Interesting conversion story

[MacG]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

We are down to 'none of the 7 mentioned by the Sadducees will be her husband in the resurrection.'

I think our main disagreement is on whether Jesus was confining His comment about the power of God to the question of whether God has the power to resurrect people, or whether He also referred to God's power to keep people married in the resurrection.

The brothers in the Saducees trap had consummated the marriages or there is no trap. At least that is what I thought you had said too.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Sir

Not surprising that you didn't actually answer MY question. You answered the question you wish I had asked. Ironic tactic coming from an anti-Mormon.

I answered your question. Here is your question again.

Originally Posted by Sir

So because man deems something to NOT be scripture, it isn't possible for it to be scripture (ie. truth of God)?

You asked this question in the middle of the discussion on the book of Tobit. And I answered your question in context to that discussion which was that no I don't believe that the book of Tobit is scripture. If you want an answer that is out of context to what we were talking about then yes it is possible for something to be scripture that "man deems something to NOT be scripture". The Bible is a perfect example of this because many people today do not believe that the Bible is scripture and yet it is scripture.


Now how about trying to take a stab at my question for you. It really isn't that hard of a question--but you seem to be avoiding it for some reason.

Do you believe that the "Tobit" is scripture?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

Here's a question for ya, Billy:

Why should the book of *** be included in the canon, but not the book of Tobit?

Because the book of *** is considered scripture by the Jews and is part of the Torah and the book of "Tobit" is not.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

Not necessarily. Their question was "WHICH OF THE SEVEN will be her husband in the resurrection?" and the correct answer to that was exactly what Jesus said: None of them.

And since they were ALL married to her why do you think that Jesus gave us that answer?

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Because the book of *** is considered scripture by the Jews and is part of the Torah and the book of "Tobit" is not.

And you rely on the judgment of the Jews regarding what should be scripture and what shouldn't?

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by Billyray

And since they were ALL married to her why do you think that Jesus gave us that answer?

You don't understand the setup. None of the 7 will be her husband in the resurrection because none of them was really married to her. People who never get married will neither marry nor be given in marriage in the resurrection. They will be like the single beings whose *** is to be a messenger and servant--the angels in heaven.

The Sadducees messed up. They didn't understand the power that God has to make it so people who ARE married before the resurrection, can STAY married IN the resurrection if they want to.

Do you want to be single forever? Or would you consider it heavenly if you didn't have to be eternally single in heaven? Do you want to be like the messenger/servants? Or would you rather be a spouse and parent?

That's what it comes down to. No one will force to be married forever if that doesn't appeal to you. But if you don't want to be single forever, the power of God can make it so "what God has joined together, no one will be able to put asunder."

Note Jesus' answer to the question which of the 7 will be her husband in the resurrection--of those 7, THEY will neither marry nor be given in marriage in the resurrection, but will be like the angels.

He didn't say "And the WOMAN will have to be single forever, too." Because in the story, she had married the 8th man and had lived happily ever after.

[MacG]

1) the scripture which made it clear that Sara was really married to none of the seven, so the seven brothers died unmarried,

It seems we do not understand ancient Jewish marriage law. It appears that the seven husbands that Sara had in Tobit were legitmate marriages afterall:
"3.There were three states of a marriage in the Bible:
a.Stage 1: signing the "ketubbah" contract (Creating the marriage bond)

i. The bride would chose her husband and her father would sign a legal contract with him called a "ketubbah".

ii. Once this is signed the couple is 100% married but do not have sex yet."

Upon further reading Tobit, the text does not say whether the men were brothers. There is no mention of levirate marriage since she was given seven times in marriage it is likely she was living with her father and not her first husband's brothers as the law stipulates.

There is no doubt that the Saducees were talking about a bona fide levirate marriage as they tried to show the folly of the resurrection. Matthew made sure that the reader knew that this is about the resurrection because he parens (who say there is no resurrection) to set off the significance of this particular showdown.

To me it is doubtful that they would give Tobit any time for it reports on the activities of demons which they also did not believe in "(The Sadducees say that there is no resurrection, and that there are neither angels nor spirits, but the Pharisees believe all these things.)" Acts 23:8

The scriptures they knew nothing about were about the resurrection. The marriages (ahem) proposed by the Saducees were valid whether actual or a personalized 'what if' scenario ('demonstrating the absurd by being absurd' as a popular radio host has been known to say). The number seven frequently represents perfection in the bible and the Saducees thought they had set the perfect trap.

MacG

PS
Incidentally, the ketubbah would explain why Joseph sought to divorce Mary even though they had not consummated.

[MacG]

Note Jesus' answer to the question which of the 7 will be her husband in the resurrection--of those 7, THEY will neither marry nor be given in marriage in the resurrection, but will be like the angels.

Men are not given in marriage but women are.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

You don't understand the setup. None of the 7 will be her husband in the resurrection because none of them was really married to her.

Actually they were ALL married to her. It clearly says so in the text. Perhaps you should read it again.

[MacG]

Be sure to see my post near the bottom at this time enti tled "new light. At least to me".

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

Do you want to be single forever?

Tell me how you see a single person verses a married person in heaven. Explain how this is different in your mind.

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

Or would you consider it heavenly if you didn't have to be eternally single in heaven?

No I wouldn't consider it heavenly to be married. Do you? If so why?

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

Do you want to be like the messenger/servants?

You seem to think those who are single are servants and those who are married are not. Can you tell me what you mean exactly?

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

Or would you rather be a spouse and parent?

I am a "spouse and parent". How does a person who is a "spouse and parent" who is not eternally married differ from one who is eternally married? What does that mean to you exactly?

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Tell me how you see a single person verses a married person in heaven. Explain how this is different in your mind.

"The man is not without the woman, in the Lord."
But if you choose the kind of marriage that only lasts "till death do you part," then you WILL be without the woman in the resurrection, because God isn't fond of people shacking up.

No I wouldn't consider it heavenly to be married.

That is disappointing. What have you got against marriage? It was ordained of God, after all.

Do you? If so why?

I think being married is wonderful, because my wife and I have a relationship that isn't duplicated by any other relationship with any other human being. I think it would be awesome if our relationship could last beyond death. I see no good reason why we have to be divorced, or have our marriage annulled, at death.
Death is just a change of location from one place to another. I'd like to stay married WHEREVER I go next.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

But if you choose the kind of marriage that only lasts "till death do you part," then you WILL be without the woman in the resurrection, because God isn't fond of people shacking up.

So from what you said the main difference between a single person in heaven and a married person in heaven is that the married person has sex. Is that correct?

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

That is disappointing. What have you got against marriage? It was ordained of God, after all.

Marriage is a great thing and serves an important function here on earth but those functions are earthly not heavenly.

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

I think being married is wonderful, because my wife and I have a relationship that isn't duplicated by any other relationship with any other human being. I think it would be awesome if our relationship could last beyond death. I see no good reason why we have to be divorced, or have our marriage annulled, at death.
Death is just a change of location from one place to another. I'd like to stay married WHEREVER I go next.

But our relationships with each other such as with parents, spouses, children etc persist after death (***uming that those people are in heaven), so I don't know how this would be any different. Do you?

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Billyray

So from what you said the main difference between a single person in heaven and a married person in heaven is that the married person has sex. Is that correct?


Marriage is a great thing and serves an important function here on earth but those functions are earthly not heavenly.

But our relationships with each other such as with parents, spouses, children etc persist after death (***uming that those people are in heaven), so I don't know how this would be any different. Do you?

Billy, Did God in the Holy Spirit not answer this issue through the Apostle Paul? Did he not make it clear that LOVE above all the other gifts of God continues? It continues when prophecy, tongues, bestowing our goods to feed the poor all cease. So will I still love my family then God calls me to glory? The answer is clear, Yes. We will be together? Again YES (1 Thessalonians 4:17).. IHS jim

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by Billyray

So from what you said the main difference between a single person in heaven and a married person in heaven is that the married person has sex. Is that correct?

Is that really the only thing that's different between your relationship between you and your wife, and you and your Fantasy Football buddies who get together at the sports bar to watch the game on Monday Night?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

Is that really the only thing that's different between your relationship between you and your wife, and you and your Fantasy Football buddies who get together at the sports bar to watch the game on Monday Night?

So what else is different--besides sex--for an eternally married couple in heaven and a couple who was not eternally married?

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by Billyray

So what else is different--besides sex--for an eternally married couple in heaven and a couple who was not eternally married?

For those readers who don't know, people who are happily married to each other and who are bound together in holy matrimony are better than best friends. They can become so close that they plan everything together--their entire future--they sacrifice for each other--they spend more time with each other than with any "friends" or even their own moms and dads and siblings.

Besides what I have mentioned above, there are probably more ways and more reasons that make the inst itution of marriage different from ANY other relationship that a person has with anyone else.

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

For those readers who don't know, people who are happily married to each other and who are bound together in holy matrimony are better than best friends. They can become so close that they plan everything together--their entire future--they sacrifice for each other--they spend more time with each other than with any "friends" or even their own moms and dads and siblings.

Besides what I have mentioned above, there are probably more ways and more reasons that make the inst itution of marriage different from ANY other relationship that a person has with anyone else.

According to my concept of mormonism, the planning used to "build" the earth was done by a committee and not by God and His wife (wives). So that would kill the idea that God and His wife planned the future.. God is in need of nothing:

Acts 17:24-25
God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things

Sacrificing for more than those that hold faith in Him (His Children) is not something that He would be doing for someone who has equal status with Him.

By your own admission in your post God would be closer to His wife than His Father and Mother (His Gods). He would be breaking an eternal Law in doing so by putting anyone or anything before His God.. Look at this reasoning you offered and see how it fails and fails again.. IHS jim

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

For those readers who don't know, people who are happily married to each other and who are bound together in holy matrimony are better than best friends. They can become so close that they plan everything together--their entire future--they sacrifice for each other--they spend more time with each other than with any "friends" or even their own moms and dads and siblings.

Again what is different in heaven for a couple who is eternally married and a couple who is not eternally married?

[Sir]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Again what is different in heaven for a couple who is eternally married and a couple who is not eternally married?

What is different on earth for couples who are married and couples who are not married?

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Sir

What is different on earth for couples who are married and couples who are not married?

A Union where people commit to each at least before the law is recognized by God as a marriage between a man and a woman as God appointed in the scripture and called it good.. Unmarried couples have no commitment at all. Either one can walk away often stranding the other with a financial burden or a burden of minor children that all too often go unsupported.. You know these things why did you ask? IHS jim

[Sir]

Originally Posted by James Banta

A Union where people commit to each at least before the law is recognized by God as a marriage between a man and a woman as God appointed in the scripture and called it good.. Unmarried couples have no commitment at all. Either one can walk away often stranding the other with a financial burden or a burden of minor children that all too often go unsupported.. You know these things why did you ask? IHS jim

So there ARE benefits that married couples have over non-married couples.

That makes Jeff's point.

Thank you.

That's why I asked.

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Sir

So there ARE benefits that married couples have over non-married couples.

That makes Jeff's point.

Thank you.

That's why I asked.

I would never argue that marriage in a world were the commandment to multiply and fill the earth isn't better than leaving women and children unsupported by an absent father. I will also say that Angels were never considered sexual beings.. Jesus says we will be like the angels in heaven.. IHS jim

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by James Banta

I would never argue that marriage in a world were the commandment to multiply and fill the earth isn't better than leaving women and children unsupported by an absent father. I will also say that Angels were never considered sexual beings.. Jesus says we will be like the angels in heaven.. IHS jim

Jesus didn't claim that WE will be like that. He said that "THEY" will be like the angels in heaven. "They" was referring to those people the Sadducees asked Him about.

PS--Do you think that Jesus was including Himself in the "we" that you claim He said? ***uming He said "WE will be like unmarried angels in heaven," was He including Himself in the "we" ?

[theway]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

I thought some of you might be interested in this story. I liked it.

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/7...tory.html?pg=1

"I remember the first time I ever went to a Mormon church. I was 18 years old and a senior in high school. Trust me when I say I had no desire to be a Mormon. My parents divorced when I was a baby, and growing up my mom was a wonderful example of virtue, goodness and working hard to reach your potential. She brought us kids to a local Baptist church, where I learned to love the Lord as a little girl. I am thankful for my upbringing and my mother's powerful influence because I don't know who I would be or where I would be without her. I had just been crowned Miss Teen Nevada, and my dream was to become Miss USA...."

I liked this story, and I sent it to my son on his mission when he asked how I was able to get so many baptisms.

I included this story as an example of the most important of three criteria in which a successful missionary must have.