins, while we pray and fast with them. Then they are led by us to a place where there is water; and there they are reborn in the same kind of rebirth in which we ourselves were reborn: In the name of God, the Lord and Father of all, and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they receive the washing with water. For Christ said, "Unless you be reborn, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven." ...The reason for doing this, we have learned from the Apostles. (The First Apology 61)

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ST. IRENAEUS (c. A.D. 190)

"And [Naaman] dipped himself...seven times in the Jordan" [2 Kings 5:14]. It was not for nothing that Naaman of old, when suffering from leprosy, was purified upon his being baptized, but [this served] as an indication to us. For as we are lepers in sin, we are made clean, by means of the sacred water and the invocation of the Lord, from our old transgressions, being spiritually regenerated as new-born babes, even as the Lord has declared: "Except a man be born again through water and the Spirit, he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven." (Fragment 34)

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TERTULLIAN (inter A.D. 200-206)

A treatise on our sacrament of water, by which the sins of our earlier blindness are washed away and we are released for eternal life will not be superfluous.....taking away death by the washing away of sins. The guilt being removed, the penalty, of course, is also removed.....Baptism is itself a corporal act by which we are plunged in water, while its effect is spiritual, in that we are freed from sins. (On Baptism 1:1; 5:6; 7:2)

...no one can attain salvation without Baptism, especially in view of the declaration of the Lord, who says: "Unless a man shall be born of water, he shall not have life." (On Baptism 12:1)

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RECOGNITIONS OF CLEMENT (c. A.D. 221)

But you will perhaps say, "What does the baptism of water contribute toward the worship of God?" In the first place, because that which has pleased God is fulfilled. In the second place, because when you are regenerated and born again of water and of God, the frailty of your former birth, which you have through men, is cut off, and so ...you shall be able to attain salvation; but otherwise it is impossible. For thus has the true Prophet [Jesus] testified to us with an oath: "Verily, I say to you, that unless a man is born again of water....he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven." (Recognitions 6:9)

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ST. CYPRIAN OF CARTHAGE (c. 200 - 258 A.D.)

[When] they receive also the Baptism of the Church...then finally can they be fully sanctified and be the sons of God...since it is written, "Except a man be born again of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." (Letters 71[72]:1)[It] behooves those to be baptized...so that they are prepared, in the lawful and true and only Baptism of the holy Church, by divine regeneration, for the kingdom of God...because it is written, "Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." (Letters 72[73]:21)

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SEVENTH COUNCIL OF CARTHAGE (c. A.D. 256)

And in the gospel our Lord Jesus Christ spoke with his divine voice, saying, "Except a man be born again of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God." ...Unless therefore they receive saving Baptism in the Catholic Church, which is one, they cannot be saved, but will be condemned with the carnal in the judgment of the Lord Christ.
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ST. CYRIL OF JERUSALEM (c. A.D. 350)
If any man does not receive Baptism, he does not have salvation. The only exception is the martyrs, who, even without water, will receive the kingdom....for the Savior calls martyrdom a Baptism (cf. Mark 10:38) ...Bearing your sins, you go down into the water; but the calling down of grace seals your soul and does not permit that you afterwards be swallowed up by the fearsome dragon. You go down dead in your sins, and come up made alive in righteousness. (Catechetical Lectures 3:10,12)

Since man is of a twofold nature, composed of body and soul, the purification also is twofold: the corporeal for the corporeal and the incorporeal for the incorporeal. The water cleanses the body, and the Spirit seals the soul....When you go down into the water, then, regard not simply the water, but look for salvation through the power of the Holy Spirit. For without both you cannot attain to perfection. It is not I who says this, but the Lord Jesus Christ, who has the power in this matter.

And He says, "Unless a man be born again" -- and He adds the words "of water and of the Spirit" -- "he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." He that is baptized with water, but is not found worthy of the Spirit, does not receive the grace in perfection. Nor, if a man be virtuous in his deeds, but does not receive the seal by means of the water, shall he enter the kingdom of heaven.

A bold saying, but not mine; for it is Jesus who has declared it.

(Catechetical Lectures 3:4)

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ST. BASIL THE GREAT (c. A.D. 330 - 379)

For prisoners, Baptism is ransom, forgiveness of debts, death of sin, regeneration of the soul, a resplendent garment, an unbreakable seal, a chariot to heaven, a protector royal, a gift of adoption. (Sermons on Moral and Practical Subjects: On Baptism 13:5)

This then is what it means to be "born again of water and Spirit" : just as our dying is effected in the water [Rom 6:3-4; Col 2:11-13], our living is wrought through the Spirit. In three immersions and in an equal number of invocations the great mystery of Baptism is completed in such a way that the type of death may be shown figuratively, and that by the handing on of divine knowledge the souls of the baptized may be illuminated. If, therefore, there is any grace in the water, it is not from the nature of water but from the Spirit's presence there. (On the Holy Spirit 15:35)

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ST. AMBROSE OF MILAN (c. A.D. 333 - 397)

The Church was redeemed at the price of Christ's blood. Jew or Greek, it makes no difference; but if he has believed, he must circumcise himself from his sins [in Baptism -- Col 2:11-13] so that he can be saved...for no one ascends into the kingdom of heaven except through the sacrament of Baptism...."Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God." (On Abraham 2:11:79,84)

You have read, therefore, that the three witnesses in Baptism are one: water, blood and the Spirit [1 John 5:8]: and if you withdraw any one of these, the sacrament of Baptism is not valid. For what is the water without the cross of Christ? A common element with no sacramental effect. Nor on the other hand is there any mystery of regeneration without water: for "unless a man be born again of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God." (On the Mysteries 4:20)

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APOSTOLIC CONS***UTIONS (c. A.D. 400)

Be ye likewise contented with one Baptism alone, that which is into the death of the Lord [Rom 6:3-4; Col 2:11-13]...he that out of contempt will not be baptized shall be condemned as an unbeliever and shall be reproached as ungrateful and foolish. For the Lord says, "Except a man be baptized of water and of the Spirit, he shall by no means enter into the kingdom of heaven." And again, "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved, but he that believeth not shall be ****ed." (6:3:15)

Originally Posted by Billyray

Do you believe the early church fathers OR just selectively?

It's certainly strong evidence when they are in unison about water baptism being the born again experience referenced in John3:5--and the point of regeneration. Do you have any early church fathers that disagreed with that?