Interesting conversion story

[nrajeffreturns]

I thought some of you might be interested in this story. I liked it.

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/7...tory.html?pg=1

"I remember the first time I ever went to a Mormon church. I was 18 years old and a senior in high school. Trust me when I say I had no desire to be a Mormon. My parents divorced when I was a baby, and growing up my mom was a wonderful example of virtue, goodness and working hard to reach your potential. She brought us kids to a local Baptist church, where I learned to love the Lord as a little girl. I am thankful for my upbringing and my mother's powerful influence because I don't know who I would be or where I would be without her. I had just been crowned Miss Teen Nevada, and my dream was to become Miss USA...."

[RealFakeHair]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

I thought some of you might be interested in this story. I liked it.

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/7...tory.html?pg=1

"I remember the first time I ever went to a Mormon church. I was 18 years old and a senior in high school. Trust me when I say I had no desire to be a Mormon. My parents divorced when I was a baby, and growing up my mom was a wonderful example of virtue, goodness and working hard to reach your potential. She brought us kids to a local Baptist church, where I learned to love the Lord as a little girl. I am thankful for my upbringing and my mother's powerful influence because I don't know who I would be or where I would be without her. I had just been crowned Miss Teen Nevada, and my dream was to become Miss USA...."

It all makes sense now. One of the perplexing things about women is their blind devotion to male predators of the likes of Bill Clinton, Joseph Smith jr. David Koresh, and so on.
Oh, by the way if you were crowned Miss Teen Nevada today, you might be a girl or you might be a boy........lol

[nrajeffreturns]

Glad you liked the news article.

[RealFakeHair]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

Glad you liked the news article.

I have to admit, I do watch Honey ****oo too! Now that would be a laugh to see that family covert to Joseph Smith jr. inc. lol

[RealFakeHair]

Originally Posted by RealFakeHair

I have to admit, I do watch Hony ****oo too! Now that would be a laugh to see that family covert to Joseph Smith jr. inc. lol

Ha, Ha, astras in the place of Honey B oo Boo.lol

[tdidymas]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

I thought some of you might be interested in this story. I liked it.

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/7...tory.html?pg=1

"I remember the first time I ever went to a Mormon church. I was 18 years old and a senior in high school. Trust me when I say I had no desire to be a Mormon. My parents divorced when I was a baby, and growing up my mom was a wonderful example of virtue, goodness and working hard to reach your potential. She brought us kids to a local Baptist church, where I learned to love the Lord as a little girl. I am thankful for my upbringing and my mother's powerful influence because I don't know who I would be or where I would be without her. I had just been crowned Miss Teen Nevada, and my dream was to become Miss USA...."

It was indeed an interesting story, sounds like she is happy now. However, this quote:
"I didn't want other people's opinions, good or bad, to drown out what I wanted to feel in my life."
is an indication that she wasn't searching for truth, but only happiness, which I'm sure the Mormon religion can give, just as any religion can give it, if the person is willing to submit (regardless of whether it is the truth or not).

If a person is searching for the truth (according to my experience) they might ask other peoples' opinions, but they usually investigate everything themselves, and weigh the opinions against what they believe God is saying (regardless of how they feel about it). It sounds to me like what was done was she only listened to the opinions of those who made her feel good. This is simply another manifestation of "living according to the flesh," since she was judging "truth" according to her feelings rather than according to what evidence (outside herself) was showing.

It is unfortunate that the church she chose appeared dead to her. The cultic culture can happen in "orthodox" churches just as much as in cults like Mormonism or JWs. It depends on the leadership.
TD

[nrajeffreturns]

Thanks for the comments, TD. I prefer to ***ume that what she meant was that possibly she didn't know exactly what this true happiness was that she was seeking, but she had been around enough to know what it wasn't when she saw it.

I admit that one person's definition of true happiness can differ from another person's definition. For example, I had a co-worker who once told me "I hear you LDS believe that married people can stay married forever." I said "Yes." And I was ready to hear him say "Wow, how cool." But I jumped to the wrong conclusion. He said "Why would I want to stay married to my wife forever? I can hardly stand to be with her down here."

I learned that what would make me happy forever would be hell for someone else who doesn't place importance on the same things that I do.

Fortunately, if some people find happiness in being single forever, God is nice enough to give them what they want.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

Thanks for the comments, TD. I prefer to ***ume that what she meant was that possibly she didn't know exactly what this true happiness was that she was seeking, but she had been around enough to know what it wasn't when she saw it.

I admit that one person's definition of true happiness can differ from another person's definition. For example, I had a co-worker who once told me "I hear you LDS believe that married people can stay married forever." I said "Yes." And I was ready to hear him say "Wow, how cool." But I jumped to the wrong conclusion. He said "Why would I want to stay married to my wife forever? I can hardly stand to be with her down here."

I learned that what would make me happy forever would be hell for someone else who doesn't place importance on the same things that I do.

Fortunately, if some people find happiness in being single forever, God is nice enough to give them what they want.

But Christ himself told us that we are not married in heaven. So why do you persist in believing your false doctrine?

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by Billyray

But Christ himself told us that we are not married in heaven.

False. He didn't say that. You should have realized that by now, after the many times this has come up.

So why do you persist in believing your false doctrine?

You mean, why do I persist in believing the true doctrine that God is both willing and able to make marriages last beyond the grave? Because I believe in a God who has that much power and that much love and generosity. That's why.

[cheachea]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

False. He didn't say that. You should have realized that by now, after the many times this has come up.

"Till death do us part"

Mark 12:25 For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

False. He didn't say that. You should have realized that by now, after the many times this has come up.

That is exactly what he said. Do you want to look at the verses again?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

You mean, why do I persist in believing the true doctrine that God is both willing and able to make marriages last beyond the grave? Because I believe in a God who has that much power and that much love and generosity. That's why.

Why on earth do you think God would do something that goes against what he clearly said in His word?

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Why on earth do you think God would do something that goes against what he clearly said in His word?

Isn't that sad? The LDS has a God that changes His mind adding requirements to gain salvation as it seem good to Him. Even the key and signs learned in their temples have changed.. I guess since the people that died before the change will now be giving the wrong information as they stand before the veil waiting their turn to enter exaltation.. We can count on our God.. He doesn't change and therefore we can trust His requirements to enter His presence.. We have obtained perfection in and through the life and blood of Jesus.. It is all about Him and what He has done, not one thing about what we do or must do to gain such a great gift.. His changelessness is wonderful.. I guess that is why the LDS can't be sure of their salvation.. Their God changes so often no one knows what his requirements will be in a few years.. IHS jim

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by Billyray

That is exactly what he said. Do you want to look at the verses again?

Sure, I can do this a few more times:

http://en.fairmormon.org/Marriage/As...in_marriage%22


soundly refutes both you and cheachea.

Some excerpts for those with too much ADD to read the whole article:

"There is no Biblical obstacle to the doctrine of eternal marriage. This doctrine is consistent with the Bible..

...So what is the scripture that the Sadducees erred by not knowing? We don't know for sure, but there is one scripture which the Sadducees should have known.... if the Sadducees were indeed referring to this story from Tobit, then they did indeed err, not knowing: 1) the scripture which made it clear that Sara was really married to none of the seven, so the seven brothers died unmarried, and 2) the power of God, who could send an angel to see that she married the husband to whom she rightly belonged and by whose priesthood she could be married to him, not to the others, for eternity.

... Christ's answer is simply pointing out that none of these particular seven brothers had entered into valid eternal marriages with the woman.

doesn't verse 30 — "For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage" — just mean that everyone is single in heaven? Absolutely not. And here's why we can say this so confidently.

The New Testament was originally written in Greek, and the tenses of verbs in Greek can convey very different information from those in English. The Greek verb for 'marry' is gameô. In verse 30, it is written in the form gamousin, indicating that it is in third person plural (they) and in the present tense, so it is translated simply as "they marry."

Now it is important to note that the present tense represents an action, something performed at some particular time. It does not represent a condition. We can be sure of this because the Greek does have a verb tense called the 'perfect tense' that represents a present condition resulting from a past completed action. There is no English counterpart to this tense, so it is hard to translate unambiguously, but the point here is that the verbs in Matthew 22:30 are not in the perfect tense. If Matthew had wanted to report that Christ said, "Neither are they now in a married state," the Greek in which he wrote would have let him say so unambiguously. He would have simply written in the present perfect tense, oute gegamêkasin. He did not; so that cannot be what he meant. Christ said nothing about the marital state of those who are in heaven.

Please note that the use of the perfect tense is just standard Greek. Everyone used it. Matthew used it. A few chapters later, Matthew writes "Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you"Matthew 25:34, in which 'blessed' is the perfect-tense Greek eulogêmenoi, literally 'those who are now in a blessed state due to a previously completed blessing,' and 'prepared' is the Greek hêtoimasmênen, meaning 'now in a prepared state due to a previously completed preparation.' We also have Paul writing to the Corinthians, saying "And unto the married I command, yet not I, but the Lord" 1 Corinthians 7:10, where the Greek word translated 'married' is gegamêkasin, meaning 'those who are now in a married state due to their previously completed marriages.' This is the same perfect-tense Greek word that Matthew could have used in Matthew 22:30 if he had wanted to state that there are no married couples in Heaven. By using the present tense, Matthew has Jesus simply saying, "In the resurrection, there are no marriages performed."

Any other questions, now that we have proven the incorrectness of the INCORRECT belief that Christ himself told us that we are not married in heaven?

[Sir]

Jeff,

Once again, your post is only met with silence. Of course, what else can the critics do except respond with a contrary remark. But I think you made smoke come out of their ears with that one.

Nicely done.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

So what is the scripture that the Sadducees erred by not knowing? We don't know for sure, but there is one scripture which the Sadducees should have known.... if the Sadducees were indeed referring to this story from Tobit, then they did indeed err, not knowing: 1) the scripture which made it clear that Sara was really married to none of the seven, so the seven brothers died unmarried. . .

Matthew 22
25 Now there were seven brothers among us. The first one married and died, and since he had no children, he left his wife to his brother.
26 The same thing happened to the second and third brother, right on down to the seventh.

Huh? Are you saying that according to the verses above that none of the seven were married to the woman?

[MacG]

When I read this early in your resource: "So what is the scripture that the Sadducees erred by not knowing? We don't know for sure, but... " I realized that it was going be a speculative stretch. The scriptures they did not know were about the resurrection not marriage in the afterlife. "23 That same day the Sadducees, who say there is no resurrection," (this is the subject of this discourse, ask any English major).

I WILL AGREE that they were trying to trap him but it was about the resurrection which they denied. They thought they were wise in their own eyes and were trying to demonstrate how the resurrection was fallacious based on the example of consummated marriages. I ***ert it was consummated marriages because as your reference points out both Jesus and the Saducees most likely knew about Tobit and there was no question about whether those seven had consummated marriages for the demon killed all of the brothers prior to consummation so if there is a resurrection this poses no legal marriage problem and therefore no trap. The trap can only exist if the multiple marriage scenario they proposed were consummated and legally binding.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

If Matthew had wanted to report that Christ said, "Neither are they now in a married state," the Greek in which he wrote would have let him say so unambiguously. He would have simply written in the present perfect tense, oute gegamêkasin. He did not; so that cannot be what he meant. Christ said nothing about the marital state of those who are in heaven.

Matthew 22
23 That same day the Sadducees, who say there is no resurrection, came to him with a question.
24 “Teacher,” they said, “Moses told us that if a man dies without having children, his brother must marry the widow and raise up offspring for him.
25 Now there were seven brothers among us. The first one married and died, and since he had no children, he left his wife to his brother.
26 The same thing happened to the second and third brother, right on down to the seventh.
27 Finally, the woman died.
28 Now then, at the resurrection, whose wife will she be of the seven, since all of them were married to her?”
29 Jesus replied, “You are in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God.
30 At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage;

Whose wife will she be of the seven, since all of them were married to her?

And the answer to this question is what?

[MacG]

I was looking at this last night but got lost in reading Tobit...

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Whose wife will she be of the seven, since all of them were married to her?
And the answer to this question is what?

The obvious answer to the question "Which of those 7 will be the lady's husband in the resurrection?" is:

None of them. But the reason none of the 7 will be her husband isn't because it's impossible for married people to stay married in the resurrection. People who think it's impossible for married people to stay married in the resurrection, don't understand the scriptures that relate to the issue and don't understand the power of God.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

The obvious answer to the question "Which of those 7 will be the lady's husband in the resurrection?" is:

None of them.

Right. Which is exactly what Christ said and was a direct answer to their question.

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

But the reason none of the 7 will be her husband isn't because it's impossible for married people to stay married in the resurrection. People who think it's impossible for married people to stay married in the resurrection, don't understand the scriptures that relate to the issue and don't understand the power of God.

Which verses are you referring to exactly that teach that men and women are married in heaven?

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Right. Which is exactly what Christ said and was a direct answer to their question.

You forgot the whole "Greek Grammar" issue, which proves that Christ's answer would have used a different word if He'd been saying that there's no such thing as married people in the resurrection. Depending on which Bible translation you read, Christ's answer to "Which of them--those 7 guys--will be her husband in the resurrection?" was "None of them" because "In the resurrection, THEY won't have marriage ceremonies."

Once again, anyone who tries to claim that these verses are saying that all marriages end at death, is wrong. Because these verses don't say that at all.

Which verses are you referring to exactly that teach that men and women are married in heaven?

The verses I was referring to are the verses that those Sadducees were also referring to: The verses in the Book of Tobit. The Sadducees didn't understand the story, as evidenced by their claim that each of those 7 men were really married to the lady. If you read it carefully, each of them died before they had a chance to make the marriage a valid one. Therefore, none of them was really her husband. As for the power of God that the Sadducees (and anti-LDS) were ig norant about, in that same story, God had the power to send to the lady the man who really WAS supposed to be her husband. None of the first 7 were that man. They all died before they could meet all the OT requirements to be husbands.

[nrajeffreturns]

By the way, it seems, from the context, that those Sadducees had ***umed that Jesus was unfamiliar with the Book of Tobit. They "borrowed" from the story and claimed the 7 men were friends of theirs. When they posed their question to Jesus, hoping to catch Him giving a bad answer, I bet they were astonished when they realized that not only was He familiar with this "scripture," He also understood it better than they did.

This must have made them really angry and increased their hatred for Jesus.

[RealFakeHair]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

By the way, it seems, from the context, that those Sadducees had ***umed that Jesus was unfamiliar with the Book of Tobit. They "borrowed" from the story and claimed the 7 men were friends of theirs. When they posed their question to Jesus, hoping to catch Him giving a bad answer, I bet they were astonished when they realized that not only was He familiar with this "scripture," He also understood it better than they did.

This must have made them really angry and increased their hatred for Jesus.

Well, we know it didn't make Joseph Smith jr. angry, he just ignore what Jesus of the Holy Bible said, and started to make up his on story called, eternal marriage, or what I call the eternal ball and chain.

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by RealFakeHair

Well, we know it didn't make Joseph Smith jr. angry,...

Yes, that much is true. Joseph Smith gratefully accepted what he learned from the scriptures.