What does it mean

[James Banta]

What does it mean to "Do all you can do".. In medicine it means to expend every possible means to prevent the death of a patient. In our daily work it means to do everything possible to be successful. So what does it mean in mormon salvation? It is commanded in the LDS scripture:

2 Nephi 25:23
For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.

Isn't there always one more dollar that can be given to build the "kingdom". Isn't there one more person living in poverty that can be helped? Isn't there always one more page of scripture that could be read. One less bit of anger we could avoid? One less sin we could commit? The answer for me is I can never do ALL I CAN DO. But I have always agreed with the LDS at least in my flesh that they are much better people than I am a man.. So again I leave you with the question what does it mean to "Do all you can do".. IHS jim

[Snow Patrol]

Is this really that confusing of a question? Doing all one can do depends on the individual. Yes, one can take things to extremes and focus everything on one aspect such as feeding the sick, but if he neglects his family and other responsibilities then he is not doing all he can do. If one wastes countless hours a day playing computer games, then one is not doing all he can do. I think when someone takes a true accounting of their life, they KNOW whether they are doing all they can do.

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Snow Patrol

Is this really that confusing of a question? Doing all one can do depends on the individual. Yes, one can take things to extremes and focus everything on one aspect such as feeding the sick, but if he neglects his family and other responsibilities then he is not doing all he can do. If one wastes countless hours a day playing computer games, then one is not doing all he can do. I think when someone takes a true accounting of their life, they KNOW whether they are doing all they can do.

Then you have come to understand that no one EVER does all they can do.. Because of that according to LDS scripture No one can ever be saved.. Doing all you can do doesn't seem to be a "It would be nice if you could" kind commandment but instead a "Thou Shalt" kind of commandment.. A commandment that no one I have ever even heard of has kept.. Therefore no one can be saved.. Snow, there is always one more thing you can do no matter what you have done.. Another few minutes spent with your family, Another dollar you to give to help the homeless. Another person you tan tell the Gospel message too.. No one could ever "Do all they can do.." IHS jim

[Snow Patrol]

Yep, then we should be like "Christians" and do nothing more. You got it.

What do you think Christ wants from us? He knows no one is perfect. He knows we will all fall short. What do you think He is going to say "He everyone, live your life at 88.51 percent effort and you'll be fine." No. He wants us our whole heart, might, and mind in the effort. Does He know we will fall short? Yeup. But go ahead and live your life with zero effort. See what Christ has to say about that effort at judgement day.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Snow Patrol

Yep, then we should be like "Christians" and do nothing more. You got it.

What do you think Christ wants from us? He knows no one is perfect. He knows we will all fall short. What do you think He is going to say "He everyone, live your life at 88.51 percent effort and you'll be fine." No. He wants us our whole heart, might, and mind in the effort. Does He know we will fall short? Yeup. But go ahead and live your life with zero effort. See what Christ has to say about that effort at judgement day.

And the beauty of it really is--there really is joy in working with the Lord. When you put in your best effort, when you call on Him in mighty prayer, when you practice faith---when you see the results, WOW--it is really good. Your faith grows. You gain a greater knowledge of His absolute love for you--not that you did not believe or have faith before, but it becomes a sure knowledge--an unbreakable knowledge.

This is why it is sad to me-those who do not understand the works side of the equation. There is something really wonderful about giving all of your heart, might, mind and strength to God.

[Snow Patrol]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

And the beauty of it really is--there really is joy in working with the Lord. When you put in your best effort, when you call on Him in mighty prayer, when you practice faith---when you see the results, WOW--it is really good. Your faith grows. You gain a greater knowledge of His absolute love for you--not that you did not believe or have faith before, but it becomes a sure knowledge--an unbreakable knowledge.

This is why it is sad to me-those who do not understand the works side of the equation. There is something really wonderful about giving all of your heart, might, mind and strength to God.

What you say is so true. When one does give their all, imperfect as it might be, they grow and their faith expands. This expansion then stretches them to do even more than they thought capable. They continue to expand and grow and stretch. This is a great thing.

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

And the beauty of it really is--there really is joy in working with the Lord. When you put in your best effort, when you call on Him in mighty prayer, when you practice faith---when you see the results, WOW--it is really good. Your faith grows. You gain a greater knowledge of His absolute love for you--not that you did not believe or have faith before, but it becomes a sure knowledge--an unbreakable knowledge.

This is why it is sad to me-those who do not understand the works side of the equation. There is something really wonderful about giving all of your heart, might, mind and strength to God.

You have shown that you have no faith in God at all. I have shown you that faith is how we access God's grace.. You still insist that there is a works side to grace.. I have shown you that we are saved by grace or works NOT both (Romans 11:6). We are saved by grace You agree with that. The question here is how we gain that grace. By saying that is is a product of both faith and work you deny the scripture that Tell is that We gain God's grace through faith and NOT OF WORKS. You speak outside the Gospel and not how God has explained the process..

To love God with all your heart mind and strength a person first must know that He is there and is what He says He is. To Moses God demanded that He exists. He gave His existence as His name. Telling Moses that He is "I AM". Then he explained His nature to Moses AND THE PROPHETS. He told Moses that WE should listen to Him that He is the Lord God, that He is ONE LORD.. Jesus confirmed this in the same p***age you used to Find the quote that we should love Him with all our Heart Mind and Strength (Mark 12:27-29). You can't fall in love with a figment from a man's mind. You have to believe the Being you Love and accept Him for what He is..

Remember Jesus said that the Father is Spirit (John 4:24). He defines a spirit as not having a body of flesh and bone (Luke 24:39). The Holy Spirit through the Apostle Paul said that Jesus is the image of the invisible God (Col 1:15). We must find a way to agree with God that He is God and there is no other without adding to the scripture a phrase that makes it work in our minds but denies the truth that No other God was formed before God and no other will be formed after Him (Isaiah 43:10).. Does not mormonism teach that Jesus the God of this world was formed as a God AFTER the Father was already God? Ignoring the scripture and making up your own God to love with all your Heart Mind and Strength is sin, It's idolatry.. Mormonism teaches IDOLATRY as truth calling it a more sure way.. I know with experience that sin is NOT a more sure way to anything but death.. Time to reexamine your religion.. IHS jim

[nrajeffreturns]

Good point. According to the Bible,

'You must love the LORD your God with all your heart, all your soul, all your strength, and all your mind.'

That sounds a LOT like "Do all you can do."

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

Good point. According to the Bible,

'You must love the LORD your God with all your heart, all your soul, all your strength, and all your mind.'

That sounds a LOT like "Do all you can do."

Exactly! It is the way I read it as well.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Exactly! It is the way I read it as well.

And can you tell me a single person who does that?

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Billyray

And can you tell me a single person who does that?

Ummm, I was replying to nrajeffreturns---I will name him as the single person.

Or are you making the submission that if we turn to Christ, we are unable (with His help) to love Him with all of our heart, might, mind, and strength? Are you saying that it is impossible for God to help us do this?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Ummm, I was replying to nrajeffreturns---I will name him as the single person.

Or are you making the submission that if we turn to Christ, we are unable (with His help) to love Him with all of our heart, might, mind, and strength? Are you saying that it is impossible for God to help us do this?

Do you really believe you obey the two great commandments? For starters you don't even follow the true God of the Bible lets alone obey either of these two commandments.

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Do you really believe you obey the two great commandments?

Are you saying that if a person currently isn't obeying a commandment, that it's therefore not really a commandment?

[Libby]

Hi Julie! Nice to see you again.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Libby

Hi Julie! Nice to see you again.

Thanks Libby. I hope all is well with you.

[BigJulie]

Quote Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns (with red highlights from Realfake)

Good point. According to the Bible, but how can you trust it?

'You must love the LORD your Gods with all your heart, all your soul, all your strength, and all your mind.' and follow all the rules, commandments and whatever comes out of the prophet's mouth.That sounds a LOT like "Do all you can do."

Realfake, you ask a good question, so I thought I would reply.

First, the goal of the Bible is not to teach you to trust the Bible, but to trust God (whose words it is), right? I think you would agree. The Bible if full of stories in which people are told to listen to God, not what they think God wrote. An example is the Pharisees versus Peter. One trusted what they think was written, the other trusted God.

So, how do we get to the point we trust God. Well, we follow what is written--for starters. God teaches us to pray and to turn to him. We are also born with the "light of Christ" or an inner mechanism that teaches us what the Spirit feels like versus the body. We do something wrong, we feel guilt. We do something good, we feel light.

So, the point of the Bible really is to get us to learn to recognize the Spirit---it essentially teaches us what it means to follow the Spirit and what it means to follow the flesh. It is full of stories of those who followed God even when it appeared to contract what was already known of God--such as with Abraham, animal sacrifice, eating kosher or not, etc. The end point---the authority is always God, we are always to turn to God, we are to learn what it means to follow God. How do we know the difference of when we are following God or not? If we went by the word of God alone, we would end up looking much like the Pharisees and Saducees. Sure that they understood the word, sure that they were chosen, but they were horribly mistaken. Therefore, God gives us a second witness--His Spirit. The combination of the two (His word and His Spirit--wow, doesn't that sound an awful like like Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost)---is what allows us to known and learn to trust God.

Second point--everything that comes out of the mouths of the prophets. Well, I think that is the whole point of the Bible--that with God nothing is impossible. As I noted, with faith Abraham sacrificed Isaac. With faith, Moses parted the Red Sea. With faith, the apostles healed the sick and raised the dead. What exactly then, do you think is impossible?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

. . .the point of the Bible really is to get us to learn to recognize the Spirit---it essentially teaches us what it means to follow the Spirit and what it means to follow the flesh. . .

The major point of the Bible is that we are all sinners and that we are saved when we place our faith in Christ for salvation. The harder the rules were the more people fell short. You have a completely twisted view of what the Bible teaches in that you believe that you actually obey all the commandments. You don't even follow the God of the Bible--perhaps you could start with that one.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Billyray

The major point of the Bible is that we are all sinners and that we are saved when we place our faith in Christ for salvation. The harder the rules were the more people fell short. You have a completely twisted view of what the Bible teaches in that you believe that you actually obey all the commandments. You don't even follow the God of the Bible--perhaps you could start with that one.

The harder the rules, the more people fall short? Then why give any rules at all? Then all could be saved?

Yes, you and I have very different ideas of what the main point of the Bible is. I agree, we are all sinners and fall short--but to me, that is not the main point. The main point is that we can be perfected in Christ--that with Him, we can be healed from our weaknesses--not that we have to live with them.

I think non-Mormons often mistakes what it means "all we can do." I think they think that means we can do it all right now. But that is not how it works. What we are taught is that with the spirit, God will work with us as we work with Him. As we put in our best effort, he will take our weaknesses and perfect them. This takes time--but so worth the effort.

God doesn't want us to live forever with our sins and weaknesses, He wants to free us from them.

From the Book of Mormon:

"Nevertheless, the Lord God showeth us our weakness that we may know that it is by his grace, and his great condescensions unto the children of men, that we have power to do these things."

"And if men come unto me I will show unto them their weakness. I give unto men weakness that they may be humble; and my grace is sufficient for all men that humble themselves before me; for if they humble themselves before me, and have faith in me, then will I make weak things become strong unto them."

In other words, he commanded us to be perfect--not to show us that we can't, but to teach us how we can.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Yes, you and I have very different ideas of what the main point of the Bible is. I agree, we are all sinners and fall short--but to me, that is not the main point. The main point is that we can be perfected in Christ--that with Him, we can be healed from our weaknesses--not that we have to live with them.

You just reaffirm that you believe you are saved by your own works. That is why Christians say that Mormonism is a works based religion.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Billyray

You just reaffirm that you believe you are saved by your own works. That is why Christians say that Mormonism is a works based religion.

I guess you will just never understand what it means to be "perfected in Christ" because you believe it is not possible.

The more I hear works criticized, the more I rejoice in understanding works. I would never presume to tell a child that because it is not possible for them to know all information, it is not worth aquiring an education. I would also never tell a child that if they just go to cl***, they can sleep through it and somehow acquire knowledge. I would also never tell a child that they can get an education by their own merit and that they do not need the help "grace" of a knowledgabe teacher who will sacrifice on their behalf so that they can learn (ask any teacher, they don't do it for the money.)

The sad thing is here, you seem to think if you can't be perfect all at once, it is not worth even attempting to really make an effort (with all your heart, might, mind and strength) to follow God. And the other sad thing is that you seem to think that God's grace is not enough to make your weaknesses strong.

Yes, Billyray, I can say that you and I see God very differently. I see him as a healer and a teacher. You seem to see him as an enabler (you are too sinful to change, and he is too powerless to help you.)

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Yes, Billyray, I can say that you and I see God very differently. I see him as a healer and a teacher. You seem to see him as an enabler (you are too sinful to change, and he is too powerless to help you.)

Where we differ is that you believe you are saved by your own works as I said above and I believe that we are saved when we place our faith in Christ to save us. Mormonism and Christianity are polar opposites.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Where we differ is that you believe you are saved by your own works as I said above and I believe that we are saved when we place our faith in Christ to save us. Mormonism and Christianity are polar opposites.

You are funny--you must insist on sticking to your view of what I believe regardless of whether or not I have shown you clearly exacty how Christ's grace saves us--not just in our sins, but from them---that he actually heals us.

And I have a testimony that working with the Lord is a beautiful thing. Two things that non-denominationals seem to give up--work and feelings--both of these things are a major part of our lives and the very essense of what and who we are. Work is a source of great joy (a feeling) as we work with the Lord (put on his yoke). His grace then (as we work for him) can be seen so clearly in our salvation. One of the greatest blessings I have had as a mother is to teach my children of Christ when they are struggling with their own weaknesses---when they are feeling guilty---to be able to give them hope in Christ and to teach them how to apply the atonement in their lives. I don't tell them--you believe so don't worry about it---I teach them how to apply the atonement. Do you realize that the 12-step is basically a repentence process. It teaches people how to apply God's love in their lives. It is work. It is worth it. Cleansing can occur. I have watched my children work with and for God---and be cleansed and healed. It is brings me so much joy as a mother to watch them be free of not only guilt, but also weakness so that it no longer plaques them.


Phl 2:12-13 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

God working in us as we work out or own salvation---these two verses can really be understood together, not just be reading it and intellectually understanding it, but because once it has been lived, it is clearly seen.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

God working in us as we work out or own salvation-

You WORK out your own salvation--which means to you that you are saved by doing good works. Again that is why Christians say that Mormonism is a works based religion.

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Phl 2:12-13 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

God working in us as we work out or own salvation---these two verses can really be understood together, not just be reading it and intellectually understanding it, but because once it has been lived, it is clearly seen.

Lets place your concept into other scriptures..

"For by grace we are save through faith and that not of ourselves it is a give of God NOT OF WORKS", but we must work out or own salvation.. Does it fit? How about this one "And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work." But since salvation has a works component then grace really isn't grace now is it.. Does your thinking work in that? NO!! Salvation is either of Grace or it is of works NOT BOTH!! You have told me many time that the LDS are saved by grace.. If that was true Julie then there works would not have a place in your doctrines of salvation.. That is BIBLICAL! So to hold Phl 2:12-13 as being God's true we must see it as ALL God's work, even that which is seen in us as doing is God doing |His work within us.. If it was us working out our own salvation then these other p***ages would be a lie wouldn't they? It would be a lie to teach that salvation is by God's grace through faith and NOT OF WORKS.. So tell me which way is it? If the Bible true, or are your interpretation of Phl 2:12-13 right and therefore the rest of the Bible that clearly teach GRACE though faith is the way to salvation?

Come on now explain this to us.. Did God change His mind half way though the New Testament. When Jesus taught Nicodemus that "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." HE THAT BELIEVES, not he that works out his own salvation.. Make it all work my lady or none of it has any truth to it at all.. IHS jim

[RealFakeHair]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Realfake, you ask a good question, so I thought I would reply.

First, the goal of the Bible is not to teach you to trust the Bible, but to trust God (whose words it is), right? I think you would agree. The Bible if full of stories in which people are told to listen to God, not what they think God wrote. An example is the Pharisees versus Peter. One trusted what they think was written, the other trusted God.

So, how do we get to the point we trust God. Well, we follow what is written--for starters. God teaches us to pray and to turn to him. We are also born with the "light of Christ" or an inner mechanism that teaches us what the Spirit feels like versus the body. We do something wrong, we feel guilt. We do something good, we feel light.

So, the point of the Bible really is to get us to learn to recognize the Spirit---it essentially teaches us what it means to follow the Spirit and what it means to follow the flesh. It is full of stories of those who followed God even when it appeared to contract what was already known of God--such as with Abraham, animal sacrifice, eating kosher or not, etc. The end point---the authority is always God, we are always to turn to God, we are to learn what it means to follow God. How do we know the difference of when we are following God or not? If we went by the word of God alone, we would end up looking much like the Pharisees and Saducees. Sure that they understood the word, sure that they were chosen, but they were horribly mistaken. Therefore, God gives us a second witness--His Spirit. The combination of the two (His word and His Spirit--wow, doesn't that sound an awful like like Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost)---is what allows us to known and learn to trust God.

Second point--everything that comes out of the mouths of the prophets. Well, I think that is the whole point of the Bible--that with God nothing is impossible. As I noted, with faith Abraham sacrificed Isaac. With faith, Moses parted the Red Sea. With faith, the apostles healed the sick and raised the dead. What exactly then, do you think is impossible?

To quote Jesus of the Holy Bible, "Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me." End of quote. that's all.