Why I like this forum so much

[RealFakeHair]

Originally Posted by jdjhere

nrajeffreturns stated: "I don't think you can back that allegation/opinion of yours up with a quote. Prove me wrong."

jdjhere asked: "Which allegation do you mean? That Joseph Smith believed polygamy was given directly to him from God? Or the other part... that God is an exalted man?"

The saddest thing about a TBM is their devotion to a sexual predator of the likes of Joseph Smith jr. This I can not understand or excuse away. He used religion the lowest form of con-ery to be-witch his followers. The word HATE can't explain my distaste for the lowlife sub-human Joseph Smith jr.
Oh, did I ever tell you how I feel about Joseph Smiht jr.?

[jdjhere]

Yeah, its amazing the denial of history. If you read the Doctrines and Covenants Section 132 55, 62-63 and Brigham Young in Journal of Discourses 4:56 you get the idea of what these early men taught. Then you read Jacob 2:24 and you are like "huh??" Crazy

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by jdjhere

Which allegation do you mean?

This one, and I will italicize the part you need to substantiate:

"Joseph Smith to his last breathe claimed that what he did was from God Himself because, after all, that was what God Himself had done as an exalted man! "

thanks

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by RealFakeHair

The word HATE can't explain my distaste for the lowlife sub-human Joseph Smith jr. Oh, did I ever tell you how I feel about Joseph Smiht jr.?

So it's safe to say that you're anti-Joseph Smith...

[jdjhere]

"Joseph Smith to his last breathe claimed that what he did was from God Himself because, after all, that was what God Himself had done as an exalted man! "

Joseph Smith never retracted any of his statements or "scriptures" about multiple wives (or ANYTHING for that matter) before he died, like this one- (apparently this is God speaking) Doctrines and Covenants 132 51-54 " Verily, I say unto you: A commandment I give unto mine handmaid, Emma Smith, your wife, whom I have given unto you, that she stay herself and partake not of that which I commanded you to offer unto her; for I did it, saith the Lord, to aprove you all, as I did Abraham, and that I might require an offering at your hand, by covenant and sacrifice. And let mine handmaid, Emma Smith, receive all those that have been given unto my servant Joseph, and who are virtuous and pure before me; and those who are not pure, and have said they were pure, shall be destroyed, saith the Lord God. For I am the Lord thy God, and ye shall obey my voice; and I give unto my servant Joseph that he shall be made ruler over many things; for he hath been faithful over a few things, and from henceforth I will strengthen him. And I command mine handmaid, Emma Smith, to abide and cleave unto my servant Joseph, and to none else. But if she will not abide this commandment she shall be destroyed, saith the Lord; for I am the Lord thy God, and will destroy her if she abide not in my law."

So Joe gets as many wives as the Lord will give him... but NOT Emma or she will be destroyed. Wow.

Brigham Young taught it as well, and where did he get the idea from?
"If you have in your hearts to say…'we will not, therefore, be polygamists lest we should fail in obtaining some earthly honor, character and office, etc,"-the man that has that in his heart, and will continue to persist in pursuing that policy, will come short of dwelling in the presence of the Father and the Son, in celestial glory. The only men who become Gods, even the Sons of God, are those who enter into polygamy. Others attain unto a glory and may even be permitted to come into the presence of the Father and the Son; but they cannot reign as kings in glory, because they had blessing offered unto them, and they refused to accept them. The Lord gave a revelation through Joseph Smith, His servant; and we have believed and practiced it. -Journal of Discourses 11:269 (Aug. 19, 1866)

nrajeffreturns- Why would Brigham practice it if Joseph ever retracted it?

[jdjhere]

"Joseph Smith to his last breathe claimed that what he did was from God Himself because, after all, that was what God Himself had done as an exalted man!

Joseph Smith, History of the Church, 6:303-304

"I want to ask this congregation, every man, woman and child, to answer the question in their own heart, what kind of a being God is? ... Does any man or woman know? Have any of you seen him, heard him, or communed with him? . . . God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens! That is the great secret. If the veil were rent today, and the great God who holds this world in its orbit, and who upholds all worlds and all things by his power, was to make Himself visible, I say -- if you were to see Him today, you would see Him like a man in form -- like yourselves in all the person, image, and very form as a man; for Adam was created in the very fashion, image and likeness of God, and received instruction from, and walked, talked and conversed with Him, as one man talks and communes with another.... It is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the Character of God, and to know that we may converse with him as one man converses with another, and that He was once a man like us; yea, that God Himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ himself did; and I will show it from the Bible."

Brigham Young taught: "Our Father begot all the spirits that were before any tabernacle was made. When our Father came into the Garden He came with his Celestial body and brought one of his wives (Eve) with him and ate of the fruit of the Garden until He could beget a Tabernacle. And Adam is Michael God and all the God that we have anything to do with. They ate of this fruit and formed the first Tabernacle that was formed. And when the Virgin Mary was begotten with Child it was by the Father and in no other way only as we were begotten. I will tell you the truth as it is in God. The world don't know that Jesus Christ our Elder Brother was begotten by our Father in Heaven. Handle it as you please, it will either seal the ****ation or salvation of man. He was begotten by the Father and not by the Holy Ghost.
Brigham Young, Wilford Woodruff's Journal, April 9, 1852

[RealFakeHair]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

So it's safe to say that you're anti-Joseph Smith...

Might say I am leaning that way. lol

[jdjhere]

Interesting that this was on the MSN startup page today. To me, these FLDS folks are following what Joseph Smith actually taught and lived and the LDS are not.

http://www.today.com/video/today/529...msnhp#52999777

Be sure to watch this tonight (Friday 9-13-13): Dateline NBC 9:00PM
An interview with Rebecca Musser, a former member of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Musser speaks out about leaving the polygamous sect and fighting for justice against church leader Warren Jeffs.

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by theway

No... That's just the best you can expect from me on this tired forum, as there is nobody listening anyway.

I have to believe that is all you are capable of.. IHS jim

[jdjhere]

Nobody is listening here? Thats ok... God is, and anybody can stop by at any time to read the posts. Maybe even one hundred years from now. Go ahead James and tell us about some of your experiences as an LDS.

[nrajeffreturns]

jdj, you did a really good *** of NOT providing the evidence I asked for. Is that because you failed to find any, so you had to throw in, as a subs***ute for the requested evidence, some non-evidencial quotes that didn't support your claim?

Are you ready to just admit that your allegation was a false one? If so, I am ready to give you some integrity points.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

Many of them were merely sealed to him in the afterlife, which federal laws really can't touch.

So you don't believe that Joseph was married to anyone besides his first wife?

[jdjhere]

nrajeffreturns, I guess I dont understand what exactly you are asking for. How can I fail to find what you are asking for when I dont even know what it is you want? I dont need your approval of my integrity either because I have plenty of it. So, now that you have questioned my integrity when I was just trying to answer you, spell out exactly what you are asking for and I will do my best to give it to you. Ask it in a simple question and I will try to answer you. Thanks.

nrajeffstated: "This one, and I will italicize the part you need to substantiate..."

The whole thing looked italicized to me, nrajeffreturns.

Here is what I stated: "Joseph Smith to his last breathe claimed that what he did was from God Himself because, after all, that was what God Himself had done as an exalted man!"

Now, what part of the above statement do you have a problem with?

[nrajeffreturns]

Maybe you're running a browser that italicizes everything. This should work, though:

"Joseph Smith to his last breathe claimed that what he did was from God Himself because, after all, that was what God Himself had done as an exalted man!"

I saw NOTHING in the quotes you posted that supports your allegation that Joseph Smith claimed that what he did was what God had done as an exalted man.

If your quotes actually did support your claim and I missed it, then all you need to do is re-post JUST THE PARTS that actually support your claim.

I hope I just missed it, and that's why I saw nothing that supports your claim, because otherwise, your other claim--to have plenty of integrity--might be questionable.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

"Joseph Smith to his last breathe claimed that what he did was from God Himself because, after all, that was what God Himself had done as an exalted man!"

I saw NOTHING in the quotes you posted that supports your allegation that Joseph Smith claimed that what he did was what God had done as an exalted man.

What do you think that quote means?

[jdjhere]

I will just ignore your comments about my integrity since you don't even know me. To answer (I hope) what you have asked me, I ***ume I am understanding you and you are asking this- Joseph Smith (himself) claimed that what he did was what God had done as an exalted man. King Follet Sermon- "God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens. That is the great secret... You have got to learn how to be Gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all Gods have done before you..." Joseph Smith

Read History of the Church, Vol. 6, p. 473-479. Meeting in the Grove, east of the Temple, June 16, 1844. Joseph smith claims there are many gods and that we can BECOME one. Why? For exaltation and to move on to the next plane of existence in the telestial heaven and to populate that heaven with his host of wives. This is CLEARLY taught and Joseph Smith NEVER retracted any of his statements about this. That is why Brigham Young said this: " Brigham Young taught: "Our Father begot all the spirits that were before any tabernacle was made. When our Father came into the Garden He came with his Celestial body and brought one of his wives (Eve) with him and ate of the fruit of the Garden until He could beget a Tabernacle. And Adam is Michael God and all the God that we have anything to do with. They ate of this fruit and formed the first Tabernacle that was formed. And when the Virgin Mary was begotten with Child it was by the Father and in no other way only as we were begotten. I will tell you the truth as it is in God. The world don't know that Jesus Christ our Elder Brother was begotten by our Father in Heaven. Handle it as you please, it will either seal the ****ation or salvation of man. He was begotten by the Father and not by the Holy Ghost. Brigham Young, Wilford Woodruff's Journal, April 9, 1852

And WHY did Brigham Young teach this anyway? WHERE did it come from? Lets see in his own words: "If you have in your hearts to say…'we will not, therefore, be polygamists lest we should fail in obtaining some earthly honor, character and office, etc,"-the man that has that in his heart, and will continue to persist in pursuing that policy, will come short of dwelling in the presence of the Father and the Son, in celestial glory. The only men who become Gods, even the Sons of God, are those who enter into polygamy. Others attain unto a glory and may even be permitted to come into the presence of the Father and the Son; but they cannot reign as kings in glory, because they had blessing offered unto them, and they refused to accept them. The Lord gave a revelation through Joseph Smith, His servant; and we have believed and practiced it. -Journal of Discourses 11:269 (Aug. 19, 1866)

If Joseph Smith did NOT teach this then WHY did Brigham Young PRACTICE it? Because Joseph Smith TAUGHT it or Brigham Young is lying, take your pick.

Joseph Smith never retracted any of his statements or "scriptures" about multiple wives (or ANYTHING for that matter) before he died, like this one- (apparently this is God speaking) Doctrines and Covenants 132 51-54 " Verily, I say unto you: A commandment I give unto mine handmaid, Emma Smith, your wife, whom I have given unto you, that she stay herself and partake not of that which I commanded you to offer unto her; for I did it, saith the Lord, to aprove you all, as I did Abraham, and that I might require an offering at your hand, by covenant and sacrifice. And let mine handmaid, Emma Smith, receive all those that have been given unto my servant Joseph, and who are virtuous and pure before me; and those who are not pure, and have said they were pure, shall be destroyed, saith the Lord God. For I am the Lord thy God, and ye shall obey my voice; and I give unto my servant Joseph that he shall be made ruler over many things; for he hath been faithful over a few things, and from henceforth I will strengthen him. And I command mine handmaid, Emma Smith, to abide and cleave unto my servant Joseph, and to none else. But if she will not abide this commandment she shall be destroyed, saith the Lord; for I am the Lord thy God, and will destroy her if she abide not in my law."

So Joe gets as many wives as the Lord will give him... but NOT Emma or she will be destroyed. Wow.
To me, these FLDS folks are following what Joseph Smith actually taught and lived and the LDS are not.
http://www.today.com/video/today/529...msnhp#52999777
An interview with Rebecca Musser, a former member of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Musser speaks out about leaving the polygamous sect and fighting for justice against church leader Warren Jeffs. Interestingly, Warren Jeffs told Rebecca Musser he would BREAK her and DESTROY her if she did not marry him. The parallel is noteable. A prophet using his power in the church for his carnal pleasure. LDS are STUCK with this splinter group coming from them, the FLDS church. They believe in the "prophet" Joseph Smith as well, and practice more closely what he taught on polygamy and plural Marriage than LDS do.

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by jdjhere

I will just ignore your comments about my integrity since you don't even know me.

You don't seem to refrain from attacking Joseph Smith's integrity, yet you never met him....

Are you saying that it's impossible, or wrong, to reach conclusions about a person's character based on things they have written, or have refused to provide? Help me out here.

To answer (I hope) what you have asked me,

I asked you to re-post ONLY the stuff that actually supports your accusation. You keep posting a lot of irrelevant stuff. So no, I am not thinking that you are finally giving what I actually asked for.

I ***ume I am understanding you and you are asking this- Joseph Smith (himself) claimed that what he did was what God had done as an exalted man.

That is the accusation that I have been asking you to substantiate. The question is whether you have done so.

King Follet Sermon- "God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens. That is the great secret... You have got to learn how to be Gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all Gods have done before you..." Joseph Smith

Doesn't really support your accusation.

Read History of the Church, Vol. 6, p. 473-479. Meeting in the Grove, east of the Temple, June 16, 1844. Joseph smith claims there are many gods and that we can BECOME one. Why? For exaltation and to move on to the next plane of existence in the telestial heaven and to populate that heaven with his host of wives.

Unsatisfactory as evidence. It's just your claim. Let's see QUOTES. "Populate the TELESTIAL heaven with a host of wives"?

If your citation really says that, I am quite ready to issue a sincere apology for doubting you. So bring on the quotes.

This is CLEARLY taught

See above. I question and challenge your ***ERTION that what you have CLAIMED was clearly taught BY JOSEPH SMITH, really WAS clearly taught BY JOSEPH SMITH.

" Brigham Young taught: "Our Father begot all the spirits that were before any tabernacle was made. When our Father came into the Garden He came with his Celestial body and brought one of his wives (Eve) with him and ate of the fruit of the Garden until He could beget a Tabernacle. And Adam is Michael God and all the God that we have anything to do with. They ate of this fruit and formed the first Tabernacle that was formed. And when the Virgin Mary was begotten with Child it was by the Father and in no other way only as we were begotten. I will tell you the truth as it is in God. The world don't know that Jesus Christ our Elder Brother was begotten by our Father in Heaven. Handle it as you please, it will either seal the ****ation or salvation of man. He was begotten by the Father and not by the Holy Ghost. Brigham Young, Wilford Woodruff's Journal, April 9, 1852

Disappointing, if you believe THAT counts as proof that Joseph Smith (himself) claimed that what he did was what God had done as an exalted man. The "one of his wives" comment, which was made NOT by Joseph Smith but allegedly by BRIGHAM YOUNG, refers to ADAM. Not to anything GOD did as an exalted man.

You are striking out.

[jdjhere]

Brigham Young said "The Lord gave a revelation through Joseph Smith, His servant; and we have believed and practiced it. -Journal of Discourses 11:269 (Aug. 19, 1866)
This was in reference to Polygamy.

I dont have anything written about me historically so you would have a hard time judging my integrity, nrajeffreturns,... but Joseph Smith has plenty. Therefore, without knowing him I can get an idea of what he taught and see the fruits of what he taught (LDS, FLDS, RLDS, etc...) If LDS scribes recorded him accurately we can see what he taught. If they did not the BOM should not be believed.

The funny thing with you LDS here is that you ignore your "prophets." This statement by Brigham is either true or false. If it is true, then Joseph Smith TAUGHT this, never retracted it or Brigham would not have SAID it or practiced it. If it is false, then your "prophets" are lying about your other "prophets" and the "only true church" needs to clean up its act.
By the way, nrajeffreturns, I dont even have one strike yet let alone striking out. You have some explaining to do about WHY, not just Brigham Young, but a HOST of your prophets teach, or have taught in the past, polygamy. It ALL began with Joseph Smith and everybody KNOWS it.
Why THIS? In 1890, church president Wilford Woodruff issued a Manifesto that officially terminated the practice of polygamy. Although this Manifesto did not dissolve existing plural marriages, relations with the United States markedly improved after 1890, such that Utah was admitted as a U.S. state. After the Manifesto, some Mormons continued to enter into polygamous marriages, but these eventually stopped in 1904 when church president Joseph F. Smith disavowed polygamy before Congress and issued a "Second Manifesto" calling for all plural marriages in the church to cease."
Joseph Smith taught Polygamy, practiced it, never recanted it and p***ed it on to the following "prophets." The "manifesto" kept the LDS church from getting kicked out of the country. For the interested reader, this was because it was taught that the LDS people needed to produce bodies for awaiting LDS spirits so they could live here, possible become exalted as gods and move on to popylate their own universes. That is why they teach god the father is an exalted man, once a human man like us. Also look above at what nrajeffreturns stated that Brigham Young said about ADAM, that he was a polygamous god before he ever came to earth, that he came here with ONE of his wives. This stuff gets pretty crazy!

[RealFakeHair]

nrajeffreturns RN,You don't seem to refrain from attacking Adoft Hitler integrity, yet you never met him....

Are you saying that it's impossible, or wrong, to reach conclusions about a person's character based on things they have written, or have refused to provide? Help me out here

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

You don't seem to refrain from attacking Joseph Smith's integrity, yet you never met him....

Is that your criteria to judge someone's integrity--actually having to meet someone face to face?

Jeff it amazes me the lengths you go to defend your false religion.

[jdjhere]

jdjhere stated: "Joseph Smith to his last breathe claimed that what he did was from God Himself because, after all, that was what God Himself had done as an exalted man!"

nrajeffreturns stated: "I saw NOTHING in the quotes you posted that supports your allegation that Joseph Smith claimed that what he did was what God had done as an exalted man."

Why isnt this clear to you, nrajeffreturns? Lets take it one step at a time- Do you believe Joseph Smith taught that there is more than one God?

[RealFakeHair]

Originally Posted by jdjhere

jdjhere stated: "Joseph Smith to his last breathe claimed that what he did was from God Himself because, after all, that was what God Himself had done as an exalted man!"

nrajeffreturns stated: "I saw NOTHING in the quotes you posted that supports your allegation that Joseph Smith claimed that what he did was what God had done as an exalted man."
.
Why isnt this clear to you, nrajeffreturns? Lets take it one step at a time- Do you believe Joseph Smith taught that there is more than one God?

nrajeffreturns, rn, is doing the mormon full monty. I can't blame him it is all they have.

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by RealFakeHair

nrajeffreturns RN,You don't seem to refrain from attacking Adoft Hitler integrity, yet you never met him....

Uh, you're going after the wrong target. It was jdj who implied that you can't make conclusions about person's integrity unless you know him.

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Is that your criteria to judge someone's integrity--actually having to meet someone face to face?

Jeff it amazes me the lengths you go to defend your false religion.

Uh, you're going after the wrong target. It was jdj who implied that you can't make conclusions about person's integrity unless you know him. So what does this news mean to your implication that it's a defense of one's false religion, if one states that you can't make conclusions about person's integrity unless you know him?

Are you happy, now that you realize what you're saying about jdj?

[RealFakeHair]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

Uh, you're going after the wrong target. It was jdj who implied that you can't make conclusions about person's integrity unless you know him.

Well, then, I am glad U don't know me! lol