Why did Jesus reference Psalms 82:6, when he was accused of blasphemy?

[Libby]

This is reference that LDS use all the time, to prove that Jesus believed it was possible for humans to become "gods". Jesus did use this reference in John 10, when he was being accused of blasphemy, by the leaders of the church. Was he mocking them? I am not clear on this.

[Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Libby

This is reference that LDS use all the time, to prove that Jesus believed it was possible for humans to become "gods". Jesus did use this reference in John 10, when he was being accused of blasphemy, by the leaders of the church. Was he mocking them? I am not clear on this.

It seems to me that what Jesus was doing was using simple logic with those men. I don't think He was mocking them.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Phoenix

It seems to me that what Jesus was doing was using simple logic with those men. I don't think He was mocking them.

I think there has to be more to it, because we don't, in actuality, become "gods". I do believe God makes us into something that is magnificent, something that glorifies HIM..and it is His doing, not ours. But, the Bible is clear that there is only ONE GOD.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

This is reference that LDS use all the time, to prove that Jesus believed it was possible for humans to become "gods". Jesus did use this reference in John 10, when he was being accused of blasphemy, by the leaders of the church. Was he mocking them? I am not clear on this.

Certainly he was pointing out their hypocrisy because they believed that unrighteous human judges were called gods and they didn't seem to be bothered by that, yet they took objection when Christ who is God said that He was God's Son. Interestingly enough these same people were unrighteous judges (i.e. gods) who judged Jesus which ultimately lead to His crucification.

BK commentary

10:34.
Jesus 'response to their objection requires a bit of insight into the methods of argument common in Rabbinic discussions. He first directed them to the Old Testament:in your Law. Normally "the Law" refers to the first five books. But here it means all the Old Testament, for Jesus quoted from the Psalms. It was "your" Law in the sense that they gloried in their possession of it, and also in the sense that they should submit to its authority over them. Psalm 82 speaks of God as the true Judge (Ps. 82:1, 8) and of men, appointed as judges, who were failing to provide true judgment for God (Ps. 82:2- 7). "Gods" in Psalm 82:1, 6 refers to these human judges. In this sense, God said to the Jews, You are gods. In no way does this speak of a divine nature in man.

10:35
As seen in verse 34, Jesus argued that in certain situations (as in Ps. 82:1, 6) men were called... "gods." The Hebrew word for God or gods is eloheem. This word is used elsewhere (e. g., Ex. 21:6; 22:8) to mean human judges. Jesus added to His argument the words, and the Scripture cannot be broken, so that no one could evade its force by saying an error was in the Scriptures. This important text clearly points up the inerrancy of the Bible.

10:36
Jesus now completed His argument. Since the inerrant Bible called their judges "gods," the Jews could not logically accuse Him of blasphemy for calling Himself God's Son since He was under divine orders (set apart) and on God's mission (sent into the world)

ESV Study Bible

10:34 Jesus 'point in quoting Ps. 82:6 is that if human judges (Ps. 82:2–4) can in some sense be called gods (in light of their role as representatives of God), this designation is even more appropriate for the one who truly is the Son of God (John 10:33, 35–36)

[Libby]

Thanks, Billy. That was very helpful.

[Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Libby

Thanks, Billy. That was very helpful.

Then this will be, too:

http://articulifidei.blogspot.com/20...h-fathers.html

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Phoenix

Then this will be, too:

http://articulifidei.blogspot.com/20...h-fathers.html

That was interesting. So was this.

http://vintage.aomin.org/ONEGOD.html

Modern LDS apologists like to cite p***ages from early patristic sources, ***erting that the early fathers taught that men could become gods. Is this true? Did the early Church teach the Mormon doctrine of God? Did they believe that men could become gods like God, and that God Himself was once a man?

There are a number of p***ages in the early fathers that speak of men being "deified." But what do these p***ages actually mean?

[Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Libby

Modern LDS apologists like to cite p***ages from early patristic sources, ***erting that the early fathers taught that men could become gods. Is this true?

Yes. It is true.

Did the early Church teach the Mormon doctrine of God?

That is a fallacious segue because it becomes a straw man when used that way--transitioning from the claim that the early fathers taught that men could become gods--which is a historical fact--to the debatable claim that the early Church taught the Mormon doctrine of God, which is not the same thing.

It's like if one person believes that the Earth is flat, and another person believes that the Earth is not flat and is in fact shaped like a doughnut.

So the first person says "Do you claim that scientists of past centuries stated that the Earth isn't flat?"
2nd person says "Yes."
Then the 1st person says "So you're claiming that scientists of past centuries stated that the Earth is shaped like a doughnut?"

Do you see where the 1st person made the fallacious conclusion?

[RealFakeHair]

Originally Posted by Phoenix

Yes. It is true.


That is a fallacious segue because it becomes a straw man when used that way--transitioning from the claim that the early fathers taught that men could become gods--which is a historical fact--to the debatable claim that the early Church taught the Mormon doctrine of God, which is not the same thing.

It's like if one person believes that the Earth is flat, and another person believes that the Earth is not flat and is in fact shaped like a doughnut.

So the first person says "Do you claim that scientists of past centuries stated that the Earth isn't flat?"
2nd person says "Yes."
Then the 1st person says "So you're claiming that scientists of past centuries stated that the Earth is shaped like a doughnut?"

Do you see where the 1st person made the fallacious conclusion?

Once again LDSinc. Double type. Did the Christian Church ever teach mormon doctine of become a god and having eternal sex with millions or so LDS goddess to produce LDSinc. Spirit children?
The Answer is NO, no never ever it came from the imaginary mind of the sex addic Joseph Smith jr.
Next question?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Phoenix

Yes. It is true.

Would you say that ECF's writings trump the Bible and the Book of Mormon when it comes to belief in one God or many gods?

[Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Would you say that ECF's writings trump the Bible and the Book of Mormon when it comes to belief in one God or many gods?

No, I wouldn't say that, because it's not a matter of trumping. The fact is that some ECF writings fill in some blanks, & provide info about the beliefs and practices of early Christians where that info is not provided in the Bible's and BOM's accounts. I think what the ECF writings do, is put the Bible's accounts into perspective, which can help us figure out whether the Bible ever actually did teach the strict monotheism that some modern Christians and Jews believe in.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Phoenix

No, I wouldn't say that, because it's not a matter of trumping. The fact is that some ECF writings fill in some blanks, & provide info about the beliefs and practices of early Christians where that info is not provided in the Bible's and BOM's accounts.

So you would agree that the Bible and Book of Mormon teach Monotheism?

[Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Billyray

So you would agree that the Bible and Book of Mormon teach Monotheism?

No. But I would agree that without the added context that we get from the ECFs and other extrabiblical sources, it can appear that the Bible and Book of Mormon teach strict Monotheism, especially in the OT-era parts, when there was less info available about the 3 Persons than there was in the NT era.

Of course, both the Bible and the BOM can SEEM to teach Modalism, too. Just ask a Modalist.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Phoenix

Of course, both the Bible and the BOM can SEEM to teach Modalism, too. Just ask a Modalist.

So the Bible and the Book of Mormon teach monotheism and Mormonism teaches polytheism. Don't you find that strange?

(BTW the ECF never taught polytheism like you claim)

[Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Billyray

So the Bible and the Book of Mormon teach monotheism

You need to read more carefully what I wrote:

it can appear that the Bible and Book of Mormon teach strict Monotheism

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Phoenix

You need to read more carefully what I wrote:

it can appear that the Bible and Book of Mormon teach strict Monotheism

Let's look at the Book of Mormon and see if it does teach monotheism (modalism). Are you ready to do that?