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Thread: The confusing theology of the faith alone

  1. #76
    Pa Pa
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    Quote Originally Posted by James Banta View Post
    Good solid Trinitarian doctrine. Three separate persons, one God.. That is a long way from the teaching of Joseph Smith as he said there are three persons and three Gods.
    First Christ the "became" the author of Salvation...and learned obedience though the things which he suffered. Now had could Christ, become something or learned something if he was God the Father? Not To mention he "learned, line upon line and precept upon precept. Also, who was the God he cried out too on the cross, and obtained an equal heir. Not to mention he defines what on means in John 17...as he prayed that if God willing, let this cup p*** from me. He was praying to his God, also at the Tomb he said, "...go and tell my brothers, that I go to my Father and unto your Father, under my God and unto your God". All from the Bible...please your "A" game.

  2. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pa Pa View Post
    First Christ the "became" the author of Salvation...and learned obedience though the things which he suffered. Now had could Christ, become something or learned something if he was God the Father? Not To mention he "learned, line upon line and precept upon precept. Also, who was the God he cried out too on the cross, and obtained an equal heir. Not to mention he defines what on means in John 17...as he prayed that if God willing, let this cup p*** from me. He was praying to his God, also at the Tomb he said, "...go and tell my brothers, that I go to my Father and unto your Father, under my God and unto your God". All from the Bible...please your "A" game.
    I'm surprised you misrepresent the Trinity as you do. Do you believe that Christians teach that Jesus was "God the Father?" What kind of Baptist Church did you attend?
    Oath formerly taken by Mormons promising not to reveal secret Mormon temple rituals: "Should we do so, we agree to have our breasts cut open and our hearts and vitals torn from our bodies and given to the birds of the air and the beasts of the field."

  3. #78
    nrajeffreturns
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    Quote Originally Posted by Apologette View Post
    I'm surprised you misrepresent the Trinity as you do.
    It's Trinitarians who do that.

    Do you believe that Christians teach that Jesus was "God the Father?"
    Who do you think Isaiah was talking about when he prophesied about a Messiah who would be born of a virgin, and whose names would include "Mighty God, the everlasting father, prince of peace" ??

  4. #79
    James Banta
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    [nrajeffreturns;151798]It's Trinitarians who do that.
    Oh yes we are really bad.. We teach like Jesus did, that the Lord our God is one Lord (Mark 12:29). We teach as is preserved in Mark 1:10-11 that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are three distinct Persons. We hold that the true God who is one Lord is the Only True God that exists. That there was no other before Him nor will there be after Him. That this God who knows all things doesn't even know that any other Gods exists.. And yet the Father is called God (John 20:17), Jesus is called God (John 1:1), and the Holy Spirit is called God (Acts 5:3-4). Three separate persons all called God and yet the Bible adamant that there is One God. And that even at the insistence of Jesus Himself.. So what other doctrine is there that allows there to be one God and yet have three persons to all be God? Can you come up with anything other then the doctrine of the Trinity? Teach us..

    Who do you think Isaiah was talking about when he prophesied about a Messiah who would be born of a virgin, and whose names would include "Mighty God, the everlasting father, prince of peace" ??
    I think of Jesus coming into the world to be our Savior. He is the Mighty God, the Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.. IHS jim

  5. #80
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    Jeff posted:
    Originally Posted by ApologetteI'm surprised you misrepresent the Trinity as you do.
    It's Trinitarians who do that.

    Nope Jeff, we CHRISTIANS present God EXACTLY as we see Him in SCRIPTURE. No misrepresentations of anything at all.

    Do you believe that Christians teach that Jesus was "God the Father?"
    Who do you think Isaiah was talking about when he prophesied about a Messiah who would be born of a virgin, and whose names would include "Mighty God, the everlasting father, prince of peace" ??

    FIRST OFF, you should at least TRY to post the p***age CORRECTLY instead of WRESTING it to look like it agrees with you:
    Isa 9:6
    6 For unto us a Child is born,
    Unto us a Son is given;
    And the government will be upon His shoulder.
    And His name will be called
    Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God,
    Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

    NKJV


    Not "THE" everlasting Father, but just 'everlasting father.'

    I too am called father by my own children sometimes. I AM a father. But like Jesus I AM NOT MY OWN father. JESUS IS NOT HIS OWN Father, the FATHER HE PRAYED TO.

    You believe in a cultic jesus, my friend.



  6. #81
    RealFakeHair
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    Quote Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns View Post
    It's Trinitarians who do that.


    Who do you think Isaiah was talking about when he prophesied about a Messiah who would be born of a virgin, and whose names would include "Mighty God, the everlasting father, prince of peace" ??
    If you are not an Trinitarian, you are either a one-ness meaing God, Jesus, are one person, or either you believe there is more than one god. The Holy Bible say there is but One God, and it also says God and Jesus are Father and Son, meaning more than one person. So if there is but One God , and if Jesus and God are two persons, there is only one possibility to remain faithful to The Word of God and that is the Trinity, Three Persons, One Godhead.

  7. #82
    James Banta
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pa Pa View Post
    First Christ the "became" the author of Salvation...and learned obedience though the things which he suffered. Now had could Christ, become something or learned something if he was God the Father? Not To mention he "learned, line upon line and precept upon precept. Also, who was the God he cried out too on the cross, and obtained an equal heir. Not to mention he defines what on means in John 17...as he prayed that if God willing, let this cup p*** from me. He was praying to his God, also at the Tomb he said, "...go and tell my brothers, that I go to my Father and unto your Father, under my God and unto your God". All from the Bible...please your "A" game.
    First Jesus is God and being so IS the Author of all things, yes even SALVATION.. So during all the temptations Jesus endured as he went alone into the wilderness after His baptism he was not obedient because that that time he hadn't suffered? MAKE SENSE!!! He was always obedient. He experienced (learned) the terrible consequences of sin all creation would have gone through if He hadn't had been willing to take onto Himself the guilty of the whole world. This is how and when he learned the greatness of His Mission.. Yes he always know about it, it wasn't a new concept to Him but here he faced it in absolute reality and learned the terror we would feel if we had to live trough it.. It's one thing to know about it.. It's another thing to live it.

    Who said and where it it shown that Jesus had to learn line upon line and precept upon precept. you are inventing again.. And your inventions belittle God! On the cross Jesus cried out to the Father.. That wasn't the first time that He called out to Him.. Why are you bringing this instance up as a way to deny the trinity? Does it change the Facts that each member of the Godhead is called God and yet the Bible is clear that there is One God? Is the Bible not the word of God?

    Is not the Father God? YES. And through Him was not all tat has ever been made, made? Does that not include the flesh in which the Spirit of Jesus indwells? Yes! It is then proper to call the Father His God.. Does that change the Fact that God is still the father, Son, and Holy Spirit? Are you denying now that the Son and the Holy Spirit are not God? That only the Father is God even though the Bible confirms that Jesus and the Holy Spirit are God, and because there is only one God they are just as much God as the Father? Conform your thinking to the Bible and these things can easily be understood.. IHS jim

  8. #83
    James Banta
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    Could you please explain your question in light of what I posted?

    Genesis 26:4-5----King James Version (KJV)
    4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;

    5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.


    How is it that Abraham received of God's grace due to his obedience--and Abraham was not given commandments?



    Jim--your argument is with the scriptures:


    Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)

    9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
    If god were to tell you to do something would that not be a commandment? Would it not be a His statutes, and His laws for you? Did Abram leave his family , his home and travel out into the wilderness just because God told him to do so? Did he not stay in the hills above the cities of the plain because that is where God told Him to be? Did he not take Issac to the mountain to offer him as a sacrifice because God commanded him to do so? But also Abram lied to Pharaoh about who Sarai was? Why did he mistrust God to provide him a son and take Hagar as his wife to force God's promises to be fulfilled? Abram showed both great faithfulness and great mistrust.

    The p***age never says that Abram received of God's grace only that because of his obedience that in his seed would all the world be blessed.. And Jesus was of the seed of Abram.. That was due to all Abram did that was in compliance to God's will.. But the reason Abram was righteous was through believing God not through works..

    You have to understand you are being a bit hypercritical here. You have not confirmed to me that you are obeying Jesus is all things. You will never come to a place where you do so, at least not in this world. Therefore when your life is over here you will be judged and DISOBEDIENT. Therefore you will not receive His eternal salvation. No one who isn't perfect as the father in heaven is perfect will UNLESS They allow Jesus to become sin in their place and take His righteousness as their own.

    So you to say that I am outside the scriptures in how I see the scriptures. That makes no sense.. How can God tell us that only those who personally obey Him can be saved when He knew that everyone of us would be disobedient? I am outside mormon teaching and I see that as a good thing.. I teach that God made Jesus, He who knew no sin to be sin, so that we can become the righteousness of God in Him.. SO WE COULD BE MADE THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF GOD. If we have believed in Jesus and therefore been given everlasting life, we have been given the righteousness of God in Him.. Having that righteousness we have completely conformed to Him commandments, we have obeyed Him through our faith in Jesus. We have kept all commandments to obey Him because He did it for us and we have been given His righteousness.. Since I am now in Him I have obeyed him 100%.. I meet the qualification for obedience you keep throwing up into our faces.. All that is done now we are free to love Him and worship Him for this great gift.. Still the nagging question is how are you obedient in disobedience, since you keep sinning and will for the rest of your life. IHS jim

  9. #84
    James Banta
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    Are you saying that no Christian has never done any of those things--or that one is not a Christian if they do those things?
    Is he saying that our flesh isn't weak anymore and we never sin? No, he isn't saying that he is saying just what Paul said about sin in his life..

    Romans 7:17-20
    Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
    For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
    For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
    Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.


    There you go an explanation of sin after a person is in Christ by God the Holy Spirit through the Apostle Paul.. You can believe Him or reject Him.. If you reject Him don't tell me that you believe the Bible.. IHS jim

  10. #85
    nrajeffreturns
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    Quote Originally Posted by James Banta View Post
    Oh yes we are really bad.. We teach like Jesus did...
    I don't think Jesus taught that He and His Father are the same being.

    Three separate persons all called God and yet the Bible adamant that there is One God.
    One of those separate persons said that another of the persons is the only true God. Do you believe what that person said? Or not?

    So what other doctrine is there that allows there to be one God and yet have three persons to all be God?
    Arianism and Modalism both allow for 3 personae but still one God. There is also LDSism, which keeps the correct parts of Arianism, Modalism, and Trinitarianism, but doesn't have the incorrect parts of any of those.

    Can you come up with anything other then the doctrine of the Trinity? Teach us..
    LDS theology does a better *** of reconciling the apparent contradictions than any of the competing theologies does.

    I think of Jesus coming into the world to be our Savior. He is the Mighty God, the Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.. IHS jim
    Apologette asked me: "Do you believe that Christians teach that Jesus was "God the Father?"


    It looks like your answer to her question is "Yes."

  11. #86
    James Banta
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    [nrajeffreturns;151822]I don't think Jesus taught that He and His Father are the same being.
    \

    Jesus taught that the Lord our God in one Lord (Mark 12:29)..

    One of those separate persons said that another of the persons is the only true God. Do you believe what that person said? Or not?
    I have said that myself about God.. I have said that the Father is God. That He is all the God there is or ever can be.. In that same response I have have said that The Son is God. That He is all the God there is or ever can be.is God. That He is all the God there is or ever can be. And that the Holy Spirit is God. That He is all the God there is or ever can be. Yes I have shown that Jesus has said the there is One GOD.. I have elsewhere showed that Jesus claimed to be the God that spoke to Moses out of the burning bush as He said "Before Abraham was I AM".. The same name God gave to Moses.. Maybe you don't understand that but but the people around about did and nor believing Jesus was God they picked up stones to stone Him (John 8:59).. Yes Jesus was claiming to be God!

    Arianism and Modalism both allow for 3 personae but still one God. There is also LDSism, which keeps the correct parts of Arianism, Modalism, and Trinitarianism, but doesn't have the incorrect parts of any of those.
    Arianism like mormonism teaches that Jesus is a creation of God.. It has the same problem as does mormonism. The Bible says that no God was formed before God and none will be formed after. By that authority neither Arianism nor mormonism believe Jesus can be a true God.. He must be at most a demigod.. Modalism teaches that God is one person who has revealed himself in three forms or modes. I have been branded as being a modalist several times here and on other forums.. But I am a Trinitarian. A Trinitarian believes that God is one being eternally existing in three persons. I have explained this to you in a way that God explained it to me.. Each Time I have it has not just been disagreed with but ridiculed.. Never has it been addressed as false, it was just ridiculed as ridiculous.. The Holy Spirit used it to teach me.. I will not allow you to rub a word given to me from God into the dirt.. Modalism come the closest to having an explanation of how God could be the Father Son and the Holy Spirit and still allow each to be God.. It does make Jesus crazy talking to Himself on prayer, since Jesus was the only mode of God that existed during His mortal ministry.. In this age Jesus no longer exists the mode of God is now the Holy Spirit.. So does Modalism allow that there one God and yet have three person to all be God? No, It allows for God to be one person at a time.. You still haven't shown any doctrine that allows for God to be one Lord, and yet the Father to be God, the Son to be God, and the Holy Spirit to be God all at the same time..

    LDS theology does a better *** of reconciling the apparent contradictions than any of the competing theologies does.
    I have heard two competing doctrines taught in mormonism..
    1. That only the Father is God and that the Son, and the Holy Spirit are like His counselors.. They are not God but support and sustain Him in His divinity..
    And 2. As taught by Joseph Smith, I have always declared God to be a distinct personage, Jesus Christ a separate and distinct personage from God the Father, and that the Holy Ghost was a distinct personage and a Spirit: and these three cons***ute three distinct personages and three Gods. If this is in accordance with the New Testament, lo and behold! we have three Gods anyhow, and they are plural: and who can contradict it!

    The first denies the divinity of Jesus completely.. The second calls Jesus a liar as he quoted the the doctrine of God as it was given to Moses "The Lord our God is One Lord".. So which are you. One that denies Jesus is God, or one that teaches Jesus to be a liar?

    Apologette asked me: "Do you believe that Christians teach that Jesus was "God the Father?"


    It looks like your answer to her question is "Yes."[/QUOTE]

    Apologette is a Christian woman.. She believes the Bible.. The Bible clearly says that "For unto us a Child is born, unto us a Son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace." because it is taught that Jesus is called The mighty God, The everlasting Father, the answer to that question is an undeniable YES.. IHS jim

  12. #87
    dberrie2000
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    Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post----Could you please explain your question in light of what I posted?

    Genesis 26:4-5----King James Version (KJV)
    4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
    5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

    How is it that Abraham received of God's grace due to his obedience--and Abraham was not given commandments?

    Jim--your argument is with the scriptures:

    Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)

    9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
    Quote Originally Posted by James Banta View Post
    If god were to tell you to do something would that not be a commandment? Would it not be a His statutes, and His laws for you? Did Abram leave his family , his home and travel out into the wilderness just because God told him to do so? Did he not stay in the hills above the cities of the plain because that is where God told Him to be? Did he not take Issac to the mountain to offer him as a sacrifice because God commanded him to do so? But also Abram lied to Pharaoh about who Sarai was? Why did he mistrust God to provide him a son and take Hagar as his wife to force God's promises to be fulfilled? Abram showed both great faithfulness and great mistrust.

    The p***age never says that Abram received of God's grace only that because of his obedience that in his seed would all the world be blessed..
    Could you explain how all this rationalization somehow cancels, rubs out, annuls, or deletes the fact the scriptures have God giving His salvational grace unto Abraham because of his obedience? Jim--if that is true--then faith alone theology is false--period.

    It's a broken egg for the faith alone--and all the king's men--and all their horses can't put it back together again.

    And Jesus was of the seed of Abram.. That was due to all Abram did that was in compliance to God's will..
    Are you sure you don't want to bring Abraham's lie up again?

    Jim---- But also Abram lied to Pharaoh about who Sarai was? Why did he mistrust God to provide him a son and take Hagar as his wife to force God's promises to be fulfilled? Abram showed both great faithfulness and great mistrust.
    But the reason Abram was righteous was through believing God not through works..
    Not through works--as in the Mosaic Law--because Abraham lived under the gospel of Christ. But if the scriptures are true--then Abraham received of the promisesd because of His obedience to Christ:

    Genesis 26:4-5----King James Version (KJV)
    4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
    5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.


    What is your evidence that Abraham's obedience was not an integral component to his faith?


    James 2:21-24----King James Version (KJV)

    21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

    22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

    23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

    24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

  13. #88
    RealFakeHair
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    Could you explain how all this rationalization somehow cancels, rubs out, annuls, or deletes the fact the scriptures have God giving His salvational grace unto Abraham because of his obedience? Jim--if that is true--then faith alone theology is false--period.

    It's a broken egg for the faith alone--and all the king's men--and all their horses can't put it back together again.



    Are you sure you don't want to bring Abraham's lie up again?





    Not through works--as in the Mosaic Law--because Abraham lived under the gospel of Christ. But if the scriptures are true--then Abraham received of the promisesd because of His obedience to Christ:

    Genesis 26:4-5----King James Version (KJV)
    4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
    5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.


    What is your evidence that Abraham's obedience was not an integral component to his faith?


    James 2:21-24----King James Version (KJV)

    21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

    22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

    23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

    24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
    Okay, one hit wonder. It might help your case if you could show us how much (work) it takes to balance it with faith?
    Is it 1% faith and 99% works, or maybe you don't know?

  14. #89
    James Banta
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    Quote Originally Posted by RealFakeHair View Post
    Okay, one hit wonder. It might help your case if you could show us how much (work) it takes to balance it with faith?
    Is it 1% faith and 99% works, or maybe you don't know?
    I guess it takes a lot more works than faith.. I see this in the scripture:

    Matthew 7:22-23
    Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works.
    And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.


    So how much work does it take to balance with Faith.. All the works, the full population that the earth has ever held, could have done if all they had done one good work after the next could never measure up to a man that says "I believe help me in my unbelief" (Mark 9:24).. IHS jim
    Last edited by James Banta; 01-09-2014 at 12:00 PM.

  15. #90
    James Banta
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    But under the NT--all were commanded to repent and be baptized for the remission of sins--and that was made possible through the Atonement of Jesus Christ--and His blood sacrifice:


    Ephesians 1:7---King James Version (KJV)

    7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

    Hair--the forgiveness of sins comes through the Blood of Christ--period. There was nothing else ever sufficient whereby sins could be forgiven, nor will be--past, present, or future of that great Atonement of Jesus Christ.
    DB you are starting to understand that water isn't the means by which forgiveness of Sin is made available to mankind.. Baptism can mean many things.. It could even be infant baptism.. I never have seen an age limit of it.. Baptism may even include being emerged in the Faith that Jesus is God and our Savior.. never is it said in the scripture that we must be baptized by those in authority to baptize.. The LDS church has taken (cherry picked) a few p***ages and added their doctrine to them and then put them out to the world as the truth according to the Bible. But as you have come to see when Bible believers question your doctrine of baptism you have to back peddle and come to the Biblical teaching that is the Blood of Jesus shed on the cross that has that saving power.. IHS jim

  16. #91
    dberrie2000
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    Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---But under the NT--all were commanded to repent and be baptized for the remission of sins--and that was made possible through the Atonement of Jesus Christ--and His blood sacrifice:


    Ephesians 1:7---King James Version (KJV)

    7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

    Hair--the forgiveness of sins comes through the Blood of Christ--period. There was nothing else ever sufficient whereby sins could be forgiven, nor will be--past, present, or future of that great Atonement of Jesus Christ.
    Quote Originally Posted by James Banta View Post
    DB you are starting to understand that water isn't the means by which forgiveness of Sin is made available to mankind..
    Yes it is--that was the gospel from the beginning:


    Mark 1:1-4----King James Version (KJV)


    1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;

    2 As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.

    3 The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.

    4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.


    That is what was taught throughout the NT--repentance and water baptism for the remission of sins. That forgiveness comes through the Blood Atonement of Jesus Christ--that is what makes it possible.

  17. #92
    James Banta
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    Yes it is--that was the gospel from the beginning:


    Mark 1:1-4----King James Version (KJV)


    1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;

    2 As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.

    3 The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.

    4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.


    That is what was taught throughout the NT--repentance and water baptism for the remission of sins. That forgiveness comes through the Blood Atonement of Jesus Christ--that is what makes it possible.

    I am sorry you don't know what the Bible teaches even about John's baptism.. lets explore it together shall we?

    In acts we find Paul coming on a group of men that had not received the gift of the Holy Spirit and he asked them to what baptize they had been baptized.. They said to John's baptism.. Lets see from the Bible what Paul said and what he did for these men..

    Acts 19:1-6
    And it came to p***, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having p***ed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
    He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
    Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
    When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
    And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.And it came to p***, that, while Apollos


    So as Mark began to relate the Life and Works of Jesus, everything He did to show us who He is, and all He did to bring us salvation, he calls it the Gospel and so it is.. But the works of John are not those works.. Only that which Jesus did is the Good News of God's work to bring us to Himself.. Since the baptism of John is identified by the Apostle Paul and insufficient it is NOT part of the Gospel.. What is identified as the access means for salvation BY JESUS is holding faith in Him.. He said That God loved the world so much that He sent His only begotten Son and that whoever believes in His would never die but have everlasting Life.. So John is preaching his baptism of repentance and not the baptism of Life.. You are stopping way to early in identifying the full Gospel.. You should read more of God's word and find out that we need to be born of the Spirit of God to become His children. That we are by nature children of wrath..

    Please explain how we can receive remission of sins through an incomplete baptism.. If remission of sin by water baptism was taught all though the Bible why do you rely on two verses? On the contrary it is salvation by Grace through faith that is taught throughout the Bible From Genesis 15:6, John 3:16, Eph 2:8-9, ***us 3:5, Rev 3:20 to name a few right off the top of my head.. Remember it is also taught that without faith it is impossible to please God, and He rewards those that seek Him (Hebrews 11:6).. So again your p***age here must mean that we are baptized because we have been cleansed not because we are forgiven by baptism.. IHS jim

  18. #93
    dberrie2000
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    Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---Yes it is--that was the gospel from the beginning:
    Mark 1:1-4----King James Version (KJV)


    1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;

    2 As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.

    3 The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.

    4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.


    That is what was taught throughout the NT--repentance and water baptism for the remission of sins. That forgiveness comes through the Blood Atonement of Jesus Christ--that is what makes it possible.
    Quote Originally Posted by James Banta View Post
    I am sorry you don't know what the Bible teaches even about John's baptism.. lets explore it together shall we?

    In acts we find Paul coming on a group of men that had not received the gift of the Holy Spirit and he asked them to what baptize they had been baptized.. They said to John's baptism.. Lets see from the Bible what Paul said and what he did for these men..

    Acts 19:1-6
    And it came to p***, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having p***ed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
    He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
    Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
    When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
    And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.And it came to p***, that, while Apollos


    So as Mark began to relate the Life and Works of Jesus, everything He did to show us who He is, and all He did to bring us salvation, he calls it the Gospel and so it is.. But the works of John are not those works.. Only that which Jesus did is the Good News of God's work to bring us to Himself.. Since the baptism of John is identified by the Apostle Paul and insufficient it is NOT part of the Gospel.. What is identified as the access means for salvation BY JESUS is holding faith in Him.. He said That God loved the world so much that He sent His only begotten Son and that whoever believes in His would never die but have everlasting Life.. So John is preaching his baptism of repentance and not the baptism of Life.. You are stopping way to early in identifying the full Gospel.. You should read more of God's word and find out that we need to be born of the Spirit of God to become His children. That we are by nature children of wrath..

    Please explain how we can receive remission of sins through an incomplete baptism.. If remission of sin by water baptism was taught all though the Bible why do you rely on two verses? On the contrary it is salvation by Grace through faith that is taught throughout the Bible From Genesis 15:6, John 3:16, Eph 2:8-9, ***us 3:5, Rev 3:20 to name a few right off the top of my head.. Remember it is also taught that without faith it is impossible to please God, and He rewards those that seek Him (Hebrews 11:6).. So again your p***age here must mean that we are baptized because we have been cleansed not because we are forgiven by baptism.. IHS jim
    James--while no one will argue that repentance and water baptism is all of the gospel of Christ--it was a very important part of the gospel of Christ--and was the very beginning of the gospel, as St Mark testifies to.

    I believe your post might hold some truths--but to rationalize repentance and water baptism as something we do because we have already been forgiven is something the scriptures testifies against. Again--what about the scriptures do you not believe?


    Acts 22:16---King James Version (KJV)

    16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

    What is it about repentance and water baptism you don't feel is faith in Christ? Walking in the light? Enduring to the end? Serving?

    Matthew 10:22---King James Version (KJV)

    22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.


    While I would agree that works will not save one--neither will faith without works lead to salvation. There is a combination of a change of heart and obedience required by God. That amounts to faith in Christ. Salvation by grace without obedience to Jesus Christ is a dead faith. To love God is to obey and serve:

    John 14:15---King James Version (KJV)
    15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

  19. #94
    nrajeffreturns
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    Perhaps the problem people like Jim have with the Bible verses that seem to contradict each other is merely a matter of perspective, like in the story where each blind man thought that the part of the elephant he could feel was the whole, entire elephant.

    In one place in the Bible, it mentions baptism for the remission of sins. In another, it states that Jesus' blood does it. In another, it says that obedience to God's will does it.

    Latching on to only one piece of the puzzle leaves you with just that one piece.

    It's like if your mom said "You need to get up tomorrow morning and ride the bus to school if you want to get an A in Chemistry" and you concluded that the teacher hands out A's for getting up and riding a bus, when actually those actions only help get you to where you can do the schoolwork and take the tests that can result in getting the A.

    Having faith, repenting of sins, getting baptized, showing charity, etc., each is a part of what you need to do for eternal life. But none of them is the source of it. Grace, Jesus and His atonement are the source.

  20. #95
    James Banta
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    [dberrie2000;151912]James--while no one will argue that repentance and water baptism is all of the gospel of Christ--it was a very important part of the gospel of Christ--and was the very beginning of the gospel, as St Mark testifies to.
    I am not arguing against repentance, I am not even questioning baptism, What I am pointing out here is that John's baptism has no place in the Gospel of Jesus as pointed out through Paul and the gift of the Holy Spirit.. John never baptized anyone in the name of God.. All he did was use water to symbolize a commitment of those that submitted to his baptism that they would live for God and not for the world.. I love Acts 22:16 it is one verse that makes it very clear that our sins are washed away as we call on the name of the Lord.. That p***age is all about being cleaned by God's grace through faith.. Matthew said that those of us that endure to the end, but endure in what? Since we all continue to sin even knowing it is wrong as Paul said he did (Romans 7:14-25), what does it mean to endure to the end? It must mean that we endure to the end in FAITH.. We can hold faith all our days, as you can see we can't live in total obedience, because sin is still in us, in our flesh..

    James has spelled out the works of faith we must not neglect.. There is nothing in His admonishments that leads us to repentance, baptism, or even faith in Jesus.. There is an admonishment to hold that there is one God.. With mormonism teaching three separate Gods can you really tell me that the LDS church teaching are the doctrines of faith and works the LDS church is pointing to? Look at what most of James 2 is about.. Its about how wrong it is to show preference to the rich over the poor.. It's about clothing the naked and feeding the hungry. There is no teaching here to be baptized, to do missionary work, even to pray.. James was talking to believers here not to the world.. People that have already been though conversion.. He tells them to get off their backsides and do those things that God (Jesus) is calling them to do in His name..

    I believe your post might hold some truths--but to rationalize repentance and water baptism as something we do because we have already been forgiven is something the scriptures testifies against. Again--what about the scriptures do you not believe?
    I am not teaching that repentance is not required.. I am not teaching that baptism is not a commandment.. I have done both and in the case of repentance I have done that more than most people and I continue to walk in repentance daily.. I have been baptized in the name of God (Father Son, and Holy Spirit). I do not however see anything in baptism that cleanses me from sin. I call on His name, I testify that He is my Father and my God.. I am going to be 62 years old this spring. I know that most of my life is over.. This brings me to cling to His promises.. I don't see the promises for live in mormonism. I will live only if I obey.. The trouble is I am honest enough to know that I DON'T OBEY.. I am discerning enough to see that God is right and there is none righteous, not one. There is none that understands, there is none that seeks for God.Everyone has become unprofitable; there is no one that does good.. Me, you, our leaders.. No one is good.. Without Jesus we all deserve hell. With Jesus no one can deny us the right to boldly approach the throne of God.. and how do we obtain that position? ONLY THOUGH HIS GRACE! We are all disobedient. We can't think that the few times in our lives that we obey God are enough to overcome the thousands of times we throw obedience aside and serve that sin that lives within our flesh just as it did within Paul's flesh. We sin, if we are honest we will recognize that and agree with God that all have sinned, or better I SIN LORD, I AM DISOBEDIENT, BUT I DO LOVE YOU AND WANT TO FOLLOW YOU.. Lord I believe you, help me in my unbelief.. What GRACE HE HAS.. He extends His grace even to such a man as me and makes me His child (John 1:12-13)..

    Acts 22:16---King James Version (KJV)

    16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.
    I care about you.. Like Paul who had a deep yearning to see his people, Israel, come to a saving knowledge of the work Jesus did for them unto salvation, the LDS are my people.. He grow up among Israel, I grew up among my people the LDS.. His hearts desire for His people is the same as mine is for you.. That you might be saved.. So I show you why mormonism is unbiblical.. The truth is IT DOESN'T matter what religion you are.. As long as God allows you to stay in the LDS church, STAY.. What matters is who is God and what did He do. Nothing else is important.. I call on you to believe Him. He promised that His word would never p*** away, we can trust it.. He promised to never leave us, so we can know He is always walking with us.. He promised that His Church would never die, we can know that His Church never sunk totally into apostasy.. Stay LDS if that is where you feel God is calling you.. Just know that you don't need a prophet as in the past because in these last days God speaks to us, all of us, through His Son..

    What is it about repentance and water baptism you don't feel is faith in Christ? Walking in the light? Enduring to the end? Serving?
    I see that agreeing with God about who we are what we have done, WHAT WE ARE DOING, is important. It is important to take these CRIMES against Him to his feet and confess them agreeing with Him of our place before Him. Agree that we have lusted, we have been angry, we have coveted, that our hearts are deceitful above all things and desperately wicked to the point that only He can know the depth of our wickedness. Even our own minds can't understand the depths of our sin.. In no way do I minimize the great need for us to repent and repent often, I have a great teacher that explained why he spent so much time going over repentance and the sin that is part of all of us.. He said "I know you all have heard these things again and again but we are earthen vessels and because of that WE LEAK; we must be refilled again and again". I have leaked so bad that I went dry and did nothing but sin. I have taken my sin back to my Lord and he has taken that sin away, not that there wasn't creation..

    Matthew 10:22---King James Version (KJV)

    22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.


    While I would agree that works will not save one--neither will faith without works lead to salvation. There is a combination of a change of heart and obedience required by God. That amounts to faith in Christ. Salvation by grace without obedience to Jesus Christ is a dead faith. To love God is to obey and serve:

    John 14:15---King James Version (KJV)
    15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
    The commandments are something that my flesh will NOT Keep.. I agree that it (my flesh) has no love for God in it.. It is totally rebellious. But there is a new creation within me not that which is of flesh but is spiritual.. That creation is sinless and loves God completely.. While my flesh is dying and will become ashes and dust, that spirit that is born of God will continue and be clothed in incorruption. a Body like that Jesus showed to His disciples in the upper room.. So the commandments I must keep here are to believe Him, and to love my fellows.. These things I obey.. IHS jim

  21. #96
    James Banta
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    [nrajeffreturns;151914]Perhaps the problem people like Jim have with the Bible verses that seem to contradict each other is merely a matter of perspective, like in the story where each blind man thought that the part of the elephant he could feel was the whole, entire elephant.
    Sorry jeff that story is not found in the Bible.. And I have told you that in the righteousness of Jesus a righteousness that is of faith (Hebrews 11:7) I and all such as believe Him are given the His righteousness. Because God made Him to be sin, He who knew no sin, that we can be made the righteousness of God in Him.. There is no other way we could gain that righteousness but having that righteousness fulfills ALL the p***ages that require obedience.. That my friend is the WHOLE ELEPHANT.

    In one place in the Bible, it mentions baptism for the remission of sins. In another, it states that Jesus' blood does it. In another, it says that obedience to God's will does it.

    Latching on to only one piece of the puzzle leaves you with just that one piece.
    But jeff in receiving the righteousness of Jesus are not all those requirements met? is not Jesus perfect as the Father in heaven is perfect? And having His righteousness the Christian even meets that commandment.. So have we not also had our sin remitted whether it be through because our sin have been forgiven or to get them remitted, or if Blood is required to do that ***, or if it is only accomplished in obedience? Once we are the righteousness of God how can we not be worthy no matter how you want to believe remission of sins comes to us. seems by either teaching baptism or obedience you are missing the blood of Jesus which is by God's grace through faith..

    It's like if your mom said "You need to get up tomorrow morning and ride the bus to school if you want to get an A in Chemistry" and you concluded that the teacher hands out A's for getting up and riding a bus, when actually those actions only help get you to where you can do the schoolwork and take the tests that can result in getting the A.
    But if someone offered you the grade by grace without the work would you not get the A? If it was offered by the highest authority in the school system would it not be your grade? That is what Jesus did for us.. He earned the A and gave it to us.. In doing that He created in us a desire to do His work of loving others..

    Having faith, repenting of sins, getting baptized, showing charity, etc., each is a part of what you need to do for eternal life. But none of them is the source of it. Grace, Jesus and His atonement are the source
    .

    And each and every point of those requirements are part of the gift of salvation he bought for us in His blood, just as you have said.. Yes faith works.. But the works of that faith are merely the evidence of it's existence..

    Tell me you believe that faith without works is dead right? Why is it you scoff at other verses in James 2? Why do you deny that God is one (James 2:19), why do you deny that keeping the whole law only to fail in one point makes one guilty of all (James 2:10)? I believe that true faith works. James completely agrees on this point with Paul as he taught that we are created in Jesus to do good works (Eph 2:10) even though Paul makes it clear that it is God's grace unlocked by Faith in Jesus that saves and NOT THE WORKS..

    Here the christian is believing the whole of God's work and the LDS wants to reject the grace of God and earn their salvation by their own efforts. We explain that works reveal true faith but is is notworks that bring us salvation but God's grace which is made available through faith and NOT OF WORKS.. They only way to hold that works have anything to do with salvation is to deny most of the New Testament even the words of Jesus as He taught that "God so loved the world that He gave His only Son that whosoever believes in Him will not perish but have everlasting life".. IHS jim

  22. #97
    dberrie2000
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    Quote Originally Posted by James Banta View Post
    The commandments are something that my flesh will NOT Keep.. I agree that it (my flesh) has no love for God in it.. It is totally rebellious.
    How does that fit with Paul's testimony?


    Galatians 5:19-21---King James Version (KJV)[/B]

    19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

    20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

    21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

  23. #98
    James Banta
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    How does that fit with Paul's testimony?


    Galatians 5:19-21---King James Version (KJV)[/B]

    19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

    20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

    21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time pas? t, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
    Glad you asked I don't mind teaching you at all.. What does the p***age tell us? Doesn't it says that such sins are the works of the flesh? Yes it does, see it? Isn't that what I said as I quoted Paul in Romans 7:18 that "For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing".. Yes indeed.. I am again consistent in my teaching of the Bible.. No flesh will inherit the kingdom of God, for the heart of men is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked. I don't separate the Christian in their flesh from that condemnation. IHS jim

  24. #99
    dberrie2000
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    Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---How does that fit with Paul's testimony?


    Galatians 5:19-21---King James Version (KJV)[/B]

    19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

    20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

    21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time pas? t, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
    Quote Originally Posted by James Banta View Post
    Glad you asked I don't mind teaching you at all.. What does the p***age tell us? Doesn't it says that such sins are the works of the flesh? Yes it does, see it? Isn't that what I said as I quoted Paul in Romans 7:18 that "For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing".. Yes indeed.. I am again consistent in my teaching of the Bible.. No flesh will inherit the kingdom of God,
    Are you saying Christ did not go into the Kingdom of God?


    Luke 24:39---King James Version (KJV)

    39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.


    Paul did not make the point flesh does not inherit the kingdom of God--but rather--those in the flesh who commit such things as listed--do not inherit the kingdom of God.(flesh and blood, maybe. But not flesh)

  25. #100
    nrajeffreturns
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    Quote Originally Posted by James Banta View Post
    Tell me you believe that faith without works is dead right? Why is it you scoff at other verses in James 2? Why do you deny that God is one (James 2:19)
    I don't deny it. I just disagree with your incorrect interpretation of what it was intended to mean.

    , why do you deny that keeping the whole law only to fail in one point makes one guilty of all (James 2:10)?
    I don't deny it. I just understand that it was a reference to the legalistic rules of the Torah. Since you don't understand that, you reach a different, incorrect conclusion regarding what it's supposed to mean.

    Here the christian is believing the whole of God's work and the LDS wants to reject the grace of God and earn their salvation by their own efforts.
    That is a false statement.

    We explain that works reveal true faith but is is notworks that bring us salvation but God's grace which is made available through faith and NOT OF WORKS..
    You studiously avoid the question of whether OBEDIENCE is a condition for eternal life. Why do you deny the Biblical truth that if you want eternal life, you MUST obey God's commandments? Obedience is one of the REQUIREMENTS.

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