Why I like this forum so much

[jdjhere]

Joseph Smith: These are the first principles of consolation. ... To inherit the same power, the same glory and the same exaltation, until you arrive at the station of a god, and ascend the throne of eternal power, the same as those who have gone before. What did Jesus do? Why, I do the things I saw my Father do when worlds came rolling into existence. My Father worked out His kingdom with fear and trembling, and I must do the same; and when I get my kingdom, I shall present it to My Father, so that He may obtain kingdom upon kingdom, and it will exalt Him in glory. He will then take a higher exaltation, and I will take His place, and thereby become exalted myself. (History of the Church, vol. 6, p. 306)

[jdjhere]

That's a great try nrajeffreturns- to try to turn Christians against each other to get off the topic at hand... but it won't work. Now did Joseph Smith believe more than one god existed and was this p***ed on to your other "prophets?" I believe so from simply reading LDS materials:

Speaking in the Tabernacle on August 8, 1852, Brigham Young stated,
"The Lord created you and me for the purpose of becoming Gods like Himself; when we have been proved in our present capacity, and been faithful with all things He puts into our possession. We are created, we are born for the express purpose of growing up from the low estate of manhood, to become Gods like unto our Father in heaven. That is the truth about it, just as it is" (Journal of Discourses 3:93).
Mormon Apostle James Talmage wrote:
"We believe in a God who is Himself progressive, whose majesty is intelligence; whose perfection consists in eternal advancement -- a Being who has attained His exalted state by a path which now His children are permitted to follow, whose glory it is their heritage to share" (The Articles of Faith, p. 430).
Mormon Apostle Orson Pratt explains:
"Each God, through his wife or wives, raises up a numerous family of sons and daughters; indeed, there will be no end to the increase of his own children: for each father and mother will be in a condition to multiply forever and ever. As soon as each God has begotten many millions of male and female spirits, and his Heavenly inheritance becomes too small, to comfortably accommodate his great family, he, in connection with his sons, organizes a new world, after a similar order to the one which we now inhabit, where he sends both the male and female spirits to inhabit tabernacles of flesh and bones. Thus each God forms a world for the accommodation of his own sons and daughters who are sent forth in their times and seasons, and generations to be born into the same. The inhabitants of each world are required to reverence, adore, and worship their own personal father who dwells in the Heaven which they formerly inhabited" (The Seer, p. 37).
Following the revelations he received, Joseph Smith taught with authority many truths recorded in the Bible which previously had not been understood. Some of these are: that we are spirit children of God, that we had a pre-mortal existence, that we are in mortality to prove ourselves, and that if we are faithful we can return to live eternally in the presence of God and through eternal progression become Godlike,” (N. Eldon Tanner, “The Contributions of the Prophet Joseph Smith,” Ensign (Conference Edition), November 1979, p.52).
• "The principal purpose of the gospel of Jesus Christ and the ultimate goal of eternal progression is to receive eternal life, i.e., to become as God is. It is thoroughly understood, however, that a vast majority of the human family will never become gods, because to do so they must accept the true gospel, receive all of the ordinances-including celestial marriage-and obey all of God's commandments faithfully to the end," (Milton R. Hunter, Christ in Ancient America, p.168).
Joseph Smith: June 16, 1844 sermon he said:
I will preach on the plurality of Gods. . . . Our text says "And hath made us kings and priests unto God and His Father." The Apostles have discovered that there were Gods above, for Paul says God was the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. (History of the Church, vol. 6, p. 474)
• Joseph Smith: According to that which was ordained in the midst of the Council of the Eternal God of all other gods before this world was, ... (Doctrine and Covenants 121:32)

• In 1842 Joseph Smith began the publication of his Book of Abraham which has a number of references to plural gods. For example, Abraham 4:1 states
• ...they, that is the Gods, organized and formed the heavens and the earth.
Joseph Smith- In the Doctrine and Covenants, section 130, verse 22, we read:
The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man's; the Son also; but the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit.
Joseph Smith: "These are the first principles of consolation. ... To inherit the same power, the same glory and the same exaltation, until you arrive at the station of a god, and ascend the throne of eternal power, the same as those who have gone before. What did Jesus do? Why, I do the things I saw my Father do when worlds came rolling into existence. My Father worked out His kingdom with fear and trembling, and I must do the same; and when I get my kingdom, I shall present it to My Father, so that He may obtain kingdom upon kingdom, and it will exalt Him in glory. He will then take a higher exaltation, and I will take His place, and thereby become exalted myself. (History of the Church, vol. 6, p. 306)

Pretty clear to me.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

U. So what does this news mean to your implication that it's a defense of one's false religion, if one states that you can't make conclusions about person's integrity unless you know him?

We know a lot about Joseph and his life based on extensive writings from Joseph himself and those around him. You aren't given the same luxury with jdj so your comparison doesn't hold water. But you will do everything you can to defend your false religion.

[jdjhere]

"Joseph Smith to his last breathe claimed that what he did was from God Himself because, after all, that was what God Himself had done as an exalted man! "

Here is your quote nrajeffreturns since you seem to think you need one-
Joseph Smith: "These are the first principles of consolation. ... To inherit the same power, the same glory and the same exaltation, until you arrive at the station of a god, and ascend the throne of eternal power, the same as those who have gone before." (Eternal Progression of the gods.)

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by jdjhere

"Joseph Smith to his last breathe claimed that what he did was from God Himself because, after all, that was what God Himself had done as an exalted man! "

Here is your quote nrajeffreturns since you seem to think you need one-
Joseph Smith: "These are the first principles of consolation. ... To inherit the same power, the same glory and the same exaltation, until you arrive at the station of a god, and ascend the throne of eternal power, the same as those who have gone before." (Eternal Progression of the gods.)

How can you not see that your quote does NOT support your claim that Joseph Smith TAUGHT that what he did...was what God Himself had done as an exalted man? To be specific, polygamy. You have yet to provide a quote of Smith saying "God Himself, as an exalted man, got married to multiple wives."

Maybe I am misunderstanding what you're referring to when you talk about "what Smith had done" when you say he taught that God, as an exalted man, had done the same things.

So why don't you give your list of specific "things that Smith did" that you think he said God had, as an exalted man, also done?

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by jdjhere

Joseph Smith: These are the first principles of consolation. ... To inherit the same power, the same glory and the same exaltation, until you arrive at the station of a god, and ascend the throne of eternal power, the same as those who have gone before. What did Jesus do? Why, I do the things I saw my Father do when worlds came rolling into existence. My Father worked out His kingdom with fear and trembling, and I must do the same; and when I get my kingdom, I shall present it to My Father, so that He may obtain kingdom upon kingdom, and it will exalt Him in glory. He will then take a higher exaltation, and I will take His place, and thereby become exalted myself. (History of the Church, vol. 6, p. 306)

I hope you aren't thinking that Smith is talking about HIMSELF in that part where he says

"Why, I do the things I saw my Father do when worlds came rolling into existence. My Father worked out His kingdom with fear and trembling, and I must do the same; and when I get my kingdom, I shall present it to My Father, so that He may obtain kingdom upon kingdom, and it will exalt Him in glory. He will then take a higher exaltation, and I will take His place, and thereby become exalted myself."

That part is what he imagines Jesus would say in answer to the question "What did Jesus do?"

[jdjhere]

nrajeffreturns- I am not as concerned with that part as I know he is talking about what Jesus would do. I am more concerened with the first part of the statement that says; Joseph Smith: "These are the first principles of consolation. ... To inherit the same power, the same glory and the same exaltation, until you arrive at the station of a god, and ascend the throne of eternal power, the same as those (plural) who have gone before."

As an LDS I would like to hear what you think Joseph is saying here. Thanks.

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by jdjhere

nrajeffreturns- I am not as concerned with that part as I know he is talking about what Jesus would do. I am more concerened with the first part of the statement that says; Joseph Smith: "These are the first principles of consolation. ... To inherit the same power, the same glory and the same exaltation, until you arrive at the station of a god, and ascend the throne of eternal power, the same as those (plural) who have gone before."

But all that's saying is that we have the potential to become like God. I see NOTHING in there about "I'm marrying wives because God, as an exalted man, did that very same thing."

So it looks like it's Strike Three for you.

[jdjhere]

nrajeffreturns stated: "So it looks like it's Strike Three for you. "

No strikes. Lets forget the baseball ****ogy. It states "you arrive at the station of A GOD." and you get ETERNAL POWER. It is saying you can become a god.

nrajeffreturns stated: "But all that's saying is that we have the potential to become like God."

Again, No. It states "you arrive at the station of A GOD." and you get ETERNAL POWER. It is saying you can become a god." (the same as those (plural) who have gone before."

In 1842, Joseph Smith began the publication of his Book of Abraham which has a number of references to plural gods. For example, Abraham 4:1 states "they, that is, the Gods, organized and formed the heavens and the earth."

nrajeffreturns stated: "But all that's saying is that we have the potential to become like God."

You mean like this?
Isaiah 14:14 "I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High". (satan)
2 Thessalonians 2:4 "He (satan)will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God."
Ezekiel 28:2 "Son of man, say to the ruler of Tyre, 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: "'In the PRIDE of your heart you say, "I am a god; I sit on the throne of a god in the heart of the seas." But you are a mere mortal and not a god, though you think you are as wise as a god."
Isaiah 14:12-15 "How you have fallen from heaven, morning star, son of the dawn! (satan) You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations! You said in your heart,“I will ascend to the heavens; I will raise my throne above the stars of God; I will sit enthroned on the mount of ***embly, on the utmost heights of Mount Zaphon. I will ascend above the tops of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High." But you are brought down to the realm of the dead, to the depths of the pit."
Ezekiel 28:17: “Your heart became proud on account of your beauty, and you corrupted your wisdom because of your splendor.” (satan)
Rev 12:9 "So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the devil and satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him."
Philippians 2:5-8: “Your at***ude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus: Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped..."

God is the Creator and we are the created, Jeff. Even in the afterlife this is so. He is INFINITE PERFECTION and, as created beings, we will never be that.

[jdjhere]

Just to be clear, other LDS "prophets" have claimed the same thing:

Speaking in the Tabernacle on August 8, 1852, Brigham Young stated,
"The Lord created you and me for the purpose of becoming Gods like Himself; when we have been proved in our present capacity, and been faithful with all things He puts into our possession. We are created, we are born for the express purpose of growing up from the low estate of manhood, to become Gods like unto our Father in heaven. That is the truth about it, just as it is" (Journal of Discourses 3:93).
Mormon Apostle James Talmage wrote:
"We believe in a God who is Himself progressive, whose majesty is intelligence; whose perfection consists in eternal advancement -- a Being who has attained His exalted state by a path which now His children are permitted to follow, whose glory it is their heritage to share" (The Articles of Faith, p. 430).
Mormon Apostle Orson Pratt explains:
"Each God, through his wife or wives, raises up a numerous family of sons and daughters; indeed, there will be no end to the increase of his own children: for each father and mother will be in a condition to multiply forever and ever. As soon as each God has begotten many millions of male and female spirits, and his Heavenly inheritance becomes too small, to comfortably accommodate his great family, he, in connection with his sons, organizes a new world, after a similar order to the one which we now inhabit, where he sends both the male and female spirits to inhabit tabernacles of flesh and bones. Thus each God forms a world for the accommodation of his own sons and daughters who are sent forth in their times and seasons, and generations to be born into the same. The inhabitants of each world are required to reverence, adore, and worship their own personal father who dwells in the Heaven which they formerly inhabited" (The Seer, p. 37).
Following the revelations he received, Joseph Smith taught with authority many truths recorded in the Bible which previously had not been understood. Some of these are: that we are spirit children of God, that we had a pre-mortal existence, that we are in mortality to prove ourselves, and that if we are faithful we can return to live eternally in the presence of God and through eternal progression become Godlike,” (N. Eldon Tanner, “The Contributions of the Prophet Joseph Smith,” Ensign (Conference Edition), November 1979, p.52).
• "The principal purpose of the gospel of Jesus Christ and the ultimate goal of eternal progression is to receive eternal life, i.e., to become as God is. It is thoroughly understood, however, that a vast majority of the human family will never become gods, because to do so they must accept the true gospel, receive all of the ordinances-including celestial marriage-and obey all of God's commandments faithfully to the end," (Milton R. Hunter, Christ in Ancient America, p.168).
Joseph Smith: June 16, 1844 sermon he said:
I will preach on the plurality of Gods. . . . Our text says "And hath made us kings and priests unto God and His Father." The Apostles have discovered that there were Gods above, for Paul says God was the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. (History of the Church, vol. 6, p. 474)
Joseph Smith: According to that which was ordained in the midst of the Council of the Eternal God of all other gods before this world was, ... (Doctrine and Covenants 121:32)
Joseph Smith- In the Doctrine and Covenants, section 130, verse 22, we read:
The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man's; the Son also; but the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit.
Joseph Smith: These are the first principles of consolation. ... To inherit the same power, the same glory and the same exaltation, until you arrive at the station of a god, and ascend the throne of eternal power, the same as those who have gone before. What did Jesus do? Why, I do the things I saw my Father do when worlds came rolling into existence. My Father worked out His kingdom with fear and trembling, and I must do the same; and when I get my kingdom, I shall present it to My Father, so that He may obtain kingdom upon kingdom, and it will exalt Him in glory. He will then take a higher exaltation, and I will take His place, and thereby become exalted myself. (History of the Church, vol. 6, p. 306)

They get it from Joseph Smith. Follow the "prophet."

[nrajeffreturns]

I see NOTHING in there about "I'm marrying wives because God, as an exalted man, did that very same thing."

So it looks like it's Strike 4 for you.

[jdjhere]

OK, so? It is CLEARLY taught .... and could you please explain to us why Joseph Smith took all these wives or concubines or whatever it is he called them and explain to us why Brigham Young taught that plural marriage MUST be entered into to get into the celestial heaven- "The only men who become Gods, even the sons of God, are those who enter into polygamy" (Journal of Discourses 11:269 Aug. 19, 1866)

By the way....Did Orson Pratt lie then?

Mormon Apostle Orson Pratt explains:
"Each God (plural), through his wife or wives (plural), raises up a numerous family of sons and daughters; indeed, there will be no end to the increase of his own children: for each father and mother will be in a condition to multiply forever and ever. As soon as each God has begotten many millions of male and female spirits, and his Heavenly inheritance becomes too small, to comfortably accommodate his great family, he, in connection with his sons, organizes a new world, after a similar order to the one which we now inhabit, where he sends both the male and female spirits to inhabit tabernacles of flesh and bones. Thus each God (plural) forms a world for the accommodation of his own sons and daughters who are sent forth in their times and seasons, and generations to be born into the same. The inhabitants of each world are required to reverence, adore, and worship their own personal father who dwells in the Heaven which they formerly inhabited" (The Seer, p. 37).

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

I see NOTHING in there about "I'm marrying wives because God, as an exalted man, did that very same thing."

So it looks like it's Strike 4 for you.

I would say that you have fouled out. It is clear from all mormon doctrine that God is married and even a polygamist. It is clear that even the virgin Mary was considered one of God's wives by an Apostle of the LDS church.. You are very thin ice of truthfulness and about ready to break through by this denial.. IHS jim

[jdjhere]

Funny... I don't even play baseball.

Its a slight of hand in the beliefs arena, James. Re-write history... deny "prophets" said certain things, even things recorded by LDS scribes (King Follett Discourse)... deny things clearly taught AND practiced. Amazing.

nrajeffreturns- Could you please explain these things that were said or taught then? You just keep asking for something I believe I have already given you and you just keep saying "nuh-uh" to all the quotes I have given you to what your "prophets" have stated or taught. Could you please give us some explanations of some of these verses then?

Let's start with this one- "Mormon Apostle Orson Pratt explains:

"Each God (plural), through his wife or wives (plural), raises up a numerous family of sons and daughters; indeed, there will be no end to the increase of his own children: for each father and mother will be in a condition to multiply forever and ever. As soon as each God (plural) has begotten many millions of male and female spirits, and his Heavenly inheritance becomes too small, to comfortably accommodate his great family, he, in connection with his sons, organizes a new world, after a similar order to the one which we now inhabit, where he sends both the male and female spirits to inhabit tabernacles of flesh and bones. Thus each God (plural) forms a world for the accommodation of his own sons and daughters who are sent forth in their times and seasons, and generations to be born into the same. The inhabitants of each world are required to reverence, adore, and worship their own personal father who dwells in the Heaven which they formerly inhabited" (The Seer, p. 37)

What did Orson Pratt mean by this above statement??

Thanks.

[nrajeffreturns]

JD, you are going further and further AWAY from supporting your original claim. Now you're appealing to something that Orson Pratt said, as proof that Joseph Smith taught it.

I guess you aren't aware that Orson Pratt was a loose cannon who said a lot of stuff that was his own personal speculation and opinion, and was so NOT LDS doctrine that he was kicked out as an apostle, and had to make public APOLOGIES and confessions that his opinions and speculations were out of line and should NOT be ***umed to be church doctrines.

Plus, I didn't see where even Pratt said that JOSEPH SMITH taught "I'm marrying wives because God, as an exalted man, did that very same thing."

Remember? Your claim is that Joseph Smith taught it. Not that some of his apostles, or successors seem to have taught it.

Strike 5.

[jdjhere]

Ok. So, Orson Pratt is "out" as an apostle then. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orson_Pratt Thats one down. Tell me... WHO can be trusted in the LDS church as to their apostleship, prophetship, etc. How about Mormon Apostle James Talmage?:
"We believe in a God who is Himself progressive, whose majesty is intelligence; whose perfection consists in eternal advancement (this is an oxymoron)-- a Being who has attained His exalted state by a path which now His children are permitted to follow, whose glory it is their heritage to share" (The Articles of Faith, p. 430).

Explain this verse. Is James Talmage a loose cannon as well?

nrajeffstated: "Your claim is that Joseph Smith taught it."

I not only claim that he taught it but I also claim that he LIVED it. His wives / concubines and statements prove it. You are denying history and your "prophets" own statements. Yeah yeah yeah... I know... strike 6. Whatever.

Following the revelations he received, Joseph Smith taught with authority many truths recorded in the Bible which previously had not been understood. Some of these are: that we are spirit children of God, that we had a pre-mortal existence, that we are in mortality to prove ourselves, and that if we are faithful we can return to live eternally in the presence of God and through eternal progression become Godlike,” (N. Eldon Tanner, “The Contributions of the Prophet Joseph Smith,” Ensign (Conference Edition), November 1979, p.52).

Is N. Eldon Tanner a "rogue" apostle as well?

Joseph Smith: June 16, 1844 sermon:
"I will preach on the plurality of Gods. . . . Our text says "And hath made us kings and priests unto God and His Father." The Apostles have discovered that there were Gods above, for Paul says God was the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. (History of the Church, vol. 6, p. 474)
Joseph Smith: According to that which was ordained in the midst of the Council of the Eternal God of all other gods before this world was, ... (Doctrine and Covenants 121:32)
Joseph Smith- In the Doctrine and Covenants, section 130, verse 22, we read:
The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man's; the Son also; but the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit.
Joseph Smith: These are the first principles of consolation. ... To inherit the same power, the same glory and the same exaltation, until you arrive at the station of a god, and ascend the throne of eternal power, the same as those who have gone before. What did Jesus do? Why, I do the things I saw my Father do when worlds came rolling into existence. My Father worked out His kingdom with fear and trembling, and I must do the same; and when I get my kingdom, I shall present it to My Father, so that He may obtain kingdom upon kingdom, and it will exalt Him in glory. He will then take a higher exaltation, and I will take His place, and thereby become exalted myself. (History of the Church, vol. 6, p. 306)

In 1842 Joseph Smith began the publication of his Book of Abraham which has a number of references to plural gods. For example, Abraham 4:1 states
...they, that is, the Gods, organized and formed the heavens and the earth.

[jdjhere]

Apostle LeGrand Richards (1886 - 1983):
“Your third question: ‘Is the Adam-God Doctrine, as taught in the Journal of Discourses, true?’ Answer: No.”
- Apostle LeGrand Richards, Letter, dated May 11, 1966; online at http://www.utlm.org/onlinebooks/changech8.htm

Apostle Bruce R. McConkie (1915 - 1985):

“Yes, President Young did teach that Adam was the Father of our spirits, and all the related things that the cultists ascribe to him. This however, is not true. He expressed views that are out of harmony with the gospel.... Wise gospel students do not build their philosophies of life on the quotations of individuals, even though those quotations come from presidents of the Church.”
- Apostle Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Apostle, “Letter to Mr. Eugene England,” dated Feb. 19, 1981; online at http://home.teleport.com/~packham/contra.htm

Wow! Who CAN YOU believe then?? I thought these guys were living prophets on earth?

[jdjhere]

http://www.ldslearning.org/heavenlymother.htm Interesting page that goes along with eternal progression and mother gods existence. Just one more confusing teaching in the LDS church.

nrajeffreturns, do you believe Jesus had a wife (or wives) and children?

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by jdjhere

http://www.ldslearning.org/heavenlymother.htm Interesting page that goes along with eternal progression and mother gods existence. Just one more confusing teaching in the LDS church.

nrajeffreturns, do you believe Jesus had a wife (or wives) and children?

According to Brigham Young we could have entered exaltation without being a polygamist, or at least being a polygamist in His heart.. So I guess all believing LDS would have to say "Yes, Jesus was married and had children".. IHS jim

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by jdjhere

nrajeffreturns, do you believe Jesus had a wife (or wives) and children?

I see nothing in the scriptures that say that Jesus, as a mortal, had any children, so my belief is "no" in that regard. As for a wife, there is a little evidence for that claim, and zero evidence against, but I haven't decided one way or another. I am keeping an open mind until more evidence is there to consider.

Now that I have answered, how does my answer help you support your claim that Joseph Smith taught that by having multiple wives AS A MORTAL, he was doing the same thing that God, as an exalted man, had done?

[RealFakeHair]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

I see nothing in the scriptures that say that Jesus, as a mortal, had any children, so my belief is "no" in that regard. As for a wife, there is a little evidence for that claim, and zero evidence against, but I haven't decided one way or another. I am keeping an open mind until more evidence is there to consider.

Now that I have answered, how does my answer help you support your claim that Joseph Smith taught that by having multiple wives AS A MORTAL, he was doing the same thing that God, as an exalted man, had done?

Another luke warm mormon here. lol
Man up and believe all of what your prophet said!

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by RealFakeHair

Another luke warm mormon here. lol
Man up and believe all of what your prophet said!

Don't you mean "Man up and believe all that us antis believe your prophet said" ???

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

Don't you mean "Man up and believe all that us antis believe your prophet said" ???

Jeff what your prophets have said is written in plain English. Why not accept what they have said?

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Jeff what your prophets have said is written in plain English. Why not accept what they have said?

The Bible is written in plain English, too, yet people have been arguing over what their intended meaning is for almost as long as there has been an English language.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

The Bible is written in plain English, too, yet people have been arguing over what their intended meaning is for almost as long as there has been an English language.

The problem is that you don't believe that the Bible is the word of God as written--rather you believe the LDS lie that large sections have been ripped out and the text that we have today have been corrupted by evil men.