Why is Mormonism false..

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

Wrong. I defend Christianity from attacks on it by ANYONE who attacks it--whether the attackers are atheists, Muslims, Jews, Trinitarians or Calvinists, but I don't go out of my way to create threads doing that. I mostly just read attacks on LDSism by you and your comrades, and then I defend both Christianity and LDSism (since they are often attacked simultaneously) from attacks on them.

For example, if you were to claim that the story of Jesus' birth or death or resurrection never happened, I would defend those tenets of Christianity by stating I believe those events really happened.

If you and all other anti-LDS people stopped posting attacks on LDSism, I am pretty sure I would stop posting defenses.
If your claim is that if pro-LDS would stop defending LDSism then this forum would die, that claim may be true, but it wouldn't be very meaningful. It would be like the Nazis claiming that if the Jews would have just stopped resisting and turned themselves in for extermination, then WW2 would have ended sooner and the world would be a better place.

The problem isn't with the defenders, it's with the aggressors/attackers.

That is just what I do.. If someone say, Joseph Smith, teaches that there are three Gods (History of the Church, Vol. 6, p. 473).. I defend the Christian faith and the Biblical tenant that God is one Lord (Deut 6:4, Mark 12:29).. If Someone say, Joseph Smith teaches that a man can marry more than one woman (D&C 132), I defend the Christian teaching that Church leaders must have just one wife (1Tim 3:2). If some church teaches that they can become a God to a population of people as the Father is our God ( Joseph Fielding Smith Jr., Doctrines of Salvation, Vol.1, p.69 - p.70, p.97 - p.98). I defend Christianity that Only God is God and He who knows all things doesn't know of any other Gods (Isaiah 44:8).. When a church teaches that God became God though obedience to His God's laws and ordinances (History of the Church, Vol. 6, p. 302-303). I defend the Christian faith that God has been God from everlasting to everlasting (Psalm 90:2). When a church teaches that the Father has a body of flesh and bone (Doctrine and Covenants 130:22). I defend the truth that God is Spirit, and Invisible, and that a spirit hasn't a tangible body (John 4:24, Col 1:15, Luke 24:39).. When a church teaches that obedience to laws and ordinances is the way to eternal life (AofF 3), I must defend the Christian faith that salvation is obtained only by the Grace of God though Faith in Jesus and NOT BY WORKS. (Eph 2:8-9). I insist as the Bible teaches that if salvation is by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace (Romans 11:6).

You therefore are defending a false religion you have called Christianity that is not Christian at all.. Yes you Don't like Calvinism because it claims that God has pre-chosen who will be saved and who will be ****ed. But If Jesus isn't a liar and He Is actually present before Abraham existed is He also not also present at the end of the age? Does he not know all things even what happens at the end of the age? Then He knows who will and who will not accept the gift of grace to eternal life through faith in Jesus.. Than is the main problem you have with Calvinism is how much you and the LDS church wish to limit God.. Christian teach that God knows even the number of hairs on our heads (Matthew 10:30). If such a trivial matter in important to Him isn't the matter of your eternal destiny more so? Would he also know if you would turn to Him or rebel and **** yourself to the Lake of Fire?

Isaiah 46:10
Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure

Surely you don't doubt that God know all things and the truth of His promises stand good for all time? If He knows all things He knows who will be His and who will not.. That is all Calvinist teach in their doctrine of Eternal security and Predestination. Doesn't the Bible teach predestination?

Rom 8:21
For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Those He knew from the beginning He predestined to be conformed to the image of Jesus who was the firstborn in the resurrection of all who would believe.. Jeff I see one a truth in your post.. We that defend the faith have no problem here, it is those that would destroy the truth with their aggression against it that have a problem.. IHS jim

[nrajeffreturns]

But Jim, Joseph Smith isn't creating threads attacking Christianity or any subset of it. If he ever does start doing that, you are free to defend any belief you think needs defending.

Similarly, Pastor Roger Williams, WHEN HE WAS ALIVE, made statements that you might consider to be attacks on Christianity. Statements such as:

"..."There is no regularly-cons***uted church on earth, nor any person authorized to administer any Church ordinance: nor can there be, until new apostles are sent by the great Head of the Church, for whose coming I am seeking...the apostasy ... hath so far corrupted all, that there can be no recovery out of that apostasy until Christ shall send forth new apostles to plant churches anew."

But since he's dead, and isn't creating threads, we don't need to create threads defending Christianity from his attacks, right?

[RealFakeHair]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

But Jim, Joseph Smith isn't creating threads attacking Christianity or any subset of it. If he ever does start doing that, you are free to defend any belief you think needs defending.

Similarly, Pastor Roger Williams, WHEN HE WAS ALIVE, made statements that you might consider to be attacks on Christianity. Statements such as:

"..."There is no regularly-cons***uted church on earth, nor any person authorized to administer any Church ordinance: nor can there be, until new apostles are sent by the great Head of the Church, for whose coming I am seeking...the apostasy ... hath so far corrupted all, that there can be no recovery out of that apostasy until Christ shall send forth new apostles to plant churches anew."

But since he's dead, and isn't creating threads, we don't need to create threads defending Christianity from his attacks, right?

Was that the same Roger Williams who sang, 'Trailers for sale or rent.'?

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

But Jim, Joseph Smith isn't creating threads attacking Christianity or any subset of it. If he ever does start doing that, you are free to defend any belief you think needs defending.

Similarly, Pastor Roger Williams, WHEN HE WAS ALIVE, made statements that you might consider to be attacks on Christianity. Statements such as:

"..."There is no regularly-cons***uted church on earth, nor any person authorized to administer any Church ordinance: nor can there be, until new apostles are sent by the great Head of the Church, for whose coming I am seeking...the apostasy ... hath so far corrupted all, that there can be no recovery out of that apostasy until Christ shall send forth new apostles to plant churches anew."

But since he's dead, and isn't creating threads, we don't need to create threads defending Christianity from his attacks, right?

You can say it was Jesus that said "they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: “they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.” (JSH 19) That quote was never included in Smith's handwritten history of 1832. It wasn't added until the 1842 version of the first was published.. So who really came up with this attack on the Christian body? It looks more like it was Smith's work and not a statement from God..

As for Roger Williams, he was a fallen man and made many a mistake in his life this was just one of them.. Like the LDS in making this statement Williams denyed the promises of Jesus that after Jesus established His Church it would stand even it it were attacked by the gates of hell.. In the establishment of the Catholic church I can say that the Church was attacked by the gates of hell.. She survived! It is sad that a man like Williams couldn't identify Her..

You are right we don't need to discuss Williams at all.. He didn't speak for the Church, or the Lord.. He spoke for Himself.. I disagree with him, but I will allow him to be judged by God and not me.. At least Williams didn't set himself up as a prophet or an Apostle to recreate what God said could be destroyed.. IHS jim

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by RealFakeHair

Was that the same Roger Williams who sang, 'Trailers for sale or rent.'?

Yes, except that he changed his last name to "MILLER" when he did the song....

[RealFakeHair]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

Yes, except that he changed his last name to "MILLER" when he did the song....

How did I get that so wrong? Okay, now I remember, Roger Williams was the conductor, I can't remember which rail-road?

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by RealFakeHair

How did I get that so wrong? Okay, now I remember, Roger Williams was the conductor, I can't remember which rail-road?

I have gotten them mixed up before, too.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by James Banta

That is just what I do.. If someone say, Joseph Smith, teaches that there are three Gods (History of the Church, Vol. 6, p. 473).. I defend the Christian faith and the Biblical tenant that God is one Lord (Deut 6:4, Mark 12:29)..

1 John 5:7---King James Version (KJV)

7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

Which one of those three do you believe is not a God?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

1 John 5:7---King James Version (KJV)

7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

Which one of those three do you believe is not a God?

All three are God.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Billyray

All three are God.

And only One is the God of Jesus Christ:


Hebrews 1:2-9----King James Version (KJV)


2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.

8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.


Ephesians 1:17---King James Version (KJV)

17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:


1 Peter 1:3---King James Version (KJV)


3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

And only One is the God of Jesus Christ:

I am not sure what point you are trying to make. Could you expound for me.

[dberrie2000]

[quote] Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post----And only One is the God of Jesus Christ:


Hebrews 1:2-9----King James Version (KJV)


2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.

8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.


Ephesians 1:17---King James Version (KJV)

17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:


1 Peter 1:3---King James Version (KJV)


3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

Originally Posted by Billyray

I am not sure what point you are trying to make. Could you expound for me.

My point is Jesus had the same God and Father as mankind does--and it is not God the Son:


John 20:17---King James Version (KJV)


17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

My point is Jesus had the same God and Father as mankind does--and it is not God the Son:

But who is the God of the OT according to Mormonism? The Father or the Son?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post----My point is Jesus had the same God and Father as mankind does--and it is not God the Son:


John 20:17---King James Version (KJV)

17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Originally Posted by Billyray

But who is the God of the OT according to Mormonism? The Father or the Son?

Both. It was usually Christ speaking in the OT--and the NT--when Deity is identified. But the only "one God" ever identified in the NT was God the Father:


1 Corinthians 8:6---King James Version (KJV)

6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Billyray

But who is the God of the OT according to Mormonism? The Father or the Son?

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Both. . .

Below is a quote from the LDS Bible Dictionary

LDS Bible Dictionary
Jehovah
"The covenant or proper name of the God of Israel. It denotes the “Unchangeable One,” “the eternal I AM” (Ex. 6:3; Ps. 83:18; Isa. 12:2; 26:4). The original pronunciation of this name has possibly been lost, as the Jews, in reading, never mentioned it but subs***uted one of the other names of God, usually Adonai. Probably it was pronounced Jahveh, or Yahveh. In the KJV, the Jewish custom has been followed, and the name is generally denoted by Lord or God, printed in small capitals. Jehovah is the premortal Jesus Christ. . ."

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

But the only "one God" ever identified in the NT was God the Father:

You know that is not true DB. Jesus is clearly identified as God in the NT.

John 20:28 Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”

BTW who is Thomas' God according to Thomas?

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

1 John 5:7---King James Version (KJV)

7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

Which one of those three do you believe is not a God?

DB you must have a short attentions span.. The Father, Son , and the Holy Spirit are the one true God.. Therefore all three of these divine Persons are God.. I thought you have been aware of that doctrine whether you believe it or not.. Your rejection of that God is what makes you non, even anti Christian.. IHS jim

[James Banta]

[QUOTE=dberrie2000;148642]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post----And only One is the God of Jesus Christ:


Hebrews 1:2-9----King James Version (KJV)


2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.

8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.


Ephesians 1:17---King James Version (KJV)

17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:


1 Peter 1:3---King James Version (KJV)


3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,



My point is Jesus had the same God and Father as mankind does--and it is not God the Son:


John 20:17---King James Version (KJV)


17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Are you actually denying the divinity of JESUS in this post? That is what it looks like.. If that is what you believe you have named your church after a false teacher One that Claimed the ***le used by God as Him name.. YHWH, "I AM" (John 8:58).. So if Jesus isn't the second Person of the one single Being of God, He was either MAD, or a liar.. Which are you saying He is? IHS jim