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Thread: Faith vs Works for Salvation

  1. #1
    Libby
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    Default Faith vs Works for Salvation

    I don't think, either, Mormons nor Orthodox Christians believe that we can be saved by "works" alone, so that is not really the crux of the disagreement, between these two factions.

    Here is the difference, as I see it.

    Orthodox Christians believe that faith alone is the saving principle. Works spring from faith, but do not add to salvation.

    LDS believe that faith and works are inseparable (two sides of the same coin) and, therefore, works do contribute towards salvation. There really is no salvation (in the Celestial Kingdom, at least), unless there is also obedience through works.

    Does this properly represent the crux of both sides of this argument?

  2. #2
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by Libby View Post
    I don't think, either, Mormons nor Orthodox Christians believe that we can be saved by "works" alone, so that is not really the crux of the disagreement, between these two factions.
    You are really going off the deep end now Libby if you don't see the difference between Christianity and Mormonism with respect to salvation.

  3. #3
    Libby
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    You are really going off the deep end now Libby if you don't see the difference between Christianity and Mormonism with respect to salvation.
    What are you talking about??

    I just delineated the DIFFERENCE.

    You are the one "off the deep end"....always so ready to condemn, even when you don't understand.

  4. #4
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by Libby View Post
    What are you talking about??

    I just delineated the DIFFERENCE.

    You are the one "off the deep end"....always so ready to condemn, even when you don't understand.
    I did read your post again and you did get the Christian part right in the third paragraph. LDS believe in faith AND works for salvation. Christians believe that we are saved when we place our faith in Christ and works do not contribute for salvation.

  5. #5
    Libby
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    I am simply trying to clarify the differences, so that we are all on the same page.

  6. #6
    Libby
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    LDS believe in faith AND works for salvation. Christians believe that we are saved when we place our faith in Christ and works do not contribute for salvation.
    Yes, exactly. Did you read my post?? That is exactly what I said.

  7. #7
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by Libby View Post
    Yes, exactly. Did you read my post?? That is exactly what I said.
    See post 4
    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    I did read your post again and you did get the Christian part right in the third paragraph. LDS believe in faith AND works for salvation. Christians believe that we are saved when we place our faith in Christ and works do not contribute for salvation.

  8. #8
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by Libby View Post
    I don't think, either,
    How can you say that it isn't either when you then go on to say that Christians believe that salvation is by faith and not by works?

  9. #9
    Libby
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    How can you say that it isn't either when you then go on to say that Christians believe that salvation is by faith and not by works?
    Aye.

    I am simply saying that Mormons don't believe in "work alone" for salvation, as many Christians seem to believe. They believe in a combination of faith and work for salvation.

    And, for the record, I am in the "faith alone" category. I am not defending LDS belief. Simply clarifying, in order to get a proper discussion going (where we are all on the same page).

    You and I are in agreement here, Billy, so just relax and go with it.

  10. #10
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by Libby View Post
    Aye.

    I am simply saying that Mormons don't believe in "work alone" for salvation, as many Christians seem to believe. They believe in a combination of faith and work for salvation.
    First you were wrong when you said "either". And you were wrong to ***ume that any Christian on this forum believes that Mormons don't believe they need to have faith along with works. A straw man argument on your part.

  11. #11
    Libby
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    First you were wrong when you said "either". And you were wrong to ***ume that any Christian on this forum believes that Mormons don't believe they need to have faith along with works. A straw man argument on your part.
    Not at all. Neither Christians nor Mormons believe in "work alone" for salvation. That is absolutely the truth.

    Secondly, just because the couple of Christians on this board don't misunderstand that, doesn't mean all critics know this. I have met several who have made that claim.

    Just trying to clarify (for lurkers or whomever wanders in here). You don't have to get your feathers ruffled over nothing, Billy. I know all you want to do is fight....and can't tolerate that we might actually agree on some things, but you're just gonna have to cope with that.

  12. #12
    Libby
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    After I get some agreement on the OP, I will put up a defense for salvation through "faith alone".

  13. #13
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by Libby View Post
    Not at all. Neither Christians nor Mormons believe in "work alone" for salvation. That is absolutely the truth.
    Here is what you said.

    "Faith vs Works for Salvation
    I don't think, either. . ."

    It is either for Christianity. Christians believe that it is by faith and not by works.

  14. #14
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by Libby View Post
    Secondly, just because the couple of Christians on this board don't misunderstand that, doesn't mean all critics know this. I have met several who have made that claim.
    No Christians on this board-- that I have ever seen--have made the claim that mormons believe that faith is not required for salvation. A pure straw man argument.

  15. #15
    Libby
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    No straw argument, since I know some who do make this argument. And, just because they are not on this board, doesn't mean they are not lurking.

    Anyway, does anyone have a problem with the differences I cited in the OP?

    Here is the difference, as I see it.

    Orthodox Christians believe that faith alone is the saving principle. Works spring from faith, but do not add to salvation.

    LDS believe that faith and works are inseparable (two sides of the same coin) and, therefore, works do contribute towards salvation. There really is no salvation (in the Celestial Kingdom, at least), unless there is also obedience through works.

  16. #16
    Libby
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    I'm going to present some Bible verses that I believe support the "faith alone" view. When I say "faith alone", I simply mean that we are saved based on faith in Jesus Christ...that he is our Savior and Redeemer. Good works will naturally spring from that faith, but the works are a byproduct (the fruit of salvation) and not a part of our actual salvation, which is by grace through faith, alone.

    John 3:18, 36
    He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already .... He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

    Acts 16:30-31
    Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

    Romans 3:20, 28
    By the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight. A man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

    Romans 4:2
    For if Abraham were justified by works he hath whereof to glory? (v.28)
    Romans 4:13
    For the promise ... was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

    Romans 5:1
    Therefore, being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.

    That's a few for starters.

  17. #17
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by Libby View Post
    I'm going to present some Bible verses that I believe support the "faith alone" view. .
    who teaches that we are saved by "faith alone"...?

  18. #18
    Libby
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    who teaches that we are saved by "faith alone"...?
    Most Protestant Churches, Alan.

  19. #19
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by Libby View Post
    Most Protestant Churches, Alan.
    Salvation is by faith and works do not contribute for salvation.

  20. #20
    Libby
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    Salvation is by faith and works do not contribute for salvation.
    Yes, well, you need to direct that to Alan, as he is the one who implied that we are not saved by faith alone. I happen to agree with you and have set out to provide evidence for that belief.

  21. #21
    Libby
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    who teaches that we are saved by "faith alone"...?
    So, what is your belief on this issue, exactly, Alan? Where do you stand on the faith vs works issues? Do you believe that works are necessary for salvation?

  22. #22
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by Libby View Post
    Yes, well, you need to direct that to Alan, as he is the one who implied that we are not saved by faith alone. I happen to agree with you and have set out to provide evidence for that belief.
    >>>>>

    I quoted dr Walter Martin...I posted the link to the video where he goes on to make this point very clear and provides the Bible verses that support this understanding.

    We are not saved by Faith alone.
    We are not saved by Works alone
    We are not saved by faith and works
    We are not saved by works and faith.

    We are ONLY saved by Grace though faith and not by works.

    Now here is the video that makes this clear.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rcf1J6AJB9M .PLEASE listen to it,(it's short)and try not to ask a question that is answered on the video more clearly than i could ever match.







    case-closed...

  23. #23
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by Libby View Post
    So, what is your belief on this issue, exactly, Alan? Where do you stand on the faith vs works issues? Do you believe that works are necessary for salvation?
    I believe you dont have a clue what billy nor i are saying....

    I believe your use of the wording of being saved by "faith alone" shows just how in the dark you are about what is being said.

    it suggests to me that Billy and i should drop back and really make a totally new effort to define our terms, as what you are saying show us both that you are clue-free as to what we are saying, and as to what the message of the Christian church is...

    it shows me that while you may be quick to confess that you reject the christian church teachings on salvation, yet on examination you display a real lack of understanding of the things you so quickly claim to reject....

  24. #24
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by Libby View Post
    Most Protestant Churches, Alan.
    Your being foolish.....or.....your understanding of the Protestant church is poor....

    You need to back that up.....or admit that you may not have a real great understanding of Protestant church teaching on being saved by GRACe though faith and not by works as is taught in the Scriptures

  25. #25
    alanmolstad
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    see,,,,you go on, and on telling everyone how you reject the christian church teachings I share with you on salvation, but yet when you try to define what im saying you only show how very little you know of what I speak...

    So it's a bit hard for me to deal with what you are saying, and deal with the things you are rejecting when what you are rejecting is not actually part of the Teachings you are hearing from me or Billy....


    So dont ask me to defend the "faith alone' teachings when i have told you over and over and OVER that no such teachings are in the church or in the BIBLE!.,.....

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