Why I like this forum so much

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by Billyray

The problem is that you don't believe that the Bible is the word of God as written--r.

...as written by WHO? The original authors? Or as it currently exists? I believe that what the original authors wrote was inspired and doctrinally correct. I believe that TODAY'S Bible is inspired and doctrinally correct wherever it has stayed true to what the original authors intended their words to mean.

So I agree, essentially, with the Chicago Statement on Biblical Inerrancy to a large degree, I think.

Is that a problem?

[jdjhere]

Joseph Smith, History of the Church, 6:303-304

"I want to ask this congregation, every man, woman and child, to answer the question in their own heart, what kind of a being God is? ... Does any man or woman know? Have any of you seen him, heard him, or communed with him? . . . God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens! That is the great secret. If the veil were rent today, and the great God who holds this world in its orbit, and who upholds all worlds and all things by his power, was to make Himself visible, I say -- if you were to see Him today, you would see Him like a man in form -- like yourselves in all the person, image, and very form as a man; for Adam was created in the very fashion, image and likeness of God, and received instruction from, and walked, talked and conversed with Him, as one man talks and communes with another.... It is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the Character of God, and to know that we may converse with him as one man converses with another, and that He was once a man like us; yea, that God Himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ himself did; and I will show it from the Bible."

Ok, so God the Father was once a man… yes, nrajeffreturns??

Joseph Smith: These are the first principles of consolation. ... To inherit the same power, the same glory and the same exaltation, until you arrive at the station of a god, and ascend the throne of eternal power, the same as those who have gone before. (History of the Church, vol. 6, p. 306)

nrajeffreturns: Who are these "same as those who have gone before" Joseph is referencing here?

Brigham Young taught it as well, and where did he get the idea from?
"If you have in your hearts to say…'we will not, therefore, be polygamists lest we should fail in obtaining some earthly honor, character and office, etc,"-the man that has that in his heart, and will continue to persist in pursuing that policy, will come short of dwelling in the presence of the Father and the Son, in celestial glory. The only men who become Gods, even the Sons of God, are those who enter into polygamy. Others attain unto a glory and may even be permitted to come into the presence of the Father and the Son; but they cannot reign as kings in glory, because they had blessing offered unto them, and they refused to accept them. The Lord gave a revelation through Joseph Smith, His servant; and we have believed and practiced it. -Journal of Discourses 11:269 (Aug. 19, 1866)

nrajeffreturns: How are you with Milton R. Hunter?

"The principal purpose of the gospel of Jesus Christ and the ultimate goal of eternal progression is to receive eternal life, i.e., to become as God is. It is thoroughly understood, however, that a vast majority of the human family will never become gods, because to do so they must accept the true gospel, receive all of the ordinances-including celestial marriage-and obey all of God's commandments faithfully to the end," (Milton R. Hunter, Christ in Ancient America, p.168).


Post #130 (nrajeffreturns stated) "How can you not see that your quote does NOT support your claim that Joseph Smith TAUGHT that what he did…"
If Joseph DID this you don't think he taught it by example??

nrajeffreturns- Why would Brigham practice polygamy if Joseph ever retracted it or never taught it? Was Brigham Young a "loose cannon" as well? Did he just come up with this idea on his own then? Historical evidence (historical writings) show JS as being a polygamist, even Emma being upset about it and God threatening to "destroy her" if she did not accept it. We have a list of concubines. We have other apostles in the LDS church teaching it or practicing it. We have splinter groups we still see today following more closely what Joseph Smith DID than the LDS church does.

I don't see how you can honestly or logically deny this, nrajeffreturns.

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

The Bible is written in plain English, too, yet people have been arguing over what their intended meaning is for almost as long as there has been an English language.

Ask any Believing Bible scholar of any sect.. The message of God is the same to all.. All who believe it's message.. To the doubters and the cultists it is contradictory, with many changes over the years.. I know you believe the Bible to be inaccurate so which do you see yourself as a doubter of a cultist? IHS jim

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Yes, we all sin---all this knowledge of James sin did was teach me a little bit about him. It actually gives me more comp***ion for him. I understand that he has experienced some far greater trouble than I had realized.

This I also know with a surety. Had he stayed in the church and stayed close to the Spirit, this would not have happened. As I noted, those "feelings' that are often looked so down on by those here--those feelings have the capacity to guide and direct one back to God (such as guilt) and take away any desire to sin because when God touches our heart, it does more than any intellectual understanding of God can do. God is not just found in the page of a book--He is found within us when we seek Him. James could have spared his wife the pain I am sure she felt.

My sin was 10 years ago Julie without a reoccurrence.. I have confessed it, I have taken it to God, I had to take my humps over it as well. I lost a lot during that time. I deserved to lose a lot more but by God's grace I was forgiven.. Seems the only people now that hold this sin against me committed so long ago are either those with an agenda to so how evil someone is when they leave mormonism or disbelieve the Bible about what God does with sin of which we repent.. Disbelievers and haters.. Which one of those are you siding with Julie?

Rev 12:10
And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

Seems that after I had repented and that is shown by the fact that no further sin has sprung up in me that the only one left to accuse me before God is Satan.. Who are you willing to side with here Jesus who was crucified shedding His blood that I might gain forgiveness or Satan who still accuses me before God even up to the day when he will finally be cast down? Will you trust in repentance as shown in the word of God or ally with Satan in your continued accusation of those Jesus died to forgive? Most of the LDS here have determined that being allied with Satan in keeping the accusation in front and center is the right way to go..

While I will not run from the fact that I sinned, I will confess it to anyone who asks, it is not on the forefront of my mind any longer.. Old things have pasted away Jesus has made everything New.. Go ahead and deny that, I won't judge you by what you have done, but I will by what you are doing.. If you insist on being allied with Satan I will see you as being his child..

No one in the LDS church has ever committed such a sin now have they?

Albert Carrington, who once named to the church hierarchy used his authority to seduce far younger women, including British converts barely out of their teens. Despite allegations stretching back a decade, Carrington escaped punishment until one of his mistresses confessed the sexual escapades to her new husband. ( Doug Gibson , Ogden Standard-Examiner March 19, 2012)

Yes that was a while ago and yet since that time there have been other men of lesser prominence that have found themselves chained by sexual sin, bishops, stake presidents, missionaries.. All members in good standing when they sinned and yet I sinned only because I left mormonism.. I sinned because I was weak and allowed my flesh to overrule my spirit.. I know your emotion want to deny that "Good" LDS people can sin but the facts are that they can and do sin.. Most are not as forthcoming as I have been about it.. When I was asked. I didn't lie but confessed it even those you and your people.. That is rare inside mormonism.. IHS jim

IHS jim

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by jdjhere

Ok, so God the Father was once a man… yes, nrajeffreturns??

Just like His Son, according to the Bible. Jesus was once mortal, but is now immortal, & glorified. How does that help you support your claim that Joseph Smith taught that by having multiple wives, he was doing the same thing God, as an exalted man, had done?

You know the answer: IT DOESN'T.

nrajeffreturns: Who are these "same as those who have gone before" Joseph is referencing here?

They are other beings who started out as mortals, but who inherited eternal life and thus were deified.
But how does that help you support your claim that Joseph Smith taught that by having multiple wives, he was doing the same thing God, as an exalted man, had done?

You know the answer: IT DOESN'T.

Brigham Young taught it as well, and where did he get the idea from?

He had his own thoughts and ideas and opinions. Using your logic, the stuff Isaiah taught had to also be the stuff that Moses taught, because, well, if he didn't get it Moses, then where did he get his ideas from?

nrajeffreturns: How are you with Milton R. Hunter?
I like him. I agree with some of his scholarship. I have at least one copy of the book you're about to cite. But how does M. Hunter's statement help you support your claim that Joseph Smith taught that by having multiple wives, he was doing the same thing God, as an exalted man, had done?

You know the answer: IT DOESN'T.

"The principal purpose of the gospel of Jesus Christ and the ultimate goal of eternal progression is to receive eternal life, i.e., to become as God is. It is thoroughly understood, however, that a vast majority of the human family will never become gods, because to do so they must accept the true gospel, receive all of the ordinances-including celestial marriage-and obey all of God's commandments faithfully to the end," (Milton R. Hunter, Christ in Ancient America, p.168).
Celestial marriage is marriage that lasts beyond death. It's not necessarily POLYGAMY. My wife and I were married under the ordinance of celestial marriage, where if we are both faithful to Christ's commandments, we stay married even after we die. No one said "Oh, you also have to be polygamists, too."

If Joseph DID this you don't think he taught it by example??

How does that help you support your claim that Joseph Smith taught that by having multiple wives, he was doing the same thing God, as an exalted man, had done?

You know the answer: IT DOESN'T.

nrajeffreturns- Why would Brigham practice polygamy if Joseph ever retracted it or never taught it?

Only 20% of LDS men ever had multiple wives. Joseph Smith never taught that everyone was required to be polygamists. But that is irrelevant to your problem, because what you're supposed to be proving is that Joseph Smith taught that by having multiple wives, he was doing the same thing God, as an exalted man, had done, and are you proving that?

You know the answer: No.

Was Brigham Young a "loose cannon" as well?

Most people think he was occasionally, as do I. He was free to express his opinion on any number of issues, such as whether the Sun is inhabited.

Did he just come up with this idea on his own then?

Wait, you're getting ahead of yourself. Have you shown that Brigham Young taught that by having multiple wives, he was doing the same thing God, as an exalted man, had done?

You know the answer.

Historical evidence (historical writings) show JS as being a polygamist, even Emma being upset about it and God threatening to "destroy her" if she did not accept it.

Yes, so what?

We have a list of concubines.

We do? Who are these concubines?

We have other apostles in the LDS church teaching it or practicing it. We have splinter groups we still see today following more closely what Joseph Smith DID than the LDS church does.

You have those people teaching that by having multiple wives, they are doing the same thing God, as an exalted man, had done?

When do you plan to provide the quotes to support that claim?

I don't see how you can honestly or logically deny this, nrajeffreturns.

I do so quite easily, since you have yet to provide any real evidence that supports your actual claim.

[jdjhere]

Post #154 (JamesBanta) "No one in the LDS church has ever committed such a sin now have they?"

Joseph Smith- at least 29 girls (and some LDS claim he only had ONE wife (Emma) who was irrate about the whole matter but was told she would be "destroyed" if she did not accept all them that "god" gave to Joseph.
Emma Hale (Smith)
Jan. 17, 1827 The only woman to be legally wed to Joseph Smith, Jr. and whom he claimed publicly was his only spouse. Continued church activity within the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Throughout life and on her deathbed denied Joseph Smith, Jr. had plural wives. Claimed that the very first time she ever became aware of a polygamy revelation being attributed to Joseph Smith was when she read about it in Orson Pratt's booklet The Seer in 1853.
Fanny Alger
Early 1833 According to George D. Smith, Alger's marriage to Smith was attested to by several people, including Emma Smith, Warren Parish, Oliver Cowdery, and Heber C. Kimball. Compton cites Mosiah Han****'s handwritten report of his father Levi's account of the marriage ceremony of Smith and Alger, and records his father's account of negotiations between Levi and Smith in procuring their respective wives. Compton also notes that nineteenth-century Mormons in Utah, including Benjamin Johnson, Heber C. Kimball and Andrew Jenson, and former Mormons Chauncey Webb and Ann Eliza Webb Young, regarded the Smith-Alger relationship as a marriage. Historian Lawrence Foster ***erts a claim that later Mormons may have falsely ***umed there was a marriage where there was only a sexual relationship: he views the marriage of Alger to Joseph Smith as "debatable supposition" rather than "established fact".
Lucinda Pendleton Morgan Harris Historians Richard Lloyd Anderson and Scott H. Faulring dismiss this claim as being based on "no solid evidence". Compton L notes the following evidence: she is the third woman on Andrew Jenson's 1887 list of Joseph Smith's plural wives; Compton writes that "Sarah Pratt reported that while in Nauvoo Lucinda had admitted a long-standing relationship with Smith"; and that there is an "early Nauvoo temple proxy sealing to Smith...." This marriage was [U]polyandrous, as Lucinda lived with her then husband George Washington Harris until about 1853. Compton believes the marriage occurred around 1838, when Smith was living with Lucinda and her husband.
Louisa Beaman
Apr. 5, 1841 Single (February 7, 1815 - May 16, 1850). Though Mormon history and press indicate Beaman was not baptized until May 11, 1843, she had migrated with Mormons to Nauvoo in 1839 or 1840. She has been called the "first plural wife of the Prophet Joseph Smith." After Smith's death, Beaman remarried, becoming the ninth wife of [U]Brigham Young. They had five children together, all of whom predeceased Beaman, who died young at age 35. Listed as a Smith plural wife by Joseph F. Smith, who noted 1869 affidavit of Beaman's brother-in-law Joseph B. Noble, stating he officiated at the wedding, William Clayton said Smith told him in February 1843 that Beaman was one of his plural wives. This would have been prior to her baptism.
Zina Diantha Huntington (Jacobs)
Oct. 27, 1841 Husband was Henry Bailey Jacobs, who was aware of Zina's plural marriage to Smith. Jacobs wrote, "Whatever the Prophet did was right, without making the wisdom of God's authorities bend to the reasoning of any man." (Compton 1997, pp. 81–82) Sister of Presendia Huntington. After Smith's death, married Brigham Young while husband Jacobs was on mission to England.
Presendia Lathrop Huntington (Buell)
Dec. 11, 1841 (7 September 1810 in Watertown, New York - 1 February 1892 in Salt Lake City, Utah) Sister of Zina. After Smith's death, married Heber C. Kimball.
Agnes Moulton Coolbrith
Jan. 6, 1842 Single Widow of Smith's brother Don Carlos. (1808–1876). After Don Carlos died in 1841, Coolbrith married Joseph in 1842. Coolbrith was the mother of Ina Coolbrith, who became the first poet laureate of California.
Sylvia Porter Sessions Lyon
Feb. 8, 1842 Daughter of David Sessions and Patty Bartlett Sessions, who married Joseph Smith one month after her daughter's marriage to him. On her deathbed, Sylvia informed her daughter Josephine Lyons that she was Smith's daughter:
"Just prior to my mothers death in 1882 she called me to her bedside … to tell me something which she had kept as an entire secret from me and from all others but which she now desired to communicate to me. She then told me that I was the daughter of the Prophet Joseph Smith." (Newell & Avery 1994, pp. 44, Compton 1997, pp. 183)
Mary Elizabeth Rollins Lightner Jan. 17, 1842 (9 April 1818 in Lima, New York–17 December 1913 in Minersville, Utah) Claimed that Smith had a private conversation with her in 1831 when she was twelve years old,
[At age 12 in 1831], [Smith] told me about his great vision concerning me. He said I was the first woman God commanded him to take as a plural wife. … In 1834 he was commanded to take me for a Wife … [In 1842} I went forward and was sealed to him. Brigham Young performed the sealing … for time, and all Eternity. I did just as Joseph told me to do.
After Smith's death, she remarried, becoming the 24th plural wife of Brigham Young. They married in 1845 and she bore him no children.
Patty Bartlett (Sessions)
Mar. 9, 1842 47 (4 February 1795 in Bethel, Maine - 14 December 1893 in Bountiful, Utah). Her daughter Sylvia Porter Sessions Lyon, who had married Smith one month before, was present at Session's wedding to Smith.
Marinda Nancy Johnson (Hyde)
Apr. 1842
(28 June 1815 in Pomfret, Vermont - 24 March 1886 in Salt Lake City, Utah). Jon Krakauer wrote in Under the Banner of Heaven,
"In the summer of 1831 the Johnson family took Joseph and Emma Smith into their home as boarders, and soon thereafter the prophet purportedly bedded young Marinda. Unfortunately, the liaison did not go unnoticed, and a gang of indignant Ohioans—including a number of Mormons—resolved to ******** Joseph so that he would be disinclined to commit such acts of depravity in the future."
According to Anderson and Faulring, this claim is based on Bennett and "an ambiguous statement attributed to Sarah Pratt by the hostile journalist Wyl."
Emily Dow Partridge Mar. 4, 1843 Daughter of Edward Partridge and sister of Eliza. After Smith's death, she married Brigham Young. William Clayton listed her as one of Smith's wives married during the early May 1843 period.[41]
Eliza Maria PartridgeMar.8, 1843 Daughter of Edward Partridge and sister of Emily. Eliza married after Smith's death, to Amasa M. Lyman, who was already husband to Eliza's older sister, Caroline. William Clayton listed her as one of Smith's wives married during the early May 1843 period. Wrote about her plural marriage to Smith, "In the year 1842 President Joseph Smith sought an interview with me, and said, ‘I have a message for you, I have been commanded of God to take another wife, and you are the woman.' … He asked me if I believed him to be a Prophet of God. … He fully Explained to me the principle of plural or celestial marriage … that it would prove an everlasting blessing to my father's house. … [Joseph encouraged her to pray] 'that the grave would kindly receive me that I might find rest on the bosom of my dear [recently deceased] mother … Why Should I be chosen from among thy daughters, Father I am only a child in years and experience.' And thus I prayed in the agony of my soul. … [The marriage] was not a love matter—at least on my part it was not, but simply the giving up of myself as a sacrifice to establish that grand and glorious principle that God had revealed to the world."
Helen Mar Kimball May 1843 Daughter of Heber C. Kimball. At aged 14, Helen Mar Kimball wrote, "[My father] asked me if I would be sealed to Joseph … [Smith] said to me, ‘If you will take this step, it will ensure your eternal salvation & exaltation and that of your father's household & all of your kindred. This promise was so great that I willingly gave myself to purchase so glorious a reward. … [After the marriage] I felt quite sore over it … and thought myself an abused child, and that it was pardonable if I did murmur." William Clayton listed her as one of Smith's wives married during the early May 1843 period.
Desdemona FullmerJul. 1843 (6 October 1809 in Huntington, Pennsylvania - 9 February 1886 in Salt Lake City, Utah). William Clayton said Smith told him in February 1843 that Fullmer was one of his plural wives.
Olive Grey Frost Summer 1843 (24 July 1816 in Bethel, Maine - 6 October 1845 in Nauvoo, Illinois) After Smith's death, Frost would remarry, becoming the eighteenth plural wife of Brigham Young. They married in 1844, and she bore him no children.
Mary Ann Frost (Pratt) Summer 1843 (14 January 1809 in Groton, Vermont - 24 August 1891 in Pleasant Grove, Utah) Sister of Olive Grey Frost. First married to Nathan Stearns in 1831 but he died about 18 months later. Baptized into LDS Church in 1835 by David W. Patten. Married Parley Parker Pratt on 14 May 1837 in Kirtland, Ohio. Moved to Missouri and Nauvoo with Pratt. Went on mission trip with Pratt to England in 1840. Returned from England without Pratt and was divorced soon after Pratt's return. Emigrated with the Harmon Cutler Company to Utah Territory in 1852. She was accompanied by her daughter Olivia Pratt (b. 1841) and son Moroni Llewellyn Pratt (b. 1844). They settled in Pleasant Grove, Utah.

I believe it would be stretching it to call all these people liars. There are more to list but I ran out of characters for this page!

[jdjhere]

I truly believe that no matter what I give you or how much evidence is piled up on your head you just continue to put your head in the sand, nrajeffreturns. I believe even if you were alive when Joseph Smith was and walked in on him in the very act of this: (In 1838, Oliver Cowdery, one of the Three Witnesses to the Book of Mormon, claimed that the married Joseph Smith had "A dirty, nasty, filthy affair" with a young woman named Fanny Alger) that you would STILL deny it. I do not even HAVE to give you what you ask for (though I believe I already have) for you to not be backed into a corner and keep asking for something that is irrelevant. Your church is chalked FULL of prophets, apostles, presidents, etc... that claim things at the slightest whim while the LDS boasts of having "living prophets" and such, all the while the members stating you can only believe maybe HALF of what they say. You are a PERFECT example of this. Thank you for chatting and making anyone that sees our discussion realize this. Everybody KNOWS where RLDS, FLDS and other splinter groups came from and why they are polygamists and why they are doing it, because Joseph Smith said "the same as those who have gone before." (History of the Church, vol. 6, p. 306). Plural marriage, creating LDS spirits to inhabit bodies for progression, getting to the celestial heaven to become a "god" ALL started with the god that Joseph Smith preached, and that is why he said god was once a man. Good luck trying to convince anyone else of anything different.

"The principal purpose of the gospel of Jesus Christ and the ultimate goal of eternal progression is to receive eternal life, i.e., to become as God is. It is thoroughly understood, however, that a vast majority of the human family will never become gods, because to do so they must accept the true gospel, receive all of the ordinances-including celestial marriage-and obey all of God's commandments faithfully to the end," (Milton R. Hunter, Christ in Ancient America, p.168).

nrajeffreturns: "I like him. I agree with some of his scholarship."

How about his above statement?

[jdjhere]

Joseph Smith Jr History of the Church Chapter 6: 305-6 "and you have got to learn how to be gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all gods have done before you, namely, by going from one small degree to another, and from a small capacity to a great one; from grace to grace, from exaltation to exaltation, until you attain to the resurrection of the dead, and are able to dwell in everlasting burnings, and to sit in glory, as do those who sit enthroned in everlasting power."

Why are wives "sealed" to LDS men in the temple? nrajeffreturns, would you like to answer that since you said you are sealed to your current wife? Thanks.

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by jdjhere

Why are wives "sealed" to LDS men in the temple? nrajeffreturns, would you like to answer that since you said you are sealed to your current wife? Thanks.

Sure, but I think I already told you in a previous post, so I am just telling you again: Sealing means that as long as both you and your wife are faithful, and are obedient to the commandments, your marriage can outlast death. That's ***uming you WANT to stay married forever, of course. Some people would go nuts being married to their spouse for eternity. As for me, it sounds great.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

Sure, but I think I already told you in a previous post, so I am just telling you again: Sealing means that as long as both you and your wife are faithful, and are obedient to the commandments, your marriage can outlast death. That's ***uming you WANT to stay married forever, of course. Some people would go nuts being married to their spouse for eternity. As for me, it sounds great.

But Christ himself said that marriage ends at death. Another Mormon belief that contradicts the Bible.

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

Sure, but I think I already told you in a previous post, so I am just telling you again: Sealing means that as long as both you and your wife are faithful, and are obedient to the commandments, your marriage can outlast death. That's ***uming you WANT to stay married forever, of course. Some people would go nuts being married to their spouse for eternity. As for me, it sounds great.

We are told in the word that Love above all the other gifts of God is eternal. You love people, Good you will always love them.. If they share a faith with you in the God of the Bible you will always be with them. They will most likely have to be in second place as we will be in the arms of God experiencing His love first hand. Jesus tell us that those who are "worthy" of gaining that salvation are like the angels in heaven (Matthew 22:30).. They are not like mortal men.. Marriage in not continued into eternity..

Again you put a condition on salvation that no one can rise to.. NO ONE, not you, not me is obedient.. There are over 600 commandments given in the OT. Most of which are unknown to modern society. There are over 1,000 commandment given in the NT among which is a command to be perfect as the Father in Heaven is perfect. That isn't a commandment that say "Do your best" to be as perfect as He is. It is a commandment to BE AS PERFECT AS HE IS.. Do you keep that commandment? You have scoffed at me when I have shown you from the Bible that Jesus was made to be sin for us, that we might be made the righteousness of God in him (2 Corinthians 5:21).. He took all our sin to the cross suffering the penalty for sin in our place so we can enjoy the blessing of eternal life in His righteousness. In that way a believer keeps the commandment of Matthew 22:30, as they keep all the commandments of God, all in the righteousness imputed on them because of their faith in Jesus (Romans 4:22-24)..

Your desire to be married eternally is a pipe dream.. No where in the scripture is this spoken of as fact.. Jesus never taught it when it was brought up as a possibility Jesus said "You err not knowing the scripture or the power of God" Your desire of eternal marriage that "Sound Great" to you are the ways of a man, not the ways of God.. IHS jim

[jdjhere]

Ok, thanks for explaining your views again, nrajeffreturns. I appreciate the fact that you are here and open to dialogue. Please understand that even though at times I get very sarcastic and combative I have nothing against you personally. I don't even know you and you are probably a very nice person. I definitely do not consider you my enemy but just so there are no misunderstandings I DO consider false doctrine and the LDS church an enemy of God. I get VERY angry at THAT, and the Bible warns us to "contend for the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints." It is my responsibility as a Christian to warn you about this and I have tried to do that. We all have free choice to believe as we want and thank God we have that freedom. If you are correct (which I don't believe you are) I will settle for the 2nd or 3rd heaven in your beliefs. If I am correct (which I believe I am ) your very soul is at stake and I worry about that. Identification of who Jesus Christ is is critical. He is God incarnate and God does not change (Malachi 3:6 "For I am the LORD, I change not" and Hebrews 13:8 "Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever." There is ONLY one God and He is NOT an ever evolving Being- He is INFINITELY Holy, Righteous, Just and Good and has ALWAYS been God. There, I have said it and now the rest is up to you. Read the Bible ALONE for your search for God and pray while you read. That's all I can say about it.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

Billyray
The problem is that you don't believe that the Bible is the word of God as written

nrajeff
...as written by WHO? The original authors? Or as it currently exists?

As it currently exists.

[jdjhere]

As a sidenote, I never added this stuff for pre-existence of the soul or the mother-god theories:

Joseph Smith- “For I, the Lord God, created all things, of which I have spoken, spiritually, before they were naturally upon the face of the earth. . . . And I, the Lord God, had created all the children of men; and not yet a man to till the ground; for in heaven created I them; and there was not yet flesh upon the earth, neither in the water, neither in the air; But I, the Lord God, spake, and there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground. And I, the Lord God, formed man from the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul, the first flesh upon the earth, the first man also; nevertheless, all things were before created; but spiritually were they created and made according to my word.” (Book of Moses 3:5-7. June – October 1830) (emphasis added).

Nrajeffreturns, would you mind explaining the LDS view of why God would create spirits in heaven first without bodies? What is the reason for this in the LDS view?

"Now the Lord had shown unto me, Abraham, the intelligences that were organized before the world was; and among all these there were many of the noble and great ones; And God saw these souls that they were good, and he stood in the midst of them, and he said: These I will make my rulers; for he stood among those that were spirits, and he saw that they were good; and he said unto me: Abraham, thou art one of them; thou wast chosen before thou wast born. (Abraham 3:22-23).
Joseph taught in 1839, “The Father called all spirits before him at the creation of Man & organized them.”

But WHERE did these spirits come from and how were they "created?"

Heavenly Mother is absent in the visionary experiences of Book of Mormon and Old and New Testament Prophets. The only recorded visionary experience is related by Zebedee Coltrin and recorded in the journal of Abraham H. Cannon.
"One day the Prophet Joseph asked him [Coltrin] and Sidney Rigdon to accompany him into the woods to pray. When they had reached a secluded spot Joseph laid down on his back and stretched out his arms. He told the brethren to lie one on each arm, and then shut their eyes. After they had prayed he told them to open their eyes. They did so and saw a brilliant light surrounding a pedestal which seemed to rest on the earth. They closed their eyes and again prayed. They then saw, on opening them, the Father seated upon a throne; they prayed again and on looking saw the Mother also; after praying and looking the fourth time they saw the Savior added to the group.

O My Father, LDS hymn #292, refers to a mother in heaven. Oh, What Songs of the Heart, LDS hymn #286, refers to "heavenly parents". The Family: A Proclamation to the World mentions "heavenly parents". Various LDS curriculum materials refer to a Heavenly Mother. E.g.: The Latter Day Saint Women, Lesson 9; "Chapter 2: Our Heavenly Family", Gospel Principles, 11 (1997); Spencer W. Kimball, "The True Way of Life and Salvation", Ensign, May 1978, 4.

"O My Father" (originally "My Father in Heaven", also "Invocation, or The Eternal Father and Mother) is a Latter-day Saint hymn written by Eliza R. Snow, who felt inspired to write the lyrics after Joseph Smith had taught her the principle of heavenly parents. The hymn is significant in terms of Mormon theology in that it is one of the few direct references to a "Heavenly Mother" in materials published by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
After discussing pre-mortal existence and a sense of belonging to "a more exalted sphere" in heaven, stanza three reasons that if there is an eternal Father there must also be an eternal Mother:

"I had learned to call thee Father, Through thy Spirit from on high,
But until the key of knowledge Was restored, I knew not why.
In the heavens are parents single? No, the thought makes reason stare!
Truth is reason, truth eternal Tells me I've a mother there".

Snow wrote "O My Father" as a poem under the ***le "My Father in Heaven" in October 1845 in Nauvoo, Illinois. The Times and Seasons first published the words on 15 November 1845, more than a year after Joseph Smith, Jr. was killed. The poetry was later set to the music of another Christian hymn, "My Redeemer" by James McGranahan, and included in Latter-day Saint hymnals, including the current one. When a collection of Snow's poems were published in 1856, this work was placed first in the double-volume set and en***led "Invocation, or The Eternal Father and Mother".

[RealFakeHair]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

Sure, but I think I already told you in a previous post, so I am just telling you again: Sealing means that as long as both you and your wife are faithful, and are obedient to the commandments, your marriage can outlast death. That's ***uming you WANT to stay married forever, of course. Some people would go nuts being married to their spouse for eternity. As for me, it sounds great.

I want my 72 virgins, unless they are 72 year old virgins!

[jdjhere]

Nrajeffreturns asked: “But how does that help you support your claim that Joseph Smith taught that by having multiple wives, he was doing the same thing God, as an exalted man, had done?”

Even though it is not an official doctrine of your church, it WAS taught by Smith…

Joseph Smith Jr History of the Church Chapter 6: 305-6 "and you have got to learn how to be gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all gods have done before you, namely, by going from one small degree to another, and from a small capacity to a great one; from grace to grace, from exaltation to exaltation, until you attain to the resurrection of the dead, and are able to dwell in everlasting burnings, and to sit in glory, as do those who sit enthroned in everlasting power."

O My Father(originally "My Father in Heaven", also "Invocation, or The Eternal Father and Mother) is a Latter-day Saint hymn written by Eliza R. Snow, who felt inspired to write the lyrics after Joseph Smith had taught her the principle of heavenly parents.

"One day the Prophet Joseph asked him (Coltrin) and Sidney Rigdon to accompany him into the woods to pray. When they had reached a secluded spot Joseph laid down on his back and stretched out his arms. He told the brethren to lie one on each arm, and then shut their eyes. After they had prayed he told them to open their eyes. They did so and saw a brilliant light surrounding a pedestal which seemed to rest on the earth. They closed their eyes and again prayed. They then saw, on opening them, the Father seated upon a throne; they prayed again and on looking saw the Mother also; after praying and looking the fourth time they saw the Savior added to the group. (Recorded in the journal of Abraham H. Cannon.)

Brigham Young taught it as well, and where did he get the idea from?
"If you have in your hearts to say…'we will not, therefore, be polygamists lest we should fail in obtaining some earthly honor, character and office, etc,"-the man that has that in his heart, and will continue to persist in pursuing that policy, will come short of dwelling in the presence of the Father and the Son, in celestial glory. The only men who become Gods, even the Sons of God, are those who enter into polygamy. Others attain unto a glory and may even be permitted to come into the presence of the Father and the Son; but they cannot reign as kings in glory, because they had blessing offered unto them, and they refused to accept them. The Lord gave a revelation through Joseph Smith, His servant; and we have believed and practiced it. -Journal of Discourses 11:269 (Aug. 19, 1866)

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by Billyray

But Christ himself said that marriage ends at death.

You won't be able to find a verse where Jesus says that all marriages necessarily get dissolved upon death.
If you try to the use one that says that in the resurrection no marriages are performed, you have lost the debate, since it can be true that in the resurrection no marriages are performed while also be true that people who get married BEFORE Resurrection Day can remain married if they want to.

That is the always-fatal flaw in trying that verse as a proof-text. Just saying....

[nrajeffreturns]

...as written by WHO? The original authors? Or as it currently exists?

Originally Posted by Billyray

As it currently exists.

Thanks for clarifying. Now I can resume this debate with you, and simultaneously continue another debate with jdj. Not easy, because I am not good at multi-tasking.

So as I said, I believe that what the original authors wrote was inspired and doctrinally correct. I believe that TODAY'S Bible is inspired and doctrinally correct wherever it has stayed true to what the original authors intended their words to mean.

So I agree, essentially, with the Chicago Statement on Biblical Inerrancy to a large degree, I think.

Is that a problem? Do you have a problem with the Chicago Statement?

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by RealFakeHair

I want my 72 virgins, unless they are 72 year old virgins!

The good news: Yes, you can have young ones.
The bad news: They're all men.

[RealFakeHair]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

...as written by WHO? The original authors? Or as it currently exists? I believe that what the original authors wrote was inspired and doctrinally correct. I believe that TODAY'S Bible is inspired and doctrinally correct wherever it has stayed true to what the original authors intended their words to mean.

So I agree, essentially, with the Chicago Statement on Biblical Inerrancy to a large degree, I think.

Is that a problem?

There is a dis-connect here. On the one had you take everything Joseph Smith jr. wrote, and from a maginary book called the Book of Mormon, yet you question the Holy Bible. Beam me up Scottie.

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

...as written by WHO? The original authors? Or as it currently exists?



Thanks for clarifying. Now I can resume this debate with you, and simultaneously continue another debate with jdj. Not easy, because I am not good at multi-tasking.

So as I said, I believe that what the original authors wrote was inspired and doctrinally correct. I believe that TODAY'S Bible is inspired and doctrinally correct wherever it has stayed true to what the original authors intended their words to mean.

So I agree, essentially, with the Chicago Statement on Biblical Inerrancy to a large degree, I think.

Is that a problem? Do you have a problem with the Chicago Statement?

Jeff you haven't shown, even one instance, that the message of the scripture has been in anyway corrupted.. There is nothing to so that the intent, the meaning, of the scripture has in anyway been changed.. The facts are that all men are sinners, that God in the person of Jesus took on mortal flesh died for the sins of all, and offers salvation by His grace to all that hold faith in Him.. I have shown clearly here that a message doesn't have to use the same words to have the same meaning.. It is the message that is the word of God not the thees and thous of the KJV of the Bible.. You seem to agree with that and yet you are allowing the wording used by translators to cause you to stumble.. Forget the small things . Put away the LDS idea that taught that not even a single verse of the scripture has escaped corruption as to be able to convey the same meaning as the original writers put within then as the Holy Spirit gave to them.. IHS jim

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

So as I said, I believe that what the original authors wrote was inspired and doctrinally correct.

But in the example that you gave me you said that Matthew got it wrong.

[jdjhere]

nrajeffreturns stated: "Now I can resume this debate with you, and simultaneously continue another debate with jdj. Not easy, because I am not good at multi-tasking.

Dont worry about me, Jeff. I will be around.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

So I agree, essentially, with the Chicago Statement on Biblical Inerrancy to a large degree, I think.

Is that a problem? Do you have a problem with the Chicago Statement?

You don't agree with the Chicago Statement because you believe that that Bible has been corrupted--which would include all of the additions that Joseph Smith made in his JST. The problem is that there is no evidence for all of the changes that Joseph made in the Bible--especially the section where he wrote himself into the Bible.

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by RealFakeHair

There is a dis-connect here.

Yes--and the location of that disconnect is between the facts and your mistaken inferences.

On the one had you take everything Joseph Smith jr. wrote, and from a maginary book called the Book of Mormon, yet you question the Holy Bible

Nice try, but the facts are these: I believe BOTH of them contain inspired scripture, and I believe that what the original authors wrote in BOTH of them was inspired and doctrinally correct . I believe that TODAY'S Bible and BOM are inspired and doctrinally correct wherever they have stayed true to what the original authors intended their words to mean.

Beam me up Scottie.

Scottie can't beam you up until you acknowledge that.