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Thread: The confusing theology of the faith alone

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    Default The confusing theology of the faith alone

    Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post----It states that we are saved by grace through faith--not that is where obedience comes from. And we are not saved by faith either. We are saved by GRACE through faith.

    The question is--is that faith alone, or dead faith that this grace flows through--or faith that is combined with works?

    Libby--please identify when this grace flows through faith--before the works--or after works are combined with faith.

    If it is before--then we are saved through dead faith:

    James 2:20---King James Version (KJV)


    20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
    Quote Originally Posted by James Banta View Post
    I agree with that passage. If we say we are saved and then sit down and not allow God to use us to do His good will among men we are not His.

    James--you connect works with salvation here. Can we not be His--and still be saved?

    Comments?

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    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    James--you connect works with salvation here. Can we not be His--and still be saved?

    Comments?
    Ephesians 2
    8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God
    9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    Ephesians 2
    8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God
    9 not by works, so that no one can boast.
    Not by faith, not by works, not by trust, not by obedience, not by belief--but by grace. And that leaves but one question. Who does God's grace unto life go to?


    Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)


    9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    Not by faith, not by works, not by trust, not by obedience, not by belief--but by grace.
    Ephesians 2
    8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God
    9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    Ephesians 2
    8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God
    9 not by works, so that no one can boast.
    Do you believe this is a reference to dead faith?


    James 2:20-26---King James Version (KJV)

    20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

    21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

    22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

    23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

    24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

    25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

    26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.


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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    Do you believe this is a reference to dead faith?
    If a person does not have faith then he will not be saved.

    Ephesians 2
    8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
    9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

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    MARTUREO
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    Do you believe this is a reference to dead faith?


    James 2:20-26---King James Version (KJV)

    20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

    21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

    22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

    23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

    24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

    25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

    26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

    Please, I beg you (although I know it won't happen) READ THE TEXT PROPERLY.

    "What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?" (James 2:14)

    That faith is death faith as it is not accompanied by works.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MARTUREO View Post
    Please, I beg you (although I know it won't happen) READ THE TEXT PROPERLY.

    "What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?" (James 2:14)

    That faith is death faith as it is not accompanied by works.
    So--can dead faith save one?

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    James Banta
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    So--can dead faith save one?
    We will all say no, but works can't save at all.. Only the grace of God given to those whom hold faith in Jesus can save.. It is NOT a combination of both grace and works..

    Romans 11:6
    And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.


    The Holy Spirit through Paul makes it quite clear that it's all about the grace of God and has nothing to do with our efforts.. IHS jim

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    nrajeffreturns
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    Quote Originally Posted by James Banta View Post
    We will all say no, but works can't save at all..
    So do we all agree that you can't be saved by works alone, AND that you can't be saved by faith alone either?

    Because that's what the Bible seems to be teaching.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    So--can dead faith save one?
    At what part of faith does it go from being dead to alive?
    At what part of faith does it go from being alive to dead?
    I will wait for your response.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns View Post
    So do we all agree that you can't be saved by works alone, AND that you can't be saved by faith alone either?

    Because that's what the Bible seems to be teaching.
    Heya Jeff,

    There are those who misconstrue Paul's words, then and now, who apply them in the manner to which you object. I object to their idea as well for it is the same observation which James made.

    According to His parable, the Pharisees (of whom Jesus said had the keys to the Kingdom) claimed faith but left the robbery victim by the side of the road but the socially outcast Samaritan helped him. There will be those who claim faith who cast out demons, heal the sick, and prophesy in His name but are not known by Him. The soil of the hearts of men which is shallow in which the seeds springs to faith but dies out because of no root or those in whom it grows but are choked by weeds of life are are not the good soil where there is much good fruit. You cannot have good fruit without a good tree. In matters of the heart, only God knows whose outward faith, even if it produces works, is saving faith; which the scripture teaches is also a gift and that not of ourselves otherwise we could take some credit for it.

    God's grace is a response to our faith placed in Him and Him alone for our salvation. Our born again (after faith) works likewise must be out of grati-tude for such a great salvation while we were yet sinners Christ died for us; like Zacheus out of joy of his lunch with Jesus in his home returned four fold any stolen monies and the ONE leper (out of ten) who returned to thank Jesus for the healing given them because they believed in Him and like Paul who counted his pre-Christ life works of the law as filthy rags.

    We are healed by His stripes; the affliction of the deserved judgement is removed from us by Him and Him alone otherwise we detract from His sacrifice in effect saying it is not good enough I must contribute, I must make up for the bad things I did which broke fellowship with Him. May it never be but rather may the motivation of our works be humble grati-tude. These works by the way do have rewards in Heaven, Gems and Crowns and such ranging from the least to the greatest in the Kingdom to come. However having one's name written in the Lamb's book of Life, that is His gift for which He labored on the cross to give to those who believe: Jesus speaking "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life." Jn3:14,15

    Grace and Peace,

    May His name be praised,

    MacG
    "Said I'm not what I ought to be, but I'm better, better than I used to be, I'm gettin better all the time" - Blind Boys of Alabama Ephesians 4:22-24 NASB ..."that, in reference to your former manner of life, you lay aside the old self, which is being corrupted in accordance with the lusts of deceit, and that you be renewed in the spirit of your mind, and put on the new self, which in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness and holiness of the truth"

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    nrajeffreturns
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacG View Post
    Heya Jeff,
    Hi Mac. How are things?

    There are those who misconstrue Paul's words, then and now, who apply them in the manner to which you object. I object to their idea as well for it is the same observation which James made.
    According to His parable, the Pharisees (of whom Jesus said had the keys to the Kingdom) claimed faith but left the robbery victim by the side of the road but the socially outcast Samaritan helped him. There will be those who claim faith who cast out demons, heal the sick, and prophesy in His name but are not known by Him. The soil of the hearts of men which is shallow in which the seeds springs to faith but dies out because of no root or those in whom it grows but are choked by weeds of life are are not the good soil where there is much good fruit. You cannot have good fruit without a good tree. In matters of the heart, only God knows whose outward faith, even if it produces works, is saving faith; which the scripture teaches is also a gift and that not of ourselves otherwise we could take some credit for it.
    God's grace is a response to our faith placed in Him and Him alone for our salvation. Our born again (after faith) works likewise must be out of grati-tude for such a great salvation while we were yet sinners Christ died for us; like Zacheus out of joy of his lunch with Jesus in his home returned four fold any stolen monies and the ONE leper (out of ten) who returned to thank Jesus for the healing given them because they believed in Him and like Paul who counted his pre-Christ life works of the law as filthy rags. We are healed by His stripes; the affliction of the deserved judgement is removed from us by Him and Him alone otherwise we detract from His sacrifice in effect saying it is not good enough I must contribute, I must make up for the bad things I did which broke fellowship with Him. May it never be but rather may the motivation of our works be humble grati-tude. These works by the way do have rewards in Heaven, Gems and Crowns and such ranging from the least to the greatest in the Kingdom to come. However having one's name written in the Lamb's book of Life, that is His gift for which He labored on the cross to give to those who believe: Jesus speaking "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life." Jn3:14,15
    Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I liked what you said, and I agree with it all, especially "may the motivation of our works be humble grati-tude." Except perhaps I might disagree with the idea that saving faith "is also a gift and that not of ourselves otherwise we could take some credit for it."

    The verse could be saying that the gift is the GRACE, not the faith. Or, it could also be saying that the gift is salvation.

    IMO, we are all born with the ability, once we achieve basic cognition skills, to have saving faith. So why do many people fail to have saving faith? It can't be God's fault, it can't be because He denied those people that ability. So the answer must be that many people CHOOSE to not have saving faith. And that means that those who choose to have saving faith probably SHOULD get some credit for making the right choice. If you're in a pit where a rope is available to climb out, you should get some credit for choosing to use it and climb up to a better place. It doesn't mean that you made the rope or that you were the one who lowered it down into the pit. But there is nothing wrong with someone telling you "You made the right choice--well done."

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    Things are well thanks for asking. You? BTW I have always appreciated your general demeanor towards me, thanks.

    However like a moth drawn to the flame I cannot seem to escape this board

    The verse could be saying that the gift is the GRACE, not the faith. Or, it could also be saying that the gift is salvation.
    Well it seems that this ol brain has a little crust on it so I re-read that first part of Eph. 2 from 1-10. As I am no grammarian, it may well be that salvation is the subject of the word gift. If you take salvation of the sentence it makes little sense. It still supports that the belief is the cause of the action e.g. looking to the bronze serpent in order to live, don't believe it, so don't look already.

    I still have trouble with the idea that one deserves credit for believing for no one come to Me unless the Father draws him and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion for Jacob I loved but Easu I hated. Ep 2:1 "And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. 3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest."

    Yet while I was dead I was invited to follow Him. I can only see it as a sort of paradox for me but what is clear is that I have nothing aside from faith to do with my salvation for faith comes from hearing and hearing by the Word of God. How did I hear it if I was dead? He wants people to follow but he spoke in parables to some intentionally obscuring the Word. If you believe, you repent, you follow, you bear His fruit, if you don't believe, you don't repent, you don't follow, you don't bear His fruit.
    "Said I'm not what I ought to be, but I'm better, better than I used to be, I'm gettin better all the time" - Blind Boys of Alabama Ephesians 4:22-24 NASB ..."that, in reference to your former manner of life, you lay aside the old self, which is being corrupted in accordance with the lusts of deceit, and that you be renewed in the spirit of your mind, and put on the new self, which in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness and holiness of the truth"

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    I am doing pretty good. I think the verses you cited are indeed the good ones to use to support the "It's 100% God and 0% me" side of the argument. And it does indeed seem to be a paradox when we look at the other verses--the ones that seem to teach that it's more like 99% God and 1% us.

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    James Banta
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    Quote Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns View Post
    I am doing pretty good. I think the verses you cited are indeed the good ones to use to support the "It's 100% God and 0% me" side of the argument. And it does indeed seem to be a paradox when we look at the other verses--the ones that seem to teach that it's more like 99% God and 1% us.
    That would mean there is something we need to DO to gain God's grace.. That is NOT the meaning of grace.. If there was anything we could do to save ourselves that Jesus died in vain.. It has been LDS teaching from the time of Joseph Smith that we are saved by grace only after we do all we can do.. The question is who does all they can do? Isn't there one more person we could tell about the Gospel? One more hungry person we could feed? One more lonely elder we could visit? One more dollar we could put to use in easing the burden of the poor? Every day we miss innumerable opportunities to be the hands, and feet of Jesus. Sorry but it is our nature even in our faith to fall short of God's glory.. Jesus either has to become our righteousness or we have NONE.. IHS jim

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    James Banta
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    Quote Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns View Post
    So do we all agree that you can't be saved by works alone, AND that you can't be saved by faith alone either?

    Because that's what the Bible seems to be teaching.
    What did I just say? Here it is again please read it again... "We will all say no, but works can't save at all..


    I have explained already that The Holy Spirit though Paul has taught us that our salvation is either by Grace or by works. It is not both.

    Romans 11:6
    And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.


    IHS jim
    Last edited by James Banta; 06-30-2013 at 11:04 AM.

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    nrajeffreturns
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    Quote Originally Posted by James Banta View Post
    That would mean there is something we need to DO to gain God's grace..
    I take it you didn't click on the link I provided, to the site that shows the differences between Calvinism and Arminianism. So I will just tell you one part of it: It says that Arminianism teaches that Christ died for ALL of us, but only those of us who choose to follow Christ make His atonement efficacious for our salvation.

    In simpler terms, that means that Arminian CHRISTIANS believe that there is something we need to DO in order for God's salvific grace to be applied for us.


    If there was anything we could do to save ourselves that Jesus died in vain.
    There IS something we can do that will result in our being saved: It's called CHOOSING TO FOLLOW CHRIST.
    Read your Bible and learn that the Bible teaches that choosing to follow Christ will result in your being saved. That means that there IS something we can do that will result in our being saved.

    You may completely hate that fact, but there is nothing you can do about it. It's part of the Bible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns View Post
    I take it you didn't click on the link I provided, to the site that shows the differences between Calvinism and Arminianism. So I will just tell you one part of it: It says that Arminianism teaches that Christ died for ALL of us, but only those of us who choose to follow Christ make His atonement efficacious for our salvation.

    In simpler terms, that means that Arminian CHRISTIANS believe that there is something we need to DO in order for God's salvific grace to be applied for us.



    There IS something we can do that will result in our being saved: It's called CHOOSING TO FOLLOW CHRIST.
    Read your Bible and learn that the Bible teaches that choosing to follow Christ will result in your being saved. That means that there IS something we can do that will result in our being saved.

    You may completely hate that fact, but there is nothing you can do about it. It's part of the Bible.
    So, you can be a Christian and follow Arminius's interpretation - what's the problem? We're not saved by Calvin, but Jesus. Don't put your trust in the "arm of flesh," because down the road it will disappoint you Jeff.
    Oath formerly taken by Mormons promising not to reveal secret Mormon temple rituals: "Should we do so, we agree to have our breasts cut open and our hearts and vitals torn from our bodies and given to the birds of the air and the beasts of the field."

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    James Banta
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    [nrajeffreturns;146346]I take it you didn't click on the link I provided, to the site that shows the differences between Calvinism and Arminianism. So I will just tell you one part of it: It says that Arminianism teaches that Christ died for ALL of us, but only those of us who choose to follow Christ make His atonement efficacious for our salvation.

    In simpler terms, that means that Arminian CHRISTIANS believe that there is something we need to DO in order for God's salvific grace to be applied for us.
    Arminianism
    1. Free-will or human ability. Although human nature was seriously affected by the fall, man has not been left in a state of total spiritual helplessness. God graciously enables every sinner to repent and believe but does not interfere with man’s freedom. Each sinner possesses a free will, and his eternal destiny depends on how he uses it. Man’s freedom consists in his ability to choose good over evil in spiritual matters. The sinner has the power to either cooperate with God’s Spirit and be regenerated or resist God’s grace and perish. The lost sinner needs the Spirit’s assistance but he does not have to be regenerated by the Spirit before he can believe, for faith is man’s act and precedes the new birth. Faith is the sinner’s gift to God; it is man’s contribution to salvation.

    Can you see that even the Arminiam believes that a man is saves by God's grace through faith in Jesus?

    2. Conditional election. God’s choice of certain individuals unto salvation before the foundation of the world was based upon His foreseeing that they would respond to His call. He selected only those whom He knew would of themselves freely believe the Gospel. Election therefore was determined by or conditioned upon what man would do. The faith which God foresaw, and upon which He based His choice, was not given to the sinner by God (it was not created by the regenerating power of the Holy Spirit) but resulted solely from man’s will. It was left entirely up to man as to who would believe and therefore as to who would be elected unto salvation. God chose those whom He knew would, of their own free will, choose Christ. Thus the sinner’s choice of Christ—not God’s choice of the sinner—is the ultimate cause of salvation.

    This is the same thing I have been saying since \I fist started witness to the LDS online, and yet you call me a Calvinist.

    3. Universal redemption or general atonement. Christ’s redeeming work made it possible for everyone to be saved but did not actually secure the salvation of anyone. Although Christ died for all men and for every man, only those who believe on Him are saved. His death enabled God to pardon sinners on the condition that they believe, but it did not actually put away anyone’s sins. Christ’s redemption becomes effective only if man chooses to accept it.

    Salvation by the grace of God through faith in Jesus.. Here it is plainly stated "only those who believe on Him are saved" That is the same thing that Calvinist believe!

    4. The Holy Spirit can be effectually resisted. The Spirit calls inwardly all those who are called outwardly by the gospel invitation. He does all that He can to bring every sinner to salvation. But inasmuch as man is free, he can successfully resist the Spirit’s call. The Spirit cannot regenerate the sinner until he believes; faith (which is man’s contribution) precedes and makes possible the new birth. Thus, man’s free will limits the Spirit in the application of Christ’s saving work. The Holy Spirit can only draw to Christ those who allow Him to have His way with them. Until the sinner responds, the Spirit cannot give life. God’s grace, therefore, is not invincible; it can be— and often is—resisted and thwarted by man.

    No Calvinist believes that everyone will be a saved, but only those that are chosen by God to be so.. Arminius had a different way of saying the same thing Calvinist teach but the meanings are exactly the same thing..

    5. Falling from grace. Those who believe and are truly saved can lose their salvation by failing to keep up their faith, etc. All Arminians have not been agreed on this point; some have held that believers are eternally secure in Christ, that once a sinner is regenerated, he can never be lost.

    At last some separation? No! It's the same thing again in different words.. Since know one can look at a believer and say "You have true faith, and another only a head knowledge: it is just as believable to say that all that say they believe and then fall awau never really believed deep in their hearts and therefore were never saved in the first place.. This is again the save doctrine that the Calvinist hold in different wording.. Look at this last statement there are some that agree 100% even in the wording of eternal security with the Calvinist..

    There IS something we can do that will result in our being saved: It's called CHOOSING TO FOLLOW CHRIST.
    Read your Bible and learn that the Bible teaches that choosing to follow Christ will result in your being saved. That means that there IS something we can do that will result in our being saved.

    You may completely hate that fact, but there is nothing you can do about it. It's part of the Bible.
    Yes we should all follow Christ. Will doing so bring a person salvation? Not even the Arminian believe that.. They like the Calvinist put is all in God's hands through His grace. The Calvinist believes that Faith is God gift to those He calls, the Arminian believe it's man's choice in response to God's call.. That is the same thing worded differently!.. The Bible clearly teaches that everlasting life is a gift of God given to those that believe, PLUS NOTHING (John 3:16).. It doesn't say "whosoever believes and follows me, has everlasting lif0"e, NO, it says "whosoever believes" PERIOD. If we could all follow Jesus has he commanded (Matthew 5:48) then we wouldn't need His sacrifice or forgiveness. We would be saved by our own efforts. We could all live that commandment.. But can we live as that commandment demands? No! I take my authority from that statement both from the Bible (Romans 3:23), and the common knowledge of man as it is stated that "Nobody's Perfect".. We all sin. We all recognize that we have fallen short of the Commandment Jesus gave us to be so.. I recognize my failings before a Holy God. I know that I fall short of His glory, His perfection, His goodness daily. I reach out to Jesus to be not just my Lord, but my Savior. Knowing that He being tempted in every way as I understands my failure and stands in for me taking my place on the cross.

    As I have told the LDS, Jesus has forgiven me of all my sin, past, present, and future. I have had many of then ask me how He could forgive sins that are not yet committed. I answer telling them that all my sins all their sins were uncommitted as He hung on the cross (Or in your thoughts sweated in the garden). Still His blood cleanses me from ALL my sins as I held faith in Him.. Look again that is all the Arminians requires is a continued faith in Jesus, that is all the Calvinist base the theology of their salvation on as well.. THERE IN NO DIFFERENCE.. This is the knowledge found in the Bible that the LDS set aside in favor of their works based theology.. IHS jim

    Source for the 5 doctrines of Arminianism is http://www.bible-researcher.com/arminianism.html

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    Pa Pa
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    James--you connect works with salvation here. Can we not be His--and still be saved?

    Comments?
    Accept
    Ing his is a work, so when they say we do not need to do works.

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    James Banta
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pa Pa View Post
    Accept
    Ing his is a work, so when they say we do not need to do works.
    To answer you Both I will say that James in no way addresses how Grace (Which is the the real way we gain salvation, it's not found in works) come to a person. Grace is said to come to us through FAITH, and not by WORKS. Works and those works mentioned in James not the works insisted to in mormonism. reveal the faith of one Christian to another.. He said Show me your faith without your works and I will show you my faith by my works.. Can salvation be both of grace and of works? Nor according to the Holy Spirit through Paul

    Roman11:6
    And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.


    It's one or the other NOT BOTH.. IHS jim

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    Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post----It states that we are saved by grace through faith--not that is where obedience comes from. And we are not saved by faith either. We are saved by GRACE through faith.

    The question is--is that faith alone, or dead faith that this grace flows through--or faith that is combined with works?

    Libby--please identify when this grace flows through faith--before the works--or after works are combined with faith.

    If it is before--then we are saved through dead faith:

    James 2:20---King James Version (KJV)


    20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
    Quote Originally Posted by James Banta View Post---I agree with that passage. If we say we are saved and then sit down and not allow God to use us to do His good will among men we are not His.
    Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View PostJames--you connect works with salvation here. Can we not be His--and still be saved?
    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    Ephesians 2
    8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God
    9 not by works, so that no one can boast.
    James 2:20 does not make the claim works saves one--only that faith without works is dead.

    Again, the question--can one be saved through dead faith?

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    Quote Originally Posted by James Banta View Post
    What did I just say? Here it is again please read it again... "We will all say no, but works can't save at all..
    But His grace can--and that is what goes to those who obey Him:


    Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)

    38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

    James--can you explain for us what is it about repentance and water baptism you don't consider a work--and what is it about the remission of sins you don't consider God's grace?

    Because if Acts2:38 is true--that is God's grace going to those who obey Him:


    Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)

    9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

  25. #25
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    But His grace can--and that is what goes to those who obey Him:
    Romans 11:6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.

    What role do works play in grace according to this verse DB?

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