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Thread: The confusing theology of the faith alone

  1. #26
    dberrie2000
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    Originally Posted by James Banta View Post---What did I just say? Here it is again please read it again... "We will all say no, but works can't save at all..
    Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post----But His grace can--and that is what goes to those who obey Him:


    Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)

    38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

    James--can you explain for us what is it about repentance and water baptism you don't consider a work--and what is it about the remission of sins you don't consider God's grace?

    Because if Acts2:38 is true--that is God's grace going to those who obey Him:


    Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)

    9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    Romans 11:6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.

    What role do works play in grace....
    When referring to obedience to the gospel of Jesus Christ--it is the basis whereby we receive His grace unto life--as the above scriptures show.

    according to this verse DB?
    Paul usually denoted the Mosaic Law when he used the term "works"--that is now the belief of many scholars. If you believe he was referring to obedience to the gospel of Christ--could you explain this:


    Romans 2:5-11----King James Version (KJV)


    5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

    6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

    7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

    8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

    9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

    10
    But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

    11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

  2. #27
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    When referring to obedience to the gospel of Jesus Christ--it is the basis whereby we receive His grace unto life--as the above scriptures show.
    Romans 11:6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.

    What role do works play in grace according to Romans 11:6?

  3. #28
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    Romans 2:5-11----King James Version (KJV)


    5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

    6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

    7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

    8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

    9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

    10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

    11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
    Romans 2:13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.

    Don't forget verse 13. According to verse 13 are those who obey the Law just before God?

  4. #29
    nrajeffreturns
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    The works of the Torah (The Law) play no role in salvation, because it's possible to obey the letter without obeying the spirit of them. Jesus introduced a new set of laws, which have no loopholes. You are actually commanded to love your neighbor, both enemies and friends. If you disobey that commandment, you get no eternal life because you aren't obeying one of the 2 great commandments according to Jesus.

    In Jesus' commandments for eternal life, you can't cheat.

  5. #30
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    If you believe he was referring to obedience to the gospel of Christ--could you explain this:


    Romans 2:5-11----King James Version (KJV)


    5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

    6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

    7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

    8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

    9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

    10
    But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

    11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
    Sure. Perfect obedience to the commandments is the standard for justification if we are to rely on our own personal righteousness for salvation. Those who do obey the law perfectly will be justified. Now read on to chapter 3 and see what else Paul tells us about this.

  6. #31
    dberrie2000
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    Romans 11:6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.

    What role do works play in grace according to Romans 11:6?
    The works of Romans11:6 is the Mosaic Law. Those works do not play any part in His grace unto salvation--or anything salvation--period.

    But if you want to explore what the works of the gospel of Jesus Christ play in grace--it is the basis for receiving God's grace--for example:


    Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)

    38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

  7. #32
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    The works of Romans11:6 is the Mosaic Law. Those works do not play any part in His grace unto salvation--or anything salvation--period.
    So under the Mosaic Law works do not play any role in grace. Is that correct?

  8. #33
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    Those works do not play any part in His grace unto salvation--or anything salvation--period.
    Then how was anyone saved in the OT under the Law?

  9. #34
    dberrie2000
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    Originally Posted by Billyray View Post---Romans 11:6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.

    What role do works play in grace according to Romans 11:6?
    Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---The works of Romans11:6 is the Mosaic Law. Those works do not play any part in His grace unto salvation--or anything salvation--period.

    But if you want to explore what the works of the gospel of Jesus Christ play in grace--it is the basis for receiving God's grace--for example:


    Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)

    38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    Then how was anyone saved in the OT under the Law?
    There was no salvation under the Mosaic Law. There was no eternal life for mankind until Christ's Atonement. All had to await that day before they could inherit eternal life. That was the reason for Paradise.

    So--what do you say concerning God giving His grace to unto life to those who obey His gospel--and only to those who obey?


    1 Peter 4:17---King James Version (KJV)

    17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

  10. #35
    dberrie2000
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    So under the Mosaic Law works do not play any role in grace. Is that correct?
    What grace under the Mosaic Law? You could not be referring to the grace unto life--as there was none under the Mosaic Law--and if there was--then there was no need for a new covenant.


    Hebrews 10:4---King James Version (KJV)

    4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

  11. #36
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    The works of Romans11:6 is the Mosaic Law.
    Romans 11:6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.

    OK so you say that verse 6 us speaking about the Mosaic law, what role do works play in grace according to verse 6?

  12. #37
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    You could not be referring to the grace unto life--as there was none under the Mosaic Law--and if there was--then there was no need for a new covenant.
    But you realize that a person could be saved by keeping the Law. Or didn't you know that?

  13. #38
    dberrie2000
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    But you realize that a person could be saved by keeping the Law. Or didn't you know that?
    A couple of points here:

    1) If you are referring to the Mosaic Law--no one was able to keep it.

    2) The Blood of Bulls and goats were not able to remiss sins:


    Hebrews 10:4---King James Version (KJV)

    4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.


    The possibility of the remission of sins did not happen until Christ's Atonement under the NT.

  14. #39
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    A couple of points here:

    1) If you are referring to the Mosaic Law--no one was able to keep it.

    2) The Blood of Bulls and goats were not able to remiss sins:


    Hebrews 10:4---King James Version (KJV)

    4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.


    The possibility of the remission of sins did not happen until Christ's Atonement under the NT.
    So you disagree with the Bible when it says that a person could be saved by keeping the Law (i.e works)?

  15. #40
    RealFakeHair
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    A couple of points here:

    1) If you are referring to the Mosaic Law--no one was able to keep it.

    2) The Blood of Bulls and goats were not able to remiss sins:


    Hebrews 10:4---King James Version (KJV)

    4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.


    The possibility of the remission of sins did not happen until Christ's Atonement under the NT.
    Sorry but that, but you are wrong again......Jesus forgave many a sin before He went to the Cross. Okay next please?

  16. #41
    nrajeffreturns
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    Quote Originally Posted by RealFakeHair View Post
    Sorry but that, but you are wrong again......Jesus forgave many a sin before He went to the Cross. Okay next please?
    Interesting statement. So people's sins were being remitted before Jesus paid the price for them?

  17. #42
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by RealFakeHair View Post
    Sorry but that, but you are wrong again......Jesus forgave many a sin before He went to the Cross.
    Quote Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns View Post
    Interesting statement. So people's sins were being remitted before Jesus paid the price for them?
    Luke 7
    44 Then he turned toward the woman and said to Simon, “Do you see this woman? I came into your house. You did not give me any water for my feet, but she wet my feet with her tears and wiped them with her hair.
    45 You did not give me a kiss, but this woman, from the time I entered, has not stopped kissing my feet.
    46 You did not put oil on my head, but she has poured perfume on my feet.
    47 Therefore, I tell you, her many sins have been forgiven—as her great love has shown. But whoever has been forgiven little loves little.”
    48 Then Jesus said to her, “Your sins are forgiven.”
    Jeff did "Jesus forgave many a sin before He went to the Cross?

  18. #43
    dberrie2000
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    Originally Posted by Billyray View Post---But you realize that a person could be saved by keeping the Law. Or didn't you know that?
    Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post

    A couple of points here:

    1) If you are referring to the Mosaic Law--no one was able to keep it.

    2) The Blood of Bulls and goats were not able to remiss sins:


    Hebrews 10:4---King James Version (KJV)

    4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.


    The possibility of the remission of sins did not happen until Christ's Atonement under the NT.
    Quote Originally Posted by RealFakeHair View Post
    Sorry but that, but you are wrong again......Jesus forgave many a sin before He went to the Cross. Okay next please?
    But under the NT--all were commanded to repent and be baptized for the remission of sins--and that was made possible through the Atonement of Jesus Christ--and His blood sacrifice:


    Ephesians 1:7---King James Version (KJV)

    7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

    Hair--the forgiveness of sins comes through the Blood of Christ--period. There was nothing else ever sufficient whereby sins could be forgiven, nor will be--past, present, or future of that great Atonement of Jesus Christ.

  19. #44
    Ma'am
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    We do our good works BECAUSE we are saved not to become saved. They are the by-product of our faith in Jesus Christ and proof that true faith is there for a false faith gives lip service to faith in Jesus, whereas a true faith in Jesus Christ expresses itself in acts of love and kindness towards others. We treat others as Jesus would want us to treat them.

    So, there is NOTHING in the least confusing about faith alone, through grace alone. "For by grace you are saved; through faith--and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God--and NOT by works, so no man may boast." We are saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ our Lord.

  20. #45
    nrajeffreturns
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ma'am View Post
    So, there is NOTHING in the least confusing about faith alone, through grace alone.
    The above is nominated for Most Ironic Statement of 2014.

    "For by grace you are saved; through faith--and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God--and NOT by works, so no man may boast." We are saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ our Lord.

  21. #46
    dberrie2000
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ma'am View Post
    We do our good works BECAUSE we are saved not to become saved.
    That might not fit the scriptures in all ways:


    John 5:28-29----King James Version (KJV)

    28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

    29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.

    Could you explain why Christ testified to the fact all will be judged according to their deeds--and that for life or ****ation?


    Matthew 16:27---King James Version (KJV)

    27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

    They are the by-product of our faith in Jesus Christ and proof that true faith is there for a false faith gives lip service to faith in Jesus,
    That begs the question--is true faith necessary for salvation? Or, are we first saved by false, dead faith--and it becomes true faith following being saved?


    James 2:26---King James Version (KJV)

    26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.


    whereas a true faith in Jesus Christ expresses itself in acts of love and kindness towards others. We treat others as Jesus would want us to treat them.

    So, there is NOTHING in the least confusing about faith alone,
    Except for the fact there is but one mention of "faith alone" in any translation you would use:


    James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)

    24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

    "For by grace you are saved; through faith--and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God--and NOT by works, so no man may boast." We are saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ our Lord.
    Do you believe that is dead faith it refers to?

    James 2:26---King James Version (KJV)

    26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

  22. #47
    Ma'am
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    Quote Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns View Post
    The above is nominated for Most Ironic Statement of 2014.
    Where is the irony? Did Paul mean by grace through faith in anyone besides Jesus Christ? Paul wrote what he wrote.

    It is obvious that you don't understand the true gospel of Jesus Christ.

  23. #48
    dberrie2000
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ma'am View Post
    Where is the irony? Did Paul mean by grace through faith in anyone besides Jesus Christ? Paul wrote what he wrote.

    It is obvious that you don't understand the true gospel of Jesus Christ.
    You mean this one?


    Matthew 19:16-18---King James Version (KJV)


    16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?

    17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

    18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,

    If that is true--faith alone theology is false. Ma'am--the scriptures have God giving His salvational grace to them that obey Him--and faith alone cannot fit into that theology.

    James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)

    24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

  24. #49
    Ma'am
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    That might not fit the scriptures in all ways:


    John 5:28-29----King James Version (KJV)

    28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

    29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.

    Could you explain why Christ testified to the fact all will be judged according to their deeds--and that for life or ****ation?


    Matthew 16:27---King James Version (KJV)

    27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.



    That begs the question--is true faith necessary for salvation? Or, are we first saved by false, dead faith--and it becomes true faith following being saved?


    James 2:26---King James Version (KJV)

    26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.




    Except for the fact there is but one mention of "faith alone" in any translation you would use:


    James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)

    24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.



    Do you believe that is dead faith it refers to?

    James 2:26---King James Version (KJV)

    26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
    True faith always results in true good works, done out of gra***ude for the salvation we receive from Christ Jesus our Lord.

    And I believe you are wrong about the mention of "faith alone" in any translation we could use. Doesn't Joseph Smith, in his translation, say that we are saved by grace through faith alone, in Eph. 2:8? I will need to check. No, it is Romans 3:8--here it is:

    Such comments seem to overlook one very important "correction" Joseph Smith made to the Bible in 1833. In his Inspired Version (A.K.A. Joseph Smith Translation) of the Bible, Smith altered Romans 3:28. The King James Version (the official Bible of the LDS Church) reads: "Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law." However, Joseph Smith included one simple word to his rendition of this beloved p***age. In his "translation" Smith added the word alone. Today it reads: "Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith alone without the deeds of the law."
    I believe it is Joseph Smith who is or rather was, the confused one. He couldn't seem to get his beliefs straight, the way he added and subtracted from Scripture in his own rendition of the Bible.

    from http://www.mrm.org/faith-alone-in-jst


    But I see nothing confusing in the grace through faith alone salvation. Jesus did all that is necessary to save us; we can do nothing to help save ourselves. If we could, then Jesus would not have cried triumphantly from the cross, "It is finished!" If there still remained stuff we have to to help save ourselves, He would have shouted instead, "To be continued!"

    By the way, was Paul wrong in what he wrote in Eph. 2:8? He said we are saved by grace through faith and not by works, so no one can boast. Therefore, what is there left to be saved by?

  25. #50
    Ma'am
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    You mean this one?


    Matthew 19:16-18---King James Version (KJV)


    16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?

    17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

    18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,

    If that is true--faith alone theology is false. Ma'am--the scriptures have God giving His salvational grace to them that obey Him--and faith alone cannot fit into that theology.

    James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)

    24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.
    Like most Mormons, you are talented at picking and choosing which verses to use to supposedly support your beliefs, while ignoring those that do not. Was Paul wrong when he wrote, "For by grace you are saved; through faith--and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God--and not by works, so no man may boast"?

    Was Paul wrong when he wrote in Romans 4:4-5, "Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness."

    Was he wrong when he also wrote, in Romans 3:24--"...being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus..."

    See? Justification--being declared righteous and not guilty by God on account of our faith in Christ Jesus--is a gift. Was Paul wrong?

    Was he wrong when he wrote, "For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is life eternal in Christ Jesus our Lord." (Rom. 6:23).

    Paul writes that salvation and justification are FREE from God in Christ Jesus our Lord. If we have to do good works before God will give us this justification and salvation, how, then, can they be FREE?

    James is talking about a living faith. I think he said to be "doers of the word and not hearers only." Our faith we declare in Christ Jesus should be backed up by deeds. But until we DO have faith in Jesus Christ, we can do nothing pleasing to God. How can we, when the unsaved are dead in their tresp***es and sins and in the uncircumcision of their hearts?

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