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Thread: 19th Century Photo of Joseph Smith’s “Caractors” Discovered

  1. #51
    RealFakeHair
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    Quote Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns View Post
    Yeah, let's see.


    Nope. You didn't understand. Faith is dead if it isn't accompanied by obedience. That doesn't mean that faith IS works. Your logic is like saying that flour is cake.
    One Christian said that faith and good works are like the 2 blades of a scissors--the scissors are useless and unproductive if either one is missing. You need both to make it work.

    But in your logic, there is only one blade called faith, which is also called works. Again, it seems you didn't understand.



    Bzzzzt. Thanks for playing, here are some nice consolation prizes....
    What did I win, what did I win?
    Anyways, which came first obedience or faith? Faith of course, it is obedience at its finest, anything after that is icing on the cake.
    I know how much faith it takes to move a mountain, but I nor anyone knows how much work it takes to move the mountain.
    You like so many work based religion will never know, and that is a sad thing, it leads many to depression beyound boundaries. I on the other hand put my Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ of the Holy Bible. He paid for my sins and Salvation, and it there are any rewards and crowns for me in Heaven, well that is just a plus.

  2. #52
    Snow Patrol
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    Did you even read what I asked? I asked that you explain Christianity with your race ****ogy.

  3. #53
    RealFakeHair
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snow Patrol View Post
    Did you even read what I asked? I asked that you explain Christianity with your race ****ogy.
    Me no read to good, or something?
    When Jesus of the Holy Bible said, "It is finished." I believe Him, so what am I to do but accept Him as my Savior?
    I believe in Him, I worship Him, and I follow Him, and when I fall He is there to pick me up. I don't have to go back and re-step in my foot steps. I was Saved from the time I accepted and no man can take that away from me. Thus the race is as in His own Words. (Finished).
    The race is won! Dog-gone-it, and I didn't get to race the car.

  4. #54
    Snow Patrol
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    Quote Originally Posted by RealFakeHair View Post
    Me no read to good, or something?
    When Jesus of the Holy Bible said, "It is finished." I believe Him, so what am I to do but accept Him as my Savior?
    I believe in Him, I worship Him, and I follow Him, and when I fall He is there to pick me up. I don't have to go back and re-step in my foot steps. I was Saved from the time I accepted and no man can take that away from me. Thus the race is as in His own Words. (Finished).
    The race is won! Dog-gone-it, and I didn't get to race the car.
    So in other words, the starting line and finish line are the same line to you. As soon as you believe you have crossed that line it is all over and it doesn't matter what you do for the rest of your life. Interesting, I can see the appeal.

  5. #55
    nrajeffreturns
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    Quote Originally Posted by RealFakeHair View Post
    What did I win, what did I win?
    Your own free copy of the Book of Mormon. Call the toll-free number to claim your prize.

    Anyways, which came first obedience or faith? Faith of course, it is obedience at its finest
    Correct.

    , anything after that is icing on the cake.
    Not correct. Anything after that is what you MUST do in order to prove your faith is valid, alive, and long-lasting and not just a one-night stand. I can have faith that the guy in the fancy office where I work is the company's CEO, but the mere faith will not save me from being unemployed. I also have to obey what he wants me to do if I want to remain a "saved" employee of his company.

    I know how much faith it takes to move a mountain, but I nor anyone knows how much work it takes to move the mountain.
    I bet the amount of work required to move a mountain could be calculated. I can ask my son who is studying math and engineering at MIT if you want.

  6. #56
    nrajeffreturns
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    Quote Originally Posted by RealFakeHair View Post
    When Jesus of the Holy Bible said, "It is finished."
    Yeah, HIS *** of atoning for your sins was finished. But Him saying "It is finished" wasn't intended to mean that YOUR requirements to avail yourself of that atonement were finished. Your part of the equation hadn't even BEGUN when Jesus finished His part.

    I believe Him, so what am I to do but accept Him as my Savior?
    Quite a lot, actually. Read Jesus' commandments for the details. He said that eternal life is knowing Him and the Father who sent Him. The only way to know Him is to love and obey Him. If you don't obey Him, you don't love Him, and if you don't obey or love Him, then can't know Him. John spells it out for you.

    I believe in Him, I worship Him, and I follow Him, and when I fall He is there to pick me up. I don't have to go back and re-step in my foot steps.
    It's true that if you got baptized once, you probably don't need to go back and get baptized again. But if you sin, part of forgiveness is repentance, which entails going back and trying to get it right.

    I was Saved from the time I accepted and no man can take that away from me.
    If you are a man, then you can take it away from yourself. It's quite easy to lose your salvation, actually. All you need to do is stray off the path that leads to eternal life, and stay on the other path until Judgment Day.

  7. #57
    MacG
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    Source of this claim?
    19th century English translations

    Quote Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns View Post
    What if it wasn't their goal to eliminate all mistakes made by former compilers or translators?
    So a translation is made from the Hebrew and Greek. It contains English spelling errors and grammar mistakes.

    Two hundred years later new translators publish their translation of the same Hebrew and Greek into their contemporary English. Is it not suspicious that they will make the same English spelling and grammar mistakes that were made by a different team two hundred years hence?
    Last edited by MacG; 09-04-2013 at 01:14 AM.

  8. #58
    James Banta
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacG View Post
    so a translation is made from the Hebrew and Greek. It contains English spelling errors and grammar mistakes.

    Two hundred years later new translators publish their translation into English. Is it not suspicious that they will make the same English spelling and grammar mistakes that were made by a different team two hundred years hence?
    Hello, No one ever claimed they got the translation directly from God.. They can have some errors because it was made through man's knowledge not God's IHS jim

  9. #59
    nrajeffreturns
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    "Critics have long adopted the cynical position that Joseph Smith simply copied the King James Version (KJV) Bible text for the relevant portions of Isaiah, Malachi, and the Sermon on the Mount. Even some Church members have presumed that the close match between the texts indicates that Joseph simply opened a Bible and copied those chapters when he came to material on the gold plates that he recognized as being from the Bible.
    Did Joseph simply copy the KJV text?

    There are several problems with this view....

    We often find differences in Book of Mormon Isaiah texts where modern texts disagree.[4] One verse (2 Nephi 12:16), is not only different but adds a completely new phrase: "And upon all the ships of the sea." This non-King James addition agrees with the Greek (Septuagint) version of the Bible, which had not been translated into English in Joseph Smith's day.[5]

    It is also significant that the chapters of Isaiah actually quoted in the Book of Mormon (chapters 2-14 and 48-54) are those which modern scholars widely agree correspond closely to the original Isaiah collection and therefore would have been the most likely to have existed in Lehi's day....

    http://en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Mor...s_from_the_KJV

  10. #60
    RealFakeHair
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snow Patrol View Post
    So in other words, the starting line and finish line are the same line to you. As soon as you believe you have crossed that line it is all over and it doesn't matter what you do for the rest of your life. Interesting, I can see the appeal.
    I think you got it, but let me add something to better clarify. When a believer steps to the line it is Jesus of the Holy Bible who carries the new babe in Christ upon His shoulders and the both of them make the journey together through the valley of tears, and the mountain of joy, and when we reach the end of our road we are handed our pardon.
    Unjustified as we as sinners are, and unworthy as I am, it is just the way of the Cross. Thank God!

  11. #61
    James Banta
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    Quote Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns View Post
    "Critics have long adopted the cynical position that Joseph Smith simply copied the King James Version (KJV) Bible text for the relevant portions of Isaiah, Malachi, and the Sermon on the Mount. Even some Church members have presumed that the close match between the texts indicates that Joseph simply opened a Bible and copied those chapters when he came to material on the gold plates that he recognized as being from the Bible.
    Did Joseph simply copy the KJV text?

    There are several problems with this view....

    We often find differences in Book of Mormon Isaiah texts where modern texts disagree.[4] One verse (2 Nephi 12:16), is not only different but adds a completely new phrase: "And upon all the ships of the sea." This non-King James addition agrees with the Greek (Septuagint) version of the Bible, which had not been translated into English in Joseph Smith's day.[5]

    It is also significant that the chapters of Isaiah actually quoted in the Book of Mormon (chapters 2-14 and 48-54) are those which modern scholars widely agree correspond closely to the original Isaiah collection and therefore would have been the most likely to have existed in Lehi's day....

    http://en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Mor...s_from_the_KJV
    Sure, if I was trying to copy the text of the Bible into my own religious work I would add a bit of my own thoughts salted through it.. Smith didn't understand that it is FORBIDDEN to add to or remove from the text of the word as it was given.. You say that Lehi and for that matter all of his party had access to all the text of Isaiah.. I disagree with that since there are parts of the history that occurred after Jerusalem was surrounded in full siege. Yet the BofM tell us that Nephi and his brothers moved in and out of the city without trouble.. Yes and the KJV also corresponds closely to the original Isaiah collection. The same meaning is there in all the differing wording found in the Isaiah test. Take the 53rd Chapter as an example. Of the 166 words in Isaiah 53, there are only 17 letters in question. Ten of these letters are simply a matter of spelling, which does not affect the sense. Four more letters are minor stylistic changes, such as conjunctions. The three remaining letters comprise the word LIGHT, which is added in verse 11 and which does not affect the meaning of the p***age. Then there is the problem with Mathew and Malachi. They wouldn't be written for hundreds of years but there they are almost word for word what we find in the KJV of the Bible.. It is clear that these p***ages were taken from the KJV of the Bible. (I used http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/31_masorite.html as my referance to this post) IHS jim

  12. #62
    MacG
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    Quote Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns View Post

    ... This non-King James addition agrees with the Greek (Septuagint) version of the Bible, [B]which had not been translated into English in Joseph Smith's day....[5]
    Your source is mistaken.

    "Different Translations of the Septuagint in English

    The Septuagint has been translated a few times into English, the first one (though excluding the Apocrypha) being that of Charles Thomson in 1808."

    It took him 19 years to complete meaning he started in 1791 before Joesph Smith was born and completed when Joseph Smith was 3 years old.

    Please note: I did not say your source intentionally misrepresented, just mistaken or perhaps was not aware of Thompson's work.

  13. #63
    nrajeffreturns
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    You appear to be entirely correct, Mac. Good ***, and thanks for finding that out. I may inform FAIR of their mistake so they can correct that part of their article, unless you want to do it since it was you who discovered the error.

    I am supposing that JS is not known to have had access to this translation, but I wonder where the nearest copy of it was
    to JS in 1828-9.

  14. #64
    alanmolstad
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    Do you think some Mormons sit around and try to decipher the marks?

  15. #65
    alanmolstad
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    I cant speak of others....but when I look at them I just see...
    Fake-fake-fake...

    It's so clearly fake to my eyes that I question the mental powers of anyone who looks at such **** and thinks.."Oh it's of god!"

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