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Thread: It still bugs me

  1. #1
    James Banta
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    Default It still bugs me

    Today we were visiting a man in the hospital. Two very nice LDS men came in and gave the patient the elements of the LDS sacrament.. That's where I start to have trouble.. It's not that these men weren't committed to their church it is the elements themselves.. Levin bread, a symbol of sin, being the subst i tute for the body of the Lord? Mere water being used as a subst i tute for His blood? Is this a problem for anyone else? IHS jim
    Last edited by James Banta; 07-29-2013 at 07:33 AM.

  2. #2
    Senior Member johnd's Avatar
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    I presume the patient was a Mormon. Still not good, just wondering if they were doing it to a non-mormon?
    The Bible is its own best commentary.
    Prophecy is the word of God
    which sometimes speaks of future... sometimes of the present... sometimes of the past.
    A prophet is the tool God uses.
    It's not about the prophet, but about the God who uses the prophet to speak his word...

  3. #3
    Sir
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    Quote Originally Posted by James Banta View Post
    Today we were visiting a man in the hospital. Two very nice LDS men came in and gave the patient the elements of the LDS sacrament.. That's where I start to have trouble.. It's not that these men weren't committed to their church it is the elements themselves.. Levin bread, a symbol of sin, being the subs***ute for the body of the Lord? Mere water being used as a subs***ute for His blood? Is this a problem for anyone else? IHS jim
    Your hypercritical anti-Mormon nature is not really a problem for me. I just find it rather sad that even while visiting a man in the hospital you let your biggoted views of Mormons cloud your experience there with the man you saw.

    As for the sacrament, ironic that anti-LDS claim the Mormons are the legalistic religion, while they pontificate on the substance of the symbols used to represent the atonement of Christ.

    Symbols, by nature, mean to a person only what they want the symbol to mean. If the focus is on Jesus Christ and His atonement and the covenant that was made between the sinner and Christ, the material elements do not matter.

  4. #4
    Senior Member johnd's Avatar
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    Joseph Smith jr was the bigot, Sir.

    Whether he actually had an ethereal experience or made it all up, he came out condemning the Church of Jesus Christ before taking that name for his religious contrivance. His actions before the experience with God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Ghost (or Moromi depending on which version you believe) were that of a dishonest hoodlum. And the events surrounding his death suggest that he was killed by Masons whose deep secrets he swore to keep secret he divulged and incorporated into your religion proving he was dishonest his whole life.

    And his legacy leading millions astray makes him on par with some of the worst people to have ever lived.

    Well meaning most Mormons may be, but theologically wrong as proven by the Bible. It is not bigotry to warn people who are sincerely convinced that the bridge ahead is intact when in fact it is out. That's love and comp***ion.
    Last edited by johnd; 07-28-2013 at 09:03 PM.
    The Bible is its own best commentary.
    Prophecy is the word of God
    which sometimes speaks of future... sometimes of the present... sometimes of the past.
    A prophet is the tool God uses.
    It's not about the prophet, but about the God who uses the prophet to speak his word...

  5. #5
    Sir
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnd View Post
    Joseph Smith jr was the bigot, Sir.

    Whether he actually had an ethereal experience or made it all up, he came out condemning the Church of Jesus Christ before taking that name for his religious contrivance. His actions before the experience with God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Ghost (or Moromi depending on which version you believe) were that of a hoodlum. And the events surrounding his death suggest that he was killed by Masons whose deep secrets he swore to keep secret he divulged and incorporated into your religion. And leading millions astray makes him on par with some of the worst people to have ever lived.
    Yeah, I've heard it all before. And the same storyline has been chanted for 180 years.

    Well meaning most Mormons may be, but theologically wrong as proven by the Bible. It is not bigotry to warn people who are sincerely convinced that the bridge ahead is intact when in fact it is out. That's love.
    That one too. Anything an anti-Mormon does or syas is okay because they feel the ends justify the means. All out of love. Pfft...

  6. #6
    Senior Member johnd's Avatar
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    Well, are you willing to go toe to toe using the King James Bible to see where LDS is wrong or not?
    The Bible is its own best commentary.
    Prophecy is the word of God
    which sometimes speaks of future... sometimes of the present... sometimes of the past.
    A prophet is the tool God uses.
    It's not about the prophet, but about the God who uses the prophet to speak his word...

  7. #7
    Sir
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnd View Post
    Well, are you willing to go toe to toe using the King James Bible to see where LDS is wrong or not?
    No. Anti-LDS have been singing that line for 180 years as well.

    The problem isn't the Bible. It's your interpretation of the Bible. So such an exercise is simply futile.

  8. #8
    Senior Member johnd's Avatar
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    2 Peter 1:20-21 (KJV)
    20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
    21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
    The Bible is its own best commentary.
    Prophecy is the word of God
    which sometimes speaks of future... sometimes of the present... sometimes of the past.
    A prophet is the tool God uses.
    It's not about the prophet, but about the God who uses the prophet to speak his word...

  9. #9
    Senior Member johnd's Avatar
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    1 Thessalonians 5:21 (KJV)
    21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
    The Bible is its own best commentary.
    Prophecy is the word of God
    which sometimes speaks of future... sometimes of the present... sometimes of the past.
    A prophet is the tool God uses.
    It's not about the prophet, but about the God who uses the prophet to speak his word...

  10. #10
    Senior Member johnd's Avatar
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    1 John 4:1 (KJV)
    1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
    The Bible is its own best commentary.
    Prophecy is the word of God
    which sometimes speaks of future... sometimes of the present... sometimes of the past.
    A prophet is the tool God uses.
    It's not about the prophet, but about the God who uses the prophet to speak his word...

  11. #11
    Senior Member johnd's Avatar
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    Acts 17:11 (KJV)
    11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
    The Bible is its own best commentary.
    Prophecy is the word of God
    which sometimes speaks of future... sometimes of the present... sometimes of the past.
    A prophet is the tool God uses.
    It's not about the prophet, but about the God who uses the prophet to speak his word...

  12. #12
    Sir
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnd View Post
    2 Peter 1:20-21 (KJV)
    20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
    21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
    Great!!

    So your saying every single Christian believes every single Bible p***age in the exact same way?

    If not, my point stands.

  13. #13
    Senior Member johnd's Avatar
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    2 Timothy 3:15-16 (KJV)
    15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
    16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
    The Bible is its own best commentary.
    Prophecy is the word of God
    which sometimes speaks of future... sometimes of the present... sometimes of the past.
    A prophet is the tool God uses.
    It's not about the prophet, but about the God who uses the prophet to speak his word...

  14. #14
    Senior Member johnd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir View Post
    Great!!

    So your saying every single Christian believes every single Bible p***age in the exact same way?

    If not, my point stands.
    No, your point fails on the say so of Joseph Smith jr.

    Keep reading.
    The Bible is its own best commentary.
    Prophecy is the word of God
    which sometimes speaks of future... sometimes of the present... sometimes of the past.
    A prophet is the tool God uses.
    It's not about the prophet, but about the God who uses the prophet to speak his word...

  15. #15
    Senior Member johnd's Avatar
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    John 16:13 (KJV)
    13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
    The Bible is its own best commentary.
    Prophecy is the word of God
    which sometimes speaks of future... sometimes of the present... sometimes of the past.
    A prophet is the tool God uses.
    It's not about the prophet, but about the God who uses the prophet to speak his word...

  16. #16
    Senior Member johnd's Avatar
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    Smith was one man. He mislead millions. Based on his say so.
    The Bible is its own best commentary.
    Prophecy is the word of God
    which sometimes speaks of future... sometimes of the present... sometimes of the past.
    A prophet is the tool God uses.
    It's not about the prophet, but about the God who uses the prophet to speak his word...

  17. #17
    Sir
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnd View Post
    Smith was one man. He mislead millions. Based on his say so.
    I see you are simply going into your programmed responses of throwing out Bible verses in hopes of proving me wrong, even though I already stated it was futile and I wasn't interested.

    Anti-LDS that "listen" that well in a conversation make me question what they are hearing to come up with their theological convictions. Simply hearing what they want to hear and ignoring anything that they don't.

    Have fun!

  18. #18
    Senior Member johnd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir View Post
    I see you are simply going into your programmed responses of throwing out Bible verses in hopes of proving me wrong, even though I already stated it was futile and I wasn't interested.

    Anti-LDS that "listen" that well in a conversation make me question what they are hearing to come up with their theological convictions. Simply hearing what they want to hear and ignoring anything that they don't.

    Have fun!
    No, I was answering your objection to our dialogue with scriptures.

    You seem comfortable in your "programmed" responses.

    One day you will realize they are only programmed responses. Nothing more.

    Perhaps then you will see that only the truth matters.
    The Bible is its own best commentary.
    Prophecy is the word of God
    which sometimes speaks of future... sometimes of the present... sometimes of the past.
    A prophet is the tool God uses.
    It's not about the prophet, but about the God who uses the prophet to speak his word...

  19. #19
    Sir
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnd View Post
    No, I was answering your objection to our dialogue with scriptures.

    You seem comfortable in your "programmed" responses.

    One day you will realize they are only programmed responses. Nothing more.

    Perhaps then you will see that only the truth matters.
    No, in fact you dodged my question.

    Care to try again?

    Do all Christians hold every single Biblical verse with the same interpretation? If not, why not?

  20. #20
    James Banta
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir View Post
    Your hypercritical anti-Mormon nature is not really a problem for me. I just find it rather sad that even while visiting a man in the hospital you let your biggoted views of Mormons cloud your experience there with the man you saw.

    As for the sacrament, ironic that anti-LDS claim the Mormons are the legalistic religion, while they pontificate on the substance of the symbols used to represent the atonement of Christ.

    Symbols, by nature, mean to a person only what they want the symbol to mean. If the focus is on Jesus Christ and His atonement and the covenant that was made between the sinner and Christ, the material elements do not matter.
    Just where on my comments is there any attack on mormons? By calling me a hypercritical anti-Mormon by nature, you attack me wrongly.. I didn't say one word that attacked any LDS in my post. I said that leaven is a symbol of sin as stated by God through the Apostle Paul. Would it be ok if we decided to say that a Bishop of the Church can be a polygamist because we don't like his shepherding of the church being the symbol of the shepherding of Jesus over His Church? Can we do what ever we want with the symbols HE gave to us.. You insist that baptism by completed by completely emerging a person in water.. Why not just pour or sprinkle? It's because symbols are important. Mormonism still uses symbols for elements of the Lord's supper. It has just decide that those used by the Lord Himself doesn't really matter. But I am the hypocrite here, right? And here in your "sacred" ordinance You use a symbol for SIN to be a symbol for the body of the Lord. That IS flat blasphemy (1 Corinthians 5:7-8 ).. Don't come here and tell us that mormonism is THE one true Church and then ***ociate the Lord of Glory with a symbol that God has used as a symbol of sin.. This isn't hard or even expensive to fix. Just use triskets, or any unleavened cracker.. Someone could even bake a batch of unleavened bread.

    So if the elements don't matter, then the necessity for baptism or the manor in which it is preformed doesn't matter either. The covenants that are there is all that matters.. IHS jim

  21. #21
    James Banta
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir View Post
    Yeah, I've heard it all before. And the same storyline has been chanted for 180 years.



    That one too. Anything an anti-Mormon does or syas is okay because they feel the ends justify the means. All out of love. Pfft...
    Don't bother to address the problem brought up in the OP, just set all the evidence we bring here aside calling it anti mormon.. Sir there was not one word of an attack against the mormon people in any of this.. Yes we question mormonism but that is the man with the red flag trying to tell people that the bridge ahead is indeed out.. IHS jim

  22. #22
    James Banta
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir View Post
    No, in fact you dodged my question.

    Care to try again?

    Do all Christians hold every single Biblical verse with the same interpretation? If not, why not?
    I do!!! And I can..

    On the subject of who God is and what He has done for our salvation (The Gospel) there is no difference among Christians. All Christian believe that God is the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Self existent, eternal and all powerful. They all deny that there is any other God since God is the creator of ALL thing whether we can see them, or feel them. That He in the person of the Son, became flesh, lived a sinless life, died for all our sins, and rose the third day for our justification. He did it all and asked only that we trust Him that 1. He is who He said He is, and 2. That He did what He promised to do. That is all a person must do to gain the blessing of His salvation, That is indeed GOOD NEWS, the Gospel.. Any additions to that removes a person from faith and a place in the family of God.. IHS jim

  23. #23
    Senior Member johnd's Avatar
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    Galatians 1:8-9 (KJV)
    8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
    9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

    If LDS held to the same Gospel preached by the Apostle Paul... why the Book of Mormon, Pearl of Great Price, Doctrines and Covenants?
    The Bible is its own best commentary.
    Prophecy is the word of God
    which sometimes speaks of future... sometimes of the present... sometimes of the past.
    A prophet is the tool God uses.
    It's not about the prophet, but about the God who uses the prophet to speak his word...

  24. #24
    Senior Member johnd's Avatar
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    I'm not here to fight a fight win a war or a debate. Just getting to the truth.

    John 17:17 (KJV)
    17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
    The Bible is its own best commentary.
    Prophecy is the word of God
    which sometimes speaks of future... sometimes of the present... sometimes of the past.
    A prophet is the tool God uses.
    It's not about the prophet, but about the God who uses the prophet to speak his word...

  25. #25
    Senior Member johnd's Avatar
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    Isaiah 43:10-11 (KJV)
    10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
    11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.
    The Bible is its own best commentary.
    Prophecy is the word of God
    which sometimes speaks of future... sometimes of the present... sometimes of the past.
    A prophet is the tool God uses.
    It's not about the prophet, but about the God who uses the prophet to speak his word...

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