Angels

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Billyray

That is correct but God is not a created being/angel. Rather God created humans and angels.

But Jesus Christ is identified as an Angel:

Genesis 48:16---King James Version (KJV)

16 The Angel which redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads; and let my name be named on them, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow into a mul***ude in the midst of the earth.

How does that compare to Jame's statement? :

Originally Posted by James Banta View Post----Angels will never become, and never were, human beings. God created the angels, just as He created humanity.

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

But Jesus Christ is identified as an Angel:

Genesis 48:16---King James Version (KJV)

16 The Angel which redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads; and let my name be named on them, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow into a mul***ude in the midst of the earth.

How does that compare to Jame's statement? :

Hey God did create the angles. But the Angel who is the redeemer is God.. It all in the context.. maybe it's that as an LDS you aren't used to using the context of a p***age to understand it.. IHS jim

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

But Jesus Christ is identified as an Angel:

That is correct but Jesus is God and He is not a created being/angel. Angels and humans are created by our creator who is God. God on the other hand is not a created being.

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Billyray

That is correct but Jesus is God and He is not a created being/angel. Angels and humans are created by our creator who is God. God on the other hand is not a created being.

We have to understand that any Spirit was called and angel by the disciples:

Acts 12:15
And they said unto her, Thou art mad. But she constantly affirmed that it was even so. Then said they, It is his angel.

Again the meaning of the word depends on the context of the p***age.. It could be translated as the Spirit of God and not "The Angel" in Genesis 48:16. But is is written as Angel and so it stays Angel.. IHS jim

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Billyray

That is correct but Jesus is God and He is not a created being/angel. Angels and humans are created by our creator who is God. God on the other hand is not a created being.

It is a contradictory statement to say "Angels and humans are created"--and that Jesus is not created--and then to state Jesus is identified as the Angel in Genesis48:16:

Genesis 48:16---King James Version (KJV)

16 The Angel which redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads; and let my name be named on them, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow into a mul***ude in the midst of the earth.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

It is a contradictory statement to say "Angels and humans are created"--and that Jesus is not created--and then to state Jesus is identified as the Angel in Genesis48:16:

Jesus in the OT had many appearances (i.e. Christophany) and in those appearances he appears in many different ways--for example he appeared in bodily form. Yet LDS teach that Jesus did not have a physical body at that point. Isn't that a contradiction according to your beliefs?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Billyray View Post---That is correct but Jesus is God and He is not a created being/angel. Angels and humans are created by our creator who is God. God on the other hand is not a created being.

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post--It is a contradictory statement to say "Angels and humans are created"--and that Jesus is not created--and then to state Jesus is identified as the Angel in Genesis48:16:

Genesis 48:16---King James Version (KJV)

16 The Angel which redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads; and let my name be named on them, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow into a mul***ude in the midst of the earth.

Originally Posted by Billyray

Jesus in the OT had many appearances (i.e. Christophany) and in those appearances he appears in many different ways--for example he appeared in bodily form. Yet LDS teach that Jesus did not have a physical body at that point. Isn't that a contradiction according to your beliefs?

And could you explain to us what this has to do with Jesus being identified as an Angel in the Biblical text--and how that compares to Jame's statement?

Originally Posted by James Banta View Post----Angels will never become, and never were, human beings. God created the angels, just as He created humanity.

Or yours:

Originally Posted by Billyray View Post---That is correct but Jesus is God and He is not a created being/angel. Angels and humans are created by our creator who is God. God on the other hand is not a created being.

Could you explain to us your statement-- Angels and humans are created by our creator who is God. --and compare that to the fact the Angel of Genesis48:16 is identified as Jesus Christ?

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

And could you explain to us what this has to do with Jesus being identified as an Angel in the Biblical text--and how that compares to Jame's statement?




Or yours:



Could you explain to us your statement-- Angels and humans are created by our creator who is God. --and compare that to the fact the Angel of Genesis48:16 is identified as Jesus Christ?

Here you go.. You found a reference that points out that God can also be called a Angel.. Good for you.. You won the point.. NOW here is another for you to work on.. No Angel was ever a human being.. Even in the p***age you quoted Jesus was not yet born into the world. He was not at that time a human spirit, nor a resurrected person.. Congratulations on winning the point.. To bad it doesn't do a thing to support mormonism..

Hey did you know that there is no recorded reference that Smith ever used his handshake method to divide unborn angelic messengers, Resurrected beings, and Satanic deceivers. For all we know everything he said he had seen were all Satanic deceivers..

I guess this again shows Papa that I try hard to be honest in my posts.. Unlike what he had to say about my level of integrity.. IHS jim

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Could you explain to us your statement-- Angels and humans are created by our creator who is God. --and compare that to the fact the Angel of Genesis48:16 is identified as Jesus Christ?

I thought I already touched on this already with my statement below? Did you bother reading it?

Originally Posted by Billyray

Jesus in the OT had many appearances (i.e. Christophany) and in those appearances he appears in many different ways--for example he appeared in bodily form. Yet LDS teach that Jesus did not have a physical body at that point. Isn't that a contradiction according to your beliefs?

Here is a quote from BK commentary that expounds on my statement about this.

". . .The Angel of the Lord found the maidservant in the desert at a spring ... beside the road to Shur (cf. 25:18) on the way to her homeland, Egypt. This is the first reference in the Old Testament to “the Angel of the LORD” (lit., “the Angel of Yahweh”). This Angel is identified with Yahweh in 16:13, as well as in 22:11-12; 31:11, 13; 48:16; Judges 6:11, 16, 22; 13:22-23; Zechariah 3:1-2. And yet the Angel is distinct from Yahweh (Gen. 24:7; 2 Sam. 24:16; Zech. 1:12). Thus “the Angel of the LORD” may refer to a theophany of the preincarnate Christ (cf. Gen. 18:1-2; 19:1; Num. 22:22; Judges 2:1-4; 5:23; Zech. 12:8). . ."

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

And could you explain to us what this has to do with Jesus being identified as an Angel in the Biblical text--and how that compares to Jame's statement?

Gen. 16
7 The angel of the LORD found her by a spring of water in the wilderness, the spring on the way to Shur.
8 And he said, “Hagar, servant of Sarai, where have you come from and where are you going?” She said, “I am fleeing from my mistress Sarai.”
9 The angel of the LORD said to her, “Return to your mistress and submit to her.”
10 The angel of the LORD also said to her, “I will surely multiply your offspring so that they cannot be numbered for mul***ude.”
11 And the angel of the LORD said to her, “Behold, you are pregnant and shall bear a son.You shall call his name Ishmael, because the LORD has listened to your affliction.


Who is "The angel of the LORD" spoken about in these verses?

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Gen. 16
7 The angel of the LORD found her by a spring of water in the wilderness, the spring on the way to Shur.
8 And he said, “Hagar, servant of Sarai, where have you come from and where are you going?” She said, “I am fleeing from my mistress Sarai.”
9 The angel of the LORD said to her, “Return to your mistress and submit to her.”
10 The angel of the LORD also said to her, “I will surely multiply your offspring so that they cannot be numbered for mul***ude.”
11 And the angel of the LORD said to her, “Behold, you are pregnant and shall bear a son.You shall call his name Ishmael, because the LORD has listened to your affliction.


Who is "The angel of the LORD" spoken about in these verses?

DB is part of the Boycott. I would love to talk to you about this point of scripture.. Can Angel as used in this p***age mean spirit? After all in Acts 12 when Rhoda reported to believers in Mary the mother of Mark home they said that she must have seen Peter's ANGEL.. I will toss that out as an explainatio0n for the term Angel being used for God.. It is His angel, meaning His Spirit.. And after all God is Spirit.. IHS jim

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by James Banta

DB is part of the Boycott. I would love to talk to you about this point of scripture.. Can Angel as used in this p***age mean spirit? After all in Acts 12 when Rhoda reported to believers in Mary the mother of Mark home they said that she must have seen Peter's ANGEL.. I will toss that out as an explainatio0n for the term Angel being used for God.. It is His angel, meaning His Spirit.. And after all God is Spirit.. IHS jim

I looked at a couple of commentaries to get their take because the term "The angel of the LORD" is interesting in that it seems to be a distinct messenger of God but then later identifies the term with the LORD. For example in the p***age in Genesis 16:7-11 it appears that this is a messenger but then you go to verse 13 which says "She gave this name to the Lord who spoke to her: “You are the God who sees me,” for she said, “I have now seen the One who sees me.”.

Here is a quote from BK commentary
". . .The Angel of the Lord found the maidservant in the desert at a spring ... beside the road to Shur (cf. 25:18) on the way to her homeland, Egypt. This is the first reference in the Old Testament to “the Angel of the LORD” (lit., “the Angel of Yahweh”). This Angel is identified with Yahweh in 16:13, as well as in 22:11-12; 31:11, 13; 48:16; Judges 6:11, 16, 22; 13:22-23; Zechariah 3:1-2. And yet the Angel is distinct from Yahweh (Gen. 24:7; 2 Sam. 24:16; Zech. 1:12). Thus “the Angel of the LORD” may refer to a theophany of the preincarnate Christ (cf. Gen. 18:1-2; 19:1; Num. 22:22; Judges 2:1-4; 5:23; Zech. 12:8). . ."

In a similar way we see this play out in Genesis 32 where we have another Theophany of the pre-incarnate Christ where initially He is not referred to as God but as the p***age develops it does identify him with God.

Genesis 32
24 So Jacob was left alone, and a man wrestled with him till daybreak.
25 When the man saw that he could not overpower him, he touched the socket of Jacob’s hip so that his hip was wrenched as he wrestled with the man.
26 Then the man said, “Let me go, for it is daybreak.” But Jacob replied, “I will not let you go unless you bless me.”
27 The man asked him, “What is your name?” “Jacob,” he answered.
28 Then the man said, “Your name will no longer be Jacob, but Israel, because you have struggled with God and with humans and have overcome.”
29 Jacob said, “Please tell me your name.”But he replied, “Why do you ask my name?” Then he blessed him there.
30 So Jacob called the place Peniel, saying, “It is because I saw God face to face, and yet my life was spared.”


As I think more about it this make sense (the "angel" in Genesis 16 and the "man" in Genesis 32) are manifestations of God to unworthy humans who could not possibly stand in the direct presence of God--yet here we have two examples where they are face to face.

Note in Genesis 32 it says that this was a "man" and in Hosea 12 it identifies him as an "angel".

Genesis 32:24 So Jacob was left alone, and a man wrestled with him till daybreak.

Hosea 12
2 The Lord has a charge to bring against Judah; he will punish Jacob according to his ways and repay him according to his deeds.
3 In the womb he grasped his brother’s heel; as a man he struggled with God.
4 He struggled with the angel and overcame him; he wept and begged for his favor.

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Billyray

I looked at a couple of commentaries to get their take because the term "The angel of the LORD" is interesting in that it seems to be a distinct messenger of God but then later identifies the term with the LORD. For example in the p***age in Genesis 16:7-11 it appears that this is a messenger but then you go to verse 13 which says "She gave this name to the Lord who spoke to her: “You are the God who sees me,” for she said, “I have now seen the One who sees me.”.

In a similar way we see this play out in Genesis 32 where we have another Theophany of the pre-incarnate Christ where initially He is not referred to as God but as the p***age develops it does identify him with God.

Genesis 32
24 So Jacob was left alone, and a man wrestled with him till daybreak.
25 When the man saw that he could not overpower him, he touched the socket of Jacob’s hip so that his hip was wrenched as he wrestled with the man.
26 Then the man said, “Let me go, for it is daybreak.” But Jacob replied, “I will not let you go unless you bless me.”
27 The man asked him, “What is your name?” “Jacob,” he answered.
28 Then the man said, “Your name will no longer be Jacob, but Israel, because you have struggled with God and with humans and have overcome.”
29 Jacob said, “Please tell me your name.”But he replied, “Why do you ask my name?” Then he blessed him there.
30 So Jacob called the place Peniel, saying, “It is because I saw God face to face, and yet my life was spared.”


As I think more about it this make sense (the "angel" in Genesis 16 and the "man" in Genesis 32) are manifestations of God to unworthy humans who could not possibly stand in the direct presence of God--yet here we have two examples where they are face to face.

This is a very interesting take on the text.. I am willing to bow to the input from one of our LDS posters here (I don't remember which one it was).. The term Angel, can be Jesus Himself in in the form He held before His incarnation.. I learned a lot from Acts 12 as I read it.. I don't know if any of the LDS are curious enough to come here and read our posts. That would be a shame because they could see that we the members of the body of are capable of learning more about God's word and will take such lessons from what ever source the Holy Spirit in His power decides to use.. IHS jim

[alanmolstad]

many, many years ago i was in a normal Sunday school Bible cl***.
I think I was in my teens at the time.

We were looking at the different places where the term "Angel" appears in the text and at some point in the cl*** discussion I raised a question/point about what Angels do.

I heard a girl in my c*** tell me that my question pointed out the difference between "Fallen Angels" and "Evil Spirits"
This was the first time that I had heard that there was a difference, and that the terms are talking about two totally different created beings.

I never had a chance to dig into this idea with the cl***....and to this day im not sure if the idea that the two terms are actually talking about two totally different beings or not?

[alanmolstad]

from my point of view, Fallen Angels, Demons, and Evil Spirits, are all just 3 different names for the same thing.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by James Banta

Just what are these beings? Why are they there? What can they do?

What are they? The Bible tell us that they are spiritual beings that were created to minister for those who shall be heirs of salvation (Hebrews 1:7, 13-14). Again we are taught that angels are an entirely different order of being than humans. Human beings do not become angels after they die. Angels will never become, and never were, human beings. God created the angels, just as He created humanity. The Bible nowhere states that angels are created in the image and likeness of God, as humans are (Genesis 1:26).

Genesis 48:16---King James Version (KJV)

16 The Angel which redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads; and let my name be named on them, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow into a mul***ude in the midst of the earth.