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Thread: The confusing theology of the faith alone

  1. #101
    James Banta
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    [nrajeffreturns;151966]I don't deny it. I just disagree with your incorrect interpretation of what it was intended to mean.
    So I am dead wrong when I see a passage that says that salvation is NOT OF WORKS, I must agree with you that salvation requires works or my interpretation is incorrect. If I quote Roman 11:6 and sat that salvation is either by works or by grace but not both I am again incorrect? I guess so because you trust what a man teaches even over the Scripture (Ezra Taft Benson, Fourteen Fundamentals in Following the Prophet, Devotional address Brigham Young University, February 26, 1980). So you then don't care at all what the Bible teaches YOU HAVE A PROPHET.. It doesn't matter he he teaches doctrines the Bible contradicts, it doesn't matter if he tells you to g after other Gods, you have a prophet and in that same address Benson teaches that "will never lead the Church astray", even thought that is just what you believed happened after the death of the Apostles in the first century.. So don't listen to me I am not a prophet. I lean on the Scripture as my only guide to truth.. So you do deny scripture because a prophet had taught you that your works must be done to gain salvation no matter what Jesus did, no matter what the scripture teach..

    I don't deny it. I just understand that it was a reference to the legalistic rules of the Torah. Since you don't understand that, you reach a different, incorrect conclusion regarding what it's supposed to mean.
    And you believe the Law doesn't count any more? Didn't Jesus teach us that His reason for coming into the world wasn't to destroy the Law but be it's fulfillment? Doesn't the scripture teach that the Law is our schoolmaster to bring us to Jesus? YES!! As we read the sermon on the mount we see that Jesus intensified the Law.. No longer is it sin just to murder, being angry is enough to break that Law.. No longer must we commit adultery, just to look at a woman in list breaks the Law.. The Law is still there, it is still in force, it is eternal. It will be by the Law a man will be judged guilty or innocent before a Holy God.. The Law of Jesus, is not the same thing. That is the Law James calls the Law of liberty, it requires God grace to enter.

    That is a false statement.
    Is it? In your own creed it says "We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel. [AofF 3] If this isn't the law given by God to Moses what Laws is it that this point of the LDS creed is specking? Is it speaking of even the Laws Jesus gave to us? Yes? Didn't Jesus command that we be perfect as His Father in Heaven is perfect? (Matthew 5:48).. Have you been obedient to that LAW? No? If not then you will not gain salvation because you are not obedient. There is no obedience in disobedience.. Either you are not telling me the truth that the LDS reject salvation by God's grace or Paul in Romans 11:6 was lying to us.. Salvation is either by grace or by works NOT BOTH.. You seem to always skate the issue of your own personal obedience.. I guess that is because looking at it would make you understand your lack of obedience.. Sorry jeff but you are no more obedient than I am..

    You studiously avoid the question of whether OBEDIENCE is a condition for eternal life. Why do you deny the Biblical truth that if you want eternal life, you MUST obey God's commandments? Obedience is one of the REQUIREMENTS.
    Here is the definitive answer you seem to not see in our words.. OBEDIENCE (a man's personal obedience) IS NOT A CONDITION TO GAIN ETERNAL LIFE! Is that clear enough? Obedience however is required to gain eternal life.. Sound contradictory? Jesus commanded that we be perfect even as the Father in heaven is perfect.. He is the only one that ever lived that achieved that level of perfection. Either He is the Only man ever born of a woman that can be saved or 2 Corinthians 5:21 is how we can keep that commandment to be perfect.. One or the other because OBEDIENCE IS NOT FOUND IN DISOBEDIENCE.. IHS jim

  2. #102
    Super Moderator alanmolstad's Avatar
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    we are saved by grace though faith.....

    This means that salvation comes to use from God's grace though the channel of our faith in Him.

    This also means that works are a moot point, you dont get anything from works.



    We are saved only though the working of God's grace though our faith and not by our works that are always with our faith.


    I heard it said on the TV one time, "Saving faith saves alone, but saving faith is never alone"....

    And it is to be remembered that our faith is never alone, yet we also need to keep in mind that works do not save.



    Thus we are NOT saved via faith and works!
    From the Forum RULES : "As you know, the Walter Martin website takes the position that Mormon theology is not Christian theology. Use of the term "LDS Christian" is inaccurate and misleading, and as such is not acceptable on this board."

  3. #103
    Super Moderator alanmolstad's Avatar
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    Still one of my best answers to the Mormon's false understanding of salvation...


    "we are saved by grace though faith.....

    This means that salvation comes to use from God's grace though the channel of our faith in Him.

    This also means that works are a moot point, you dont get anything from works.



    We are saved only though the working of God's grace though our faith and not by our works that are always with our faith.


    I heard it said on the TV one time, "Saving faith saves alone, but saving faith is never alone"....

    And it is to be remembered that our faith is never alone, yet we also need to keep in mind that works do not save.



    Thus we are NOT saved via faith and works! "
    From the Forum RULES : "As you know, the Walter Martin website takes the position that Mormon theology is not Christian theology. Use of the term "LDS Christian" is inaccurate and misleading, and as such is not acceptable on this board."

  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    Not by faith, not by works, not by trust, not by obedience, not by belief--but by grace. And that leaves but one question. Who does God's grace unto life go to?


    Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)


    9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
    Since it is talking ONLY of Jesus (READ THE CONTEXT. . .you know. . .the STUFF AROUND IT.

    It is clear that you are dull of hearing. . .

  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    Do you believe this is a reference to dead faith?


    James 2:20-26---King James Version (KJV)

    20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

    21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

    22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

    23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

    24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

    25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

    26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.



    IF you have faith in Jesus Christ your faith is NOT dead.

    IF you simply (as the man in the James passage) simply 'say' you have faith, but have no works, you don't. IF you have faith (and are therefore forgiven the penalty of your sins) you have eternal life in Jesus Christ; your FAITH is counted as righteousness..


    You can 'say' anything you want. YOU say you are a 'christian.' I don't believe you. . .your 'works' reveal what YOU have faith in. . .joey the heretic smith.

  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian View Post
    Since it is talking ONLY of Jesus (READ THE CONTEXT. . .you know. . .the STUFF AROUND IT.
    Um, no, the bolded part is not talking ONLY of Jesus.

  7. #107
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    Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post Do you believe this is a reference to dead faith?

    James 2:20-26---King James Version (KJV)
    20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
    21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
    22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
    23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
    24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
    25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
    26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
    Quote Originally Posted by Christian View Post
    [COLOR=#0000cd]IF you have faith in Jesus Christ your faith is NOT dead. IF you simply (as the man in the James passage) simply 'say' you have faith, but have no works, you don't.
    Then could you explain for us why the faith alone(sola fide) preach obtaining salvation to the exclusion of all works?

  8. #108
    Super Moderator alanmolstad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    Then could you explain for us why the faith alone(sola fide) preach obtaining salvation to the exclusion of all works?

    we are saved by grace though faith...and not by works.




    "Not by works".....is not the same thing as "without works"



    This is the main error that Mormons have, for they see the words "not by works" and twist it into saying "without works".



    If the Mormon would simply understand that faith is never without works, and yet works cant save they would be able to overcome their blindness in this area.
    From the Forum RULES : "As you know, the Walter Martin website takes the position that Mormon theology is not Christian theology. Use of the term "LDS Christian" is inaccurate and misleading, and as such is not acceptable on this board."

  9. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    we are saved by grace though faith...and not by works.
    So--when you use the term "faith" above--is that a reference to a faith with works--or a faith without works?

  10. #110
    Super Moderator alanmolstad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    So--when you use the term "faith" above--is that a reference to a faith with works--or a faith without works?
    when I use the term I mean it to be the following....

    We are saved by Grace alone...
    We are saved by Grace though faith alone.

    Faith is never alone, for faith always has some works with it.

    Yet we are not saved by Grace though faith AND works, nor are we saved by Faith, nor by works, nor by any combination of faith and works.



    How are all saved?...the answer is that we are saved only by Grace , and that Grace works only though our faith,, and not by our works that are always with our faith.




    any questions on this so far?.....just let me know if you have any questions on this part before I move on to the next step
    From the Forum RULES : "As you know, the Walter Martin website takes the position that Mormon theology is not Christian theology. Use of the term "LDS Christian" is inaccurate and misleading, and as such is not acceptable on this board."

  11. #111
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    Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post So--when you use the term "faith" above--is that a reference to a faith with works--or a faith without works?

    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    when I use the term I mean it to be the following....

    We are saved by Grace alone...
    We are saved by Grace though faith alone.

    Faith is never alone,
    "through faith alone"--"Faith is never alone,"--seems to be a very confused theology, IMO.

    for faith always has some works with it.
    Could you relate to us what those works are?

    Yet we are not saved by Grace though faith AND works,
    But didn't you just testify to this?

    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    Faith is never alone, for faith always has some works with it.
    So--if faith always has works with it--how can it not be "faith AND works"?

  12. #112
    Super Moderator alanmolstad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    "through faith alone"--"Faith is never alone,"--seems to be a very confused theology, IMO.


    well, it's not taught in Mormonism, so it's bound to sound new to some ears at first.
    From the Forum RULES : "As you know, the Walter Martin website takes the position that Mormon theology is not Christian theology. Use of the term "LDS Christian" is inaccurate and misleading, and as such is not acceptable on this board."

  13. #113
    Super Moderator alanmolstad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    "

    Could you relate to us what those works are?



    "?
    The only one work the Bible teaches has any merit at all with the Lord.......it is called "thee" work.....the only work....the lone work...


    and that work is to "believe" in the Lord Jesus Christ.




    This is why we are saved via Grace though FAITH, and not by works.....for only though faith does God's grace visit men's life.
    Last edited by alanmolstad; 09-30-2017 at 09:21 AM.
    From the Forum RULES : "As you know, the Walter Martin website takes the position that Mormon theology is not Christian theology. Use of the term "LDS Christian" is inaccurate and misleading, and as such is not acceptable on this board."

  14. #114
    Super Moderator alanmolstad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post


    But didn't you just testify to this?


    You think this only because when I say "not by works" you replace my words with the phrase "without works"



    If you ever stopped doing that you would suddenly see what Im actually saying.....
    From the Forum RULES : "As you know, the Walter Martin website takes the position that Mormon theology is not Christian theology. Use of the term "LDS Christian" is inaccurate and misleading, and as such is not acceptable on this board."

  15. #115
    Super Moderator alanmolstad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    "

    So--if faith always has works with it--how can it not be "faith AND works"?


    once again....we are saved ONLY,,,,ONLY.....ONLY by grace.

    and Grace works Only....ONLY....ONLY though faith.



    and not by works.




    It's that simple.
    No tricky works to perform...no requirements to go climb a mountain, or visit a holy man, or make a trip to a far off land.


    Just believe in Jesus.






    The works that are always with my faith do not add anything to my salvation.
    The works that are always part of my faith, are the sign to the unbeliever of my faith.

    My works can be seen by you.

    My works can be judged by you.

    That is the Justification by works that the Bible talks about.
    It is before men.



    But Im also told of another justification.

    This is the Justification by FAITH that is only seen by the Lord.


    This is why the Bible teaches so very clearly that Im saved only via Grace though FAITH, and not by works.




    Does my faith always have works?...yes!

    Do works get me saved?....no!

    Do works help me stay saved?......no!


    So what are works for?.....the answer is that my works confirm my faith to the unbeliever.






    What does that mean?
    It means that while I might tell you over and over that Im a good Christian, you only have my word on that.
    You dont know whats going on inside my heart.
    You dont know what faith I actually have.
    This is why works are so important to God, for they are the way my faith that is hidden comes forth into the world.

    For you cant see my heart
    You cant see my faith
    But you can see my works.


    So while my works play no part in my salvation, they yet play an important part in my life, for they represent my faith to you....



    For works flow from my faith.
    Last edited by alanmolstad; 09-30-2017 at 09:24 AM.
    From the Forum RULES : "As you know, the Walter Martin website takes the position that Mormon theology is not Christian theology. Use of the term "LDS Christian" is inaccurate and misleading, and as such is not acceptable on this board."

  16. #116
    Super Moderator alanmolstad's Avatar
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    Let me know if you have any more questions.....
    From the Forum RULES : "As you know, the Walter Martin website takes the position that Mormon theology is not Christian theology. Use of the term "LDS Christian" is inaccurate and misleading, and as such is not acceptable on this board."

  17. #117
    Super Moderator alanmolstad's Avatar
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    let me teach a liitle on an idea that not many people think of, or deal with very much in the church.


    We say that faith always has works with it.
    We say that the works flow naturally from the heart of a saved person.

    And all that above is very true.

    But we also say that faith without works is dead.
    And this also is something that is very true.

    But the unasked question is "Who is it dead to?"



    I believe the answer is the following-
    Lets say Im saved, and a good Christian....
    Lets say I have tons and tons of faith.

    But lets also say that my life has it's hard spots too....lets say that from time to time I enter a feeling of depression where I simply stop doing anything..

    Perhaps its due to the death of a child?....or the loss of confidance?...or just a loss of get up and go?

    whatevcer, lets say that while I never walk away from my Christian faith in the Lord, I yet dont have squat for works that come with my faith.

    For all to see, my faith is without works......thus my faith is dead.


    But who is my faith dead to?.......

    Some may answer that in this situation my faith is dead to myself.
    And there might be a bit of truth to this, but I think there is another greater answer to the question.


    I believe the more correct answer is that my faith is now dead to the world.
    For the world around me has stopped seeing the effect my faith has had on me.

    So if my faith is dead, it is dead to the unbeliever who would have been able to see my faith in my actions, and seen how my faith has effected me, and thus been shown the path to salvation that I know in the Lord.
    From the Forum RULES : "As you know, the Walter Martin website takes the position that Mormon theology is not Christian theology. Use of the term "LDS Christian" is inaccurate and misleading, and as such is not acceptable on this board."

  18. #118
    Super Moderator alanmolstad's Avatar
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    and this gets us back to the question, "what are works for?"


    For the answer from the Bible is that works are for people to see....

    Thats it.



    This is why the Bible tells us clearly that " I will show you my faith by my works."
    For this is the real reason faith always has works with it.
    It's to be able to show others of your faith.


    Works are for the sake of the unbeliever.....works are for the support and building up of the church.

    My works dont make me saved

    My works dont keep me saved.

    But my works allow me to show the world my faith.
    From the Forum RULES : "As you know, the Walter Martin website takes the position that Mormon theology is not Christian theology. Use of the term "LDS Christian" is inaccurate and misleading, and as such is not acceptable on this board."

  19. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    once again....we are saved ONLY,,,,ONLY.....ONLY by grace.

    and Grace works Only....ONLY....ONLY though faith.
    That's fine, Alan--but my question was to your confusing statements here:


    Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post Faith is never alone,

    for faith always has some works with it.
    Yet we are not saved by Grace though faith AND works,
    Again--if faith is never alone--and always has "some works with it"--then how could it not be by grace through a faith with works?

  20. #120
    Super Moderator alanmolstad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    That's fine, Alan--but my question was to your confusing statements here:






    Again--if faith is never alone--and always has "some works with it"--then how could it not be by grace through a faith with works?
    We are saved.......saved by grace though faith..


    Now with our faith comes likely all kinds of things, like hope, trust , love, honesty, dreams, etc,etc,etc...for faith brings forth out of the heart of the Christian all types of things.

    But as for how we are actually "saved", its just the following....


    We are saved by grace though faith.



    Not faith "and" anything else.........just faith and faith alone.



    (But as I said, our faith is never alone)
    From the Forum RULES : "As you know, the Walter Martin website takes the position that Mormon theology is not Christian theology. Use of the term "LDS Christian" is inaccurate and misleading, and as such is not acceptable on this board."

  21. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    That's fine, Alan--but my question was to your confusing statements here:






    Again--if faith is never alone--and always has "some works with it"--then how could it not be by grace through a faith with works?
    What is this need the Mormons seem to have to attempt to sneak "with works" into the verse?


    Why would the Mormons hate the idea that the verse just says we are saved by Grace though faith and not by works so much that they always attempt to add just a bit more to make it look like works play a part in salvation?
    Last edited by alanmolstad; 10-07-2017 at 10:18 AM.
    From the Forum RULES : "As you know, the Walter Martin website takes the position that Mormon theology is not Christian theology. Use of the term "LDS Christian" is inaccurate and misleading, and as such is not acceptable on this board."

  22. #122
    Super Moderator alanmolstad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    That's fine, Alan--but my question was to your confusing statements here:






    Again--if faith is never alone--and always has "some works with it"--then how could it not be by grace through a faith with works?



    The verse that is the rule on this topic is that we are saved by grace though faith and not by works.


    The Bible goes out of it's way to make sure that we are to understand that it is "not by works".

    Yet the Mormons seem to need to try to change this?



    Why cant a Mormon just say, "Yes, we are saved by grace though faith and not by works" and leave it at that?


    Why do they need to add to the text?
    Last edited by alanmolstad; 10-07-2017 at 10:17 AM.
    From the Forum RULES : "As you know, the Walter Martin website takes the position that Mormon theology is not Christian theology. Use of the term "LDS Christian" is inaccurate and misleading, and as such is not acceptable on this board."

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