The confusing theology of the faith alone

[Apologette]

Originally Posted by Pa Pa

First Christ the "became" the author of Salvation...and learned obedience though the things which he suffered. Now had could Christ, become something or learned something if he was God the Father? Not To mention he "learned, line upon line and precept upon precept. Also, who was the God he cried out too on the cross, and obtained an equal heir. Not to mention he defines what on means in John 17...as he prayed that if God willing, let this cup p*** from me. He was praying to his God, also at the Tomb he said, "...go and tell my brothers, that I go to my Father and unto your Father, under my God and unto your God". All from the Bible...please your "A" game.

I'm surprised you misrepresent the Trinity as you do. Do you believe that Christians teach that Jesus was "God the Father?" What kind of Baptist Church did you attend?

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by Apologette

I'm surprised you misrepresent the Trinity as you do.

It's Trinitarians who do that.

Do you believe that Christians teach that Jesus was "God the Father?"

Who do you think Isaiah was talking about when he prophesied about a Messiah who would be born of a virgin, and whose names would include "Mighty God, the everlasting father, prince of peace" ??

[James Banta]

[nrajeffreturns;151798]It's Trinitarians who do that.

Oh yes we are really bad.. We teach like Jesus did, that the Lord our God is one Lord (Mark 12:29). We teach as is preserved in Mark 1:10-11 that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are three distinct Persons. We hold that the true God who is one Lord is the Only True God that exists. That there was no other before Him nor will there be after Him. That this God who knows all things doesn't even know that any other Gods exists.. And yet the Father is called God (John 20:17), Jesus is called God (John 1:1), and the Holy Spirit is called God (Acts 5:3-4). Three separate persons all called God and yet the Bible adamant that there is One God. And that even at the insistence of Jesus Himself.. So what other doctrine is there that allows there to be one God and yet have three persons to all be God? Can you come up with anything other then the doctrine of the Trinity? Teach us..

Who do you think Isaiah was talking about when he prophesied about a Messiah who would be born of a virgin, and whose names would include "Mighty God, the everlasting father, prince of peace" ??

I think of Jesus coming into the world to be our Savior. He is the Mighty God, the Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.. IHS jim

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by James Banta

Oh yes we are really bad.. We teach like Jesus did...

I don't think Jesus taught that He and His Father are the same being.

Three separate persons all called God and yet the Bible adamant that there is One God.

One of those separate persons said that another of the persons is the only true God. Do you believe what that person said? Or not?

So what other doctrine is there that allows there to be one God and yet have three persons to all be God?

Arianism and Modalism both allow for 3 personae but still one God. There is also LDSism, which keeps the correct parts of Arianism, Modalism, and Trinitarianism, but doesn't have the incorrect parts of any of those.

Can you come up with anything other then the doctrine of the Trinity? Teach us..

LDS theology does a better *** of reconciling the apparent contradictions than any of the competing theologies does.

I think of Jesus coming into the world to be our Savior. He is the Mighty God, the Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.. IHS jim

Apologette asked me: "Do you believe that Christians teach that Jesus was "God the Father?"


It looks like your answer to her question is "Yes."

[James Banta]

[nrajeffreturns;151822]I don't think Jesus taught that He and His Father are the same being.

\

Jesus taught that the Lord our God in one Lord (Mark 12:29)..

One of those separate persons said that another of the persons is the only true God. Do you believe what that person said? Or not?

I have said that myself about God.. I have said that the Father is God. That He is all the God there is or ever can be.. In that same response I have have said that The Son is God. That He is all the God there is or ever can be.is God. That He is all the God there is or ever can be. And that the Holy Spirit is God. That He is all the God there is or ever can be. Yes I have shown that Jesus has said the there is One GOD.. I have elsewhere showed that Jesus claimed to be the God that spoke to Moses out of the burning bush as He said "Before Abraham was I AM".. The same name God gave to Moses.. Maybe you don't understand that but but the people around about did and nor believing Jesus was God they picked up stones to stone Him (John 8:59).. Yes Jesus was claiming to be God!

Arianism and Modalism both allow for 3 personae but still one God. There is also LDSism, which keeps the correct parts of Arianism, Modalism, and Trinitarianism, but doesn't have the incorrect parts of any of those.

Arianism like mormonism teaches that Jesus is a creation of God.. It has the same problem as does mormonism. The Bible says that no God was formed before God and none will be formed after. By that authority neither Arianism nor mormonism believe Jesus can be a true God.. He must be at most a demigod.. Modalism teaches that God is one person who has revealed himself in three forms or modes. I have been branded as being a modalist several times here and on other forums.. But I am a Trinitarian. A Trinitarian believes that God is one being eternally existing in three persons. I have explained this to you in a way that God explained it to me.. Each Time I have it has not just been disagreed with but ridiculed.. Never has it been addressed as false, it was just ridiculed as ridiculous.. The Holy Spirit used it to teach me.. I will not allow you to rub a word given to me from God into the dirt.. Modalism come the closest to having an explanation of how God could be the Father Son and the Holy Spirit and still allow each to be God.. It does make Jesus crazy talking to Himself on prayer, since Jesus was the only mode of God that existed during His mortal ministry.. In this age Jesus no longer exists the mode of God is now the Holy Spirit.. So does Modalism allow that there one God and yet have three person to all be God? No, It allows for God to be one person at a time.. You still haven't shown any doctrine that allows for God to be one Lord, and yet the Father to be God, the Son to be God, and the Holy Spirit to be God all at the same time..

LDS theology does a better *** of reconciling the apparent contradictions than any of the competing theologies does.

I have heard two competing doctrines taught in mormonism..
1. That only the Father is God and that the Son, and the Holy Spirit are like His counselors.. They are not God but support and sustain Him in His divinity..
And 2. As taught by Joseph Smith, I have always declared God to be a distinct personage, Jesus Christ a separate and distinct personage from God the Father, and that the Holy Ghost was a distinct personage and a Spirit: and these three cons***ute three distinct personages and three Gods. If this is in accordance with the New Testament, lo and behold! we have three Gods anyhow, and they are plural: and who can contradict it!

The first denies the divinity of Jesus completely.. The second calls Jesus a liar as he quoted the the doctrine of God as it was given to Moses "The Lord our God is One Lord".. So which are you. One that denies Jesus is God, or one that teaches Jesus to be a liar?

Apologette asked me: "Do you believe that Christians teach that Jesus was "God the Father?"

It looks like your answer to her question is "Yes."[/QUOTE]

Apologette is a Christian woman.. She believes the Bible.. The Bible clearly says that "For unto us a Child is born, unto us a Son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace." because it is taught that Jesus is called The mighty God, The everlasting Father, the answer to that question is an undeniable YES.. IHS jim

[Christian]

Jeff posted:

Originally Posted by ApologetteI'm surprised you misrepresent the Trinity as you do.

It's Trinitarians who do that.

Nope Jeff, we CHRISTIANS present God EXACTLY as we see Him in SCRIPTURE. No misrepresentations of anything at all.

Do you believe that Christians teach that Jesus was "God the Father?"

Who do you think Isaiah was talking about when he prophesied about a Messiah who would be born of a virgin, and whose names would include "Mighty God, the everlasting father, prince of peace" ??

FIRST OFF, you should at least TRY to post the p***age CORRECTLY instead of WRESTING it to look like it agrees with you:
Isa 9:6
6 For unto us a Child is born,
Unto us a Son is given;
And the government will be upon His shoulder.
And His name will be called
Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
NKJV


Not "THE" everlasting Father, but just 'everlasting father.'

I too am called father by my own children sometimes. I AM a father. But like Jesus I AM NOT MY OWN father. JESUS IS NOT HIS OWN Father, the FATHER HE PRAYED TO.

You believe in a cultic jesus, my friend.

[RealFakeHair]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

It's Trinitarians who do that.


Who do you think Isaiah was talking about when he prophesied about a Messiah who would be born of a virgin, and whose names would include "Mighty God, the everlasting father, prince of peace" ??

If you are not an Trinitarian, you are either a one-ness meaing God, Jesus, are one person, or either you believe there is more than one god. The Holy Bible say there is but One God, and it also says God and Jesus are Father and Son, meaning more than one person. So if there is but One God , and if Jesus and God are two persons, there is only one possibility to remain faithful to The Word of God and that is the Trinity, Three Persons, One Godhead.

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Pa Pa

First Christ the "became" the author of Salvation...and learned obedience though the things which he suffered. Now had could Christ, become something or learned something if he was God the Father? Not To mention he "learned, line upon line and precept upon precept. Also, who was the God he cried out too on the cross, and obtained an equal heir. Not to mention he defines what on means in John 17...as he prayed that if God willing, let this cup p*** from me. He was praying to his God, also at the Tomb he said, "...go and tell my brothers, that I go to my Father and unto your Father, under my God and unto your God". All from the Bible...please your "A" game.

First Jesus is God and being so IS the Author of all things, yes even SALVATION.. So during all the temptations Jesus endured as he went alone into the wilderness after His baptism he was not obedient because that that time he hadn't suffered? MAKE SENSE!!! He was always obedient. He experienced (learned) the terrible consequences of sin all creation would have gone through if He hadn't had been willing to take onto Himself the guilty of the whole world. This is how and when he learned the greatness of His Mission.. Yes he always know about it, it wasn't a new concept to Him but here he faced it in absolute reality and learned the terror we would feel if we had to live trough it.. It's one thing to know about it.. It's another thing to live it.

Who said and where it it shown that Jesus had to learn line upon line and precept upon precept. you are inventing again.. And your inventions belittle God! On the cross Jesus cried out to the Father.. That wasn't the first time that He called out to Him.. Why are you bringing this instance up as a way to deny the trinity? Does it change the Facts that each member of the Godhead is called God and yet the Bible is clear that there is One God? Is the Bible not the word of God?

Is not the Father God? YES. And through Him was not all tat has ever been made, made? Does that not include the flesh in which the Spirit of Jesus indwells? Yes! It is then proper to call the Father His God.. Does that change the Fact that God is still the father, Son, and Holy Spirit? Are you denying now that the Son and the Holy Spirit are not God? That only the Father is God even though the Bible confirms that Jesus and the Holy Spirit are God, and because there is only one God they are just as much God as the Father? Conform your thinking to the Bible and these things can easily be understood.. IHS jim

[Pa Pa]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

James--you connect works with salvation here. Can we not be His--and still be saved?

Comments?

Accept
Ing his is a work, so when they say we do not need to do works.

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Pa Pa

Accept
Ing his is a work, so when they say we do not need to do works.

To answer you Both I will say that James in no way addresses how Grace (Which is the the real way we gain salvation, it's not found in works) come to a person. Grace is said to come to us through FAITH, and not by WORKS. Works and those works mentioned in James not the works insisted to in mormonism. reveal the faith of one Christian to another.. He said Show me your faith without your works and I will show you my faith by my works.. Can salvation be both of grace and of works? Nor according to the Holy Spirit through Paul

Roman11:6
And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

It's one or the other NOT BOTH.. IHS jim

[Ma'am]

We do our good works BECAUSE we are saved not to become saved. They are the by-product of our faith in Jesus Christ and proof that true faith is there for a false faith gives lip service to faith in Jesus, whereas a true faith in Jesus Christ expresses itself in acts of love and kindness towards others. We treat others as Jesus would want us to treat them.

So, there is NOTHING in the least confusing about faith alone, through grace alone. "For by grace you are saved; through faith--and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God--and NOT by works, so no man may boast." We are saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ our Lord.

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by Ma'am

So, there is NOTHING in the least confusing about faith alone, through grace alone.

The above is nominated for Most Ironic Statement of 2014.

"For by grace you are saved; through faith--and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God--and NOT by works, so no man may boast." We are saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ our Lord.

[Ma'am]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

The above is nominated for Most Ironic Statement of 2014.

Where is the irony? Did Paul mean by grace through faith in anyone besides Jesus Christ? Paul wrote what he wrote.

It is obvious that you don't understand the true gospel of Jesus Christ.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Ma'am

Where is the irony? Did Paul mean by grace through faith in anyone besides Jesus Christ? Paul wrote what he wrote.

It is obvious that you don't understand the true gospel of Jesus Christ.

You mean this one?


Matthew 19:16-18---King James Version (KJV)


16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?

17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,

If that is true--faith alone theology is false. Ma'am--the scriptures have God giving His salvational grace to them that obey Him--and faith alone cannot fit into that theology.

James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)

24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

[Ma'am]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

You mean this one?


Matthew 19:16-18---King James Version (KJV)


16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?

17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,

If that is true--faith alone theology is false. Ma'am--the scriptures have God giving His salvational grace to them that obey Him--and faith alone cannot fit into that theology.

James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)

24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Like most Mormons, you are talented at picking and choosing which verses to use to supposedly support your beliefs, while ignoring those that do not. Was Paul wrong when he wrote, "For by grace you are saved; through faith--and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God--and not by works, so no man may boast"?

Was Paul wrong when he wrote in Romans 4:4-5, "Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness."

Was he wrong when he also wrote, in Romans 3:24--"...being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus..."

See? Justification--being declared righteous and not guilty by God on account of our faith in Christ Jesus--is a gift. Was Paul wrong?

Was he wrong when he wrote, "For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is life eternal in Christ Jesus our Lord." (Rom. 6:23).

Paul writes that salvation and justification are FREE from God in Christ Jesus our Lord. If we have to do good works before God will give us this justification and salvation, how, then, can they be FREE?

James is talking about a living faith. I think he said to be "doers of the word and not hearers only." Our faith we declare in Christ Jesus should be backed up by deeds. But until we DO have faith in Jesus Christ, we can do nothing pleasing to God. How can we, when the unsaved are dead in their tresp***es and sins and in the uncircumcision of their hearts?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Ma'am

We do our good works BECAUSE we are saved not to become saved.

That might not fit the scriptures in all ways:


John 5:28-29----King James Version (KJV)

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.

Could you explain why Christ testified to the fact all will be judged according to their deeds--and that for life or ****ation?


Matthew 16:27---King James Version (KJV)

27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

They are the by-product of our faith in Jesus Christ and proof that true faith is there for a false faith gives lip service to faith in Jesus,

That begs the question--is true faith necessary for salvation? Or, are we first saved by false, dead faith--and it becomes true faith following being saved?


James 2:26---King James Version (KJV)

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

whereas a true faith in Jesus Christ expresses itself in acts of love and kindness towards others. We treat others as Jesus would want us to treat them.

So, there is NOTHING in the least confusing about faith alone,

Except for the fact there is but one mention of "faith alone" in any translation you would use:


James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)

24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

"For by grace you are saved; through faith--and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God--and NOT by works, so no man may boast." We are saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ our Lord.

Do you believe that is dead faith it refers to?

James 2:26---King James Version (KJV)

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

[Ma'am]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

That might not fit the scriptures in all ways:


John 5:28-29----King James Version (KJV)

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.

Could you explain why Christ testified to the fact all will be judged according to their deeds--and that for life or ****ation?


Matthew 16:27---King James Version (KJV)

27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.



That begs the question--is true faith necessary for salvation? Or, are we first saved by false, dead faith--and it becomes true faith following being saved?


James 2:26---King James Version (KJV)

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.




Except for the fact there is but one mention of "faith alone" in any translation you would use:


James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)

24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.



Do you believe that is dead faith it refers to?

James 2:26---King James Version (KJV)

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

True faith always results in true good works, done out of gra***ude for the salvation we receive from Christ Jesus our Lord.

And I believe you are wrong about the mention of "faith alone" in any translation we could use. Doesn't Joseph Smith, in his translation, say that we are saved by grace through faith alone, in Eph. 2:8? I will need to check. No, it is Romans 3:8--here it is:

Such comments seem to overlook one very important "correction" Joseph Smith made to the Bible in 1833. In his Inspired Version (A.K.A. Joseph Smith Translation) of the Bible, Smith altered Romans 3:28. The King James Version (the official Bible of the LDS Church) reads: "Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law." However, Joseph Smith included one simple word to his rendition of this beloved p***age. In his "translation" Smith added the word alone. Today it reads: "Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith alone without the deeds of the law."

I believe it is Joseph Smith who is or rather was, the confused one. He couldn't seem to get his beliefs straight, the way he added and subtracted from Scripture in his own rendition of the Bible.

from http://www.mrm.org/faith-alone-in-jst


But I see nothing confusing in the grace through faith alone salvation. Jesus did all that is necessary to save us; we can do nothing to help save ourselves. If we could, then Jesus would not have cried triumphantly from the cross, "It is finished!" If there still remained stuff we have to to help save ourselves, He would have shouted instead, "To be continued!"

By the way, was Paul wrong in what he wrote in Eph. 2:8? He said we are saved by grace through faith and not by works, so no one can boast. Therefore, what is there left to be saved by?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---That might not fit the scriptures in all ways:


John 5:28-29----King James Version (KJV)

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.

Could you explain why Christ testified to the fact all will be judged according to their deeds--and that for life or ****ation?


Matthew 16:27---King James Version (KJV)

27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.



That begs the question--is true faith necessary for salvation? Or, are we first saved by false, dead faith--and it becomes true faith following being saved?


James 2:26---King James Version (KJV)

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Except for the fact there is but one mention of "faith alone" in any translation you would use:


James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)

24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.



Do you believe that is dead faith it refers to?

James 2:26---King James Version (KJV)

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Originally Posted by Ma'am

True faith always results in true good works,

Again--is it true faith before or after the works?

James 2:26---King James Version (KJV)

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

And I believe you are wrong about the mention of "faith alone" in any translation we could use. Doesn't Joseph Smith, in his translation, say that we are saved by grace through faith alone, in Eph. 2:8? I will need to check. No, it is Romans 3:8--here it is:

I stated in any translation you would use--not could use. Ma'am--you don't use the JST.

The JST was a differentiation between the Mosaic Law and the Gospel of grace--not a theology, as the faith alone has made it. Again--this is what is stated about the theology:

James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)

24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

But I see nothing confusing in the grace through faith alone salvation.

I do. What is it about the fact "faith alone" is not found in any translation you would use do you not believe?

James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)
[/B]
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Jesus did all that is necessary to save us; we can do nothing to help save ourselves.

The Biblical record is clear--Jesus alone in the Atonement--and God gives His salvational grace to those who obey Him:


Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)

9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

If we could, then Jesus would not have cried triumphantly from the cross, "It is finished!" If there still remained stuff we have to to help save ourselves, He would have shouted instead, "To be continued!"

God's part is finished--do you believe Peter told the truth?


Acts2:38--KJV
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.


Christ?


Mark 16:16---King James Version (KJV)


16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be ****ed.

By the way, was Paul wrong in what he wrote in Eph. 2:8? He said we are saved by grace through faith and not by works, so no one can boast. Therefore, what is there left to be saved by?

That we are saved by grace--and not faith nor works--and that grace p***es through faith--is that dead faith Paul referred to?

James 2:26---King James Version (KJV)

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.


God gives His salvational grace to them that obey Him:


Acts 5:32---King James Version (KJV)

32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

[Christian]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

James--you connect works with salvation here. Can we not be His--and still be saved?

Comments?

My father-in-law (to the best of my knowledge) confessed Jesus Christ as HIS lord for the first time ever, on his death bed. He had faith, but no works. Are you claiming he 'mustagone' to Hell?

I don't think so.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Christian

My father-in-law (to the best of my knowledge) confessed Jesus Christ as HIS lord for the first time ever, on his death bed. He had faith, but no works. Are you claiming he 'mustagone' to Hell?

I don't think so.

I don't know where your father in law went--but I know what the scriptures state--and that is, those who obey Christ receive of His salvational grace:


Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)

9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

[Apologette]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

I don't know where your father in law went--but I know what the scriptures state--and that is, those who obey Christ receive of His salvational grace:


Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)

9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

So, do you obey your "real god" Satan?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post-----I don't know where your father in law went--but I know what the scriptures state--and that is, those who obey Christ receive of His salvational grace:

Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)

9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Originally Posted by Apologette

So, do you obey your "real god" Satan?

The scriptures have God giving His salvational grace to them that obey Him--regardless of what you believe I do.

Catherine--that renders faith alone false--at once. Why don't the faith alone believe the Biblical NT doctrines? Why don't you use the Bible?


2 Timothy 3:15-17---King James Version (KJV)


15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

[Christian]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

I don't know where your father in law went--but I know what the scriptures state--and that is, those who obey Christ receive of His salvational grace:


Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)

9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

In other words, you don't know where those who come to faith on their deathbed go.

Neither can you tell us what 'obeying Him' involves.

According to my Bible:
Rom 4:4-8
4 Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. 5 And to the one who does not work but trusts him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, 6 just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works:
7 "Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
and whose sins are covered;
8 blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin."
ESV

My sins would not be counted against me even if I didn't have works, because I have FAITH IN JESUS CHRIST.

Obedience to Jesus Christ is to have FAITH in Him. IF you have faith, you WILL have works; your works naturally follow what you really believe.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Christian

My sins would not be counted against me even if I didn't have works, because I have FAITH IN JESUS CHRIST.

Interesting. How does your statement compare to the scriptures?


Galatians 5:19-21----King James Version (KJV)


19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Obedience to Jesus Christ is to have FAITH in Him.

I agree. But you just connected works and faith as integral components. If that is so--then why do the faith alone preach a gospel that has God giving His salvational grace to them without any acts of obedience to Jesus Christ?

IF you have faith, you WILL have works; your works naturally follow what you really believe.[/COLOR]

Christian--in the faith alone theology--acts of obedience to Jesus Christ has nothing to do with salvation.

[Christian]

berry posted:

Originally Posted by ChristianMy sins would not be counted against me even if I didn't have works, because I have FAITH IN JESUS CHRIST.

Interesting. How does your statement compare to the scriptures?

It agrees with scripture completely.

Rom 4:4-8
4 Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. 5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness, 6 just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:
7 "BLESSED ARE THOSE WHOSE LAWLESS DEEDS HAVE BEEN FORGIVEN,
AND WHOSE SINS HAVE BEEN COVERED.
8 "BLESSED IS THE MAN WHOSE SIN THE LORD WILL NOT TAKE INTO ACCOUNT."
NASU

That includes EVERY ONE OF US CHRISTIANS.

Evil men can do nice things. The talaban build hospitals and feed the poor in the middle east; they are not Christians, but are muslims. Mormons have their stake warehouses for their own members. But you can do good works all day without Jesus Christ and still go to Hell.

Galatians 5:19-21----King James Version (KJV)


19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

And of course CHRISTIANS (everyone who has saving faith in Jesus Christ) don't do those things. Mormons do their secret handshakes, secret temple things, but we CHRISTIANS don't deal in that junk.

Obedience to Jesus Christ is to have FAITH in Him.

I agree. But you just connected works and faith as integral components. If that is so--then why do the faith alone preach a gospel that has God giving His salvational grace to them without any acts of obedience to Jesus Christ?

The FAITH (and nothing else) in Jesus Christ (Romans 4:4 above, Eph 2:8-9, etc etc) is what saves you. The good works naturally follow. THAT is the 'faith alone saves you" 'theology' that you obviously can't understand.

IF you have faith, you WILL have works; your works naturally follow what you really believe.

Christian--in the faith alone theology--acts of obedience to Jesus Christ has nothing to do with salvation.

You are talking about the understanding I subscribe to. . .the acts of obedience DO have nothing to do with GETTING your salvation; they are EVIDENCE you HAVE BEEN saved; they are the natural OUTCOME from having been saved.

You don't know what you are talking about when you whine against 'the faith alone theology.' You don't know what it IS.

In the BIBLICAL Jesus Christ,
morefish