Why is Mormonism false..

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Your two statement conflict. Can you explain that?

Yes. Yes, I can explain that. Stephen's vision plays a part in it.

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

Yup. Why do you deny the scriptures by claiming otherwise?

When one deity says to another deity "Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool" then it seems obvious that things will change, as soon as the one deity makes the other's enemies his footstool.

Jeff, Christians DON'T DENY that there are more than one person who is God. We have always said that God is the Father, Son., and Holy Spirit.. How often have I explained that to you. You still insist that the Father is a God that the Son is a God, and that the Holy Spirit is a God.. God says that He is one Lord.. So The Father, one person, the Son, a second person, and the Holy Spirit, a third person, are one God.. They are eternally God, One was not formed by the other.. Yes the Father has a place for the Son, at His right hand. He will put down all His enemies. That in No way contradicts the statements of God as give to us By the Holy Spirit through the prophets that the Lord our God is One Lord, That no God was formed after one was already God. That God is s t u p i d and doesn't know about some other true God's existence.. All it means is the Father has a place for the Son and will put down His enemies.. Just what has changed in your mind? The location from which Jesus will rule? IHS jim

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

Yes. Yes, I can explain that. Stephen's vision plays a part in it.

Here are you two prior statements.

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

Wrong. I believe there is a OT verse that quotes one deity telling another to sit beside Him until a specific event occurs. The implication is that things will chance when the event occurs.

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

Maybe in Moses' time there was no God beside Yahweh, but from NT times onward, things seem to have changed:

Can you explain what you meant?

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by James Banta

Jeff, Christians DON'T DENY that there are more than one person who is God.

But SOME Christians--the Trinitarian ones--DO deny that the separate persons can sit on thrones next to each other, because Trinitarians believe that all 3 persons are one BEING. Like a human with multiple personality disorder.
In my personal opinion, that doctrine is an abomination in God's sight.

Yes the Father has a place for the Son, at His right hand.

How can that happen if they are both the same being?

All it means is the Father has a place for the Son and will put down His enemies.. Just what has changed in your mind? The location from which Jesus will rule? IHS jim

That is a good point you raised there. If Jesus will reign over this earth after it's been turned into a glorified Paradise, then His Father will be somewhere else, reigning over the places that Jesus won't be reigning over.

Anyway, if one of the persons (Jehovah acc. to the Psalm) told Adonai to sit on His right until Jehovah had made Adonai's enemies His footstool, then once that was done, Adonai was no longer going to be on the right of Jehovah. So in my mind, THAT is what has changed. And indeed, in the NT we see when it happened. Heb 1:13. From that point on, Jesus is on the right hand of His Father. That's what Stephen saw.

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Here are you two prior statements.


Can you explain what you meant?

Yes. Yes I can.

[Novato]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

Yes. Yes I can.

Dear Jeff,

Just got back and I see you are the last LDS poster on this board of misguided EV individuals.

Jeff you are liaising with those who have nothing to offer anyone.

Fake Hair whose only purpose is to denigrate the Lord’s Church and, even worse, denigrate the Lord’s chosen prophet for this dispensation, in the most demeaning manner. Had Fake Hair been around in 1844 I’m pretty sure which mob he would have been a member of.

Then there is poor old James who my heart reaches out to. I pray for him often.

Then Billy, another lost brother who desperately attacks in the hope of proving to somebody, anybody, especially himself, that his decision might be at least, partially, correct.

This board needs to die just as the Concerned Christians board died when LDS posters abandoned it and the management decided to ban LDS postings. They don’t even come up on the first two pages of Search Engine listings anymore.

I know it can be fun, but your involvement lifts the SEO ranking of this board and is a little selfish. It needs to be abandoned by the saints and it will die a quick death.

Fond regards,

Novato

[MacG]

Heya Novato!

Right here in this thread Sir and theway posted - what are they? Chopped liver?
How do you know what is in Jeff's heart?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Novato

Then Billy, another lost brother who desperately attacks in the hope of proving to somebody, anybody, especially himself, that his decision might be at least, partially, correct.

Fond regards,

Novato

Novato if what you say is true then certainly you can defend your position from the Bible. The problem is that rather than trying to do just that you simply resort to personal attacks. Perhaps you should ponder this for a while and try to justify why you do this because it is obvious to any Christian here on this board that if you were truly right you would be able to point us to God's word to support your position.

[James Banta]

[nrajeffreturns;148166]But SOME Christians--the Trinitarian ones--DO deny that the separate persons can sit on thrones next to each other, because Trinitarians believe that all 3 persons are one BEING. Like a human with multiple personality disorder.
In my personal opinion, that doctrine is an abomination in God's sight.

Trinitarians believe that there are three Persons that are one God.. Three separate and distinct Persons.. These three Person are one Being, they are the same nature, the same essence. One in will, thought, righteousness, sharing the same Being.. One God three Persons.. That is why it's called a Trinitarian meaning three.


Trinity
Also called Blessed Trinity, Holy Trinity. the union of three persons (Father, Son, and Holy Ghost) in one Godhead, or the threefold personality of the one Divine Being.

a group of three; triad.

the state of being threefold or triple. (Dictionary.com)

By that definition the LDS church is Trinitarian.. Do you not hold that there is a "union of three persons (Father, Son, and Holy Ghost) in one Godhead"? According to the dictionary that is a trinitarian belief..

How can that happen if they are both the same being?

It can happen because they are not the same Person.. They are the same God the same Being.. You are thinking of natural beings and not the Divine Being..

That is a good point you raised there. If Jesus will reign over this earth after it's been turned into a glorified Paradise, then His Father will be somewhere else, reigning over the places that Jesus won't be reigning over.

Just where does it say that? IFf we conclude that they are three independent Gods then we have broken the first of the 10 commandments in the Bible -

"You shall have no other gods besides me."� (Deut 5:7).

So, it stands to reason that they cannot be independent.

To summarize Jesus says "I and the Father are one"� (John 10:38, 17:11,21)

"I am in the Father and the Father is in me"� (John 14:11) .

This means Jesus and the Father must be the same God but distinct. Now let’s consider what Jesus says about the Holy Spirit:

"I will send the Spirit of truth" for he lives with and will be in you" I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you"�. (John 14:17-18, 20)

Now we have to solve this riddle: How can the Father and Son be within each other at once? How can the Son and the Holy Spirit be in me at once? The answer is: Only if they are one and the same yet distinct persons. And it stands to reason as we put together these facts that they are the same God, but different persons. Can I re***ure with the following: it doesn’t matter if we can’t imagine how this works in our minds! It is perplexing because there is nothing we have seen physically in our lives that can accurately illustrate this mystery. However, it is important to realize it is an eternal truth which the Bible has revealed to us! It’s not man made. There is a way that seems right to a man but the end thereof are the ways of death (Proverbs 14:12).. Stop worrying about How God can be One Lord and yet three persons and trust that He said that is the way it is and He doesn't lie.. You are trying to examine the divine by human abilities.. All you are doing is breaking the commandment to have no other Gods before YHWH is saying that you believe in three Gods..

Anyway, if one of the persons (Jehovah acc. to the Psalm) told Adonai to sit on His right until Jehovah had made Adonai's enemies His footstool, then once that was done, Adonai was no longer going to be on the right of Jehovah. So in my mind, THAT is what has changed. And indeed, in the NT we see when it happened. Heb 1:13. From that point on, Jesus is on the right hand of His Father. That's what Stephen saw.

Stephen saw Jesus on the right hand of the invisible God.. Stephen never saw the Father. He saw Jesus and Him on God's right hand. All the Bible must be true or none of it is.. Therefore the Person who Jesus stood by was invisible and only in His glory was He perceived by Stephen.. If that is not so then Paul was NOT an Apostle but a liar as he taught us that :

Col 1:12-15
Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature

So what part is the truth to you and what part is a lie? Did Stephen see the Father or Did He see Jesus on the right hand of the invisible God? I believe that second because all the scripture in the truth for me not just the parts of it I want to be the truth.. IHS jim

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by Novato

Dear Jeff,

Just got back and I see you are the last LDS poster on this board of misguided EV individuals.

Jeff you are liaising with those who have nothing to offer anyone.

Fake Hair whose only purpose is to denigrate the Lord’s Church and, even worse, denigrate the Lord’s chosen prophet for this dispensation, in the most demeaning manner. Had Fake Hair been around in 1844 I’m pretty sure which mob he would have been a member of.

Then there is poor old James who my heart reaches out to. I pray for him often.

Then Billy, another lost brother who desperately attacks in the hope of proving to somebody, anybody, especially himself, that his decision might be at least, partially, correct.

This board needs to die just as the Concerned Christians board died when LDS posters abandoned it and the management decided to ban LDS postings. They don’t even come up on the first two pages of Search Engine listings anymore.

I know it can be fun, but your involvement lifts the SEO ranking of this board and is a little selfish. It needs to be abandoned by the saints and it will die a quick death.

Fond regards,

Novato

I appreciate your concerns and the reasoning behind them. I think you have some good points. In defense of FakeHair, I think the times his posts contain insults he is often less than serious, and sometimes he is self-deprecating. I think he is smart enough to realize when we have a valid point, and his jokes are a way of acknowledging it without actually admitting it.

I am not quite convinced that we should cause this forum to go the way of CC. CC was run and moderated by tyranny, and killed itself. This forum allows fair fights, where the poster with the best argument can win. I think Mac has made some valid points. At least I am unable to refute them all. Another of the biggest things this site has going for it is there is no Brian, Yak, or "Holy Christian Andy" or "This is the wrong forum for that" Theo here.

I find the fair, open debates to be a good thing, and Jill deserves credit for allowing it. When Cram bans me, it's good to have this place to come to and continue defending the church, or just to document Cram's sometimes- unfair moderating.

Of the two sites, I would vote that Cram deserves to be euthanized, not this site.

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Novato

Dear Jeff,

Just got back and I see you are the last LDS poster on this board of misguided EV individuals.

Jeff you are liaising with those who have nothing to offer anyone.

Fake Hair whose only purpose is to denigrate the Lord’s Church and, even worse, denigrate the Lord’s chosen prophet for this dispensation, in the most demeaning manner. Had Fake Hair been around in 1844 I’m pretty sure which mob he would have been a member of.

Then there is poor old James who my heart reaches out to. I pray for him often.

Then Billy, another lost brother who desperately attacks in the hope of proving to somebody, anybody, especially himself, that his decision might be at least, partially, correct.

This board needs to die just as the Concerned Christians board died when LDS posters abandoned it and the management decided to ban LDS postings. They don’t even come up on the first two pages of Search Engine listings anymore.

I know it can be fun, but your involvement lifts the SEO ranking of this board and is a little selfish. It needs to be abandoned by the saints and it will die a quick death.

Fond regards,

Novato

Thank you for your kind personal thoughts for me. I have made it my task to show many of the problems with the LDS church and ask you and other TBMs to explain them. Jeff has been trying to do this through his understanding of the physical world. While his points are valid for humanity they fail short of being mandated on the eternal Being of God. The only way to understand the Union of the Being of God as the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is through trusting God's word that He is the Lord our God who is one One Lord. Moses received that proclamation from God (Deut 6:4), and while Jesus walked among us in His humanity He confirmed that doctrine (Mark 12:29). God announced His singularity though Isaiah saying that NO GOD WAS FORMED BEFORE HIM, and no God would be formed after Him (Isaiah 43:10-11). He said that He (Who knows all things) doesn't know that any other God exists (Isaiah 44:8)..

The question then must be Is the Father the only true God or were Jesus and the Holy Spirit always there with the Father as God? The Genesis account would have us see that God is not just one Person. In the account given to Moses God explains that nature by addressing Himself as "US" (And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness (Genesis 1:26)).. As I have been reminded by many an LDS here on WM The word God (Elohim) has a plural content in it's meaning.. That plural meaning is fulfilled in the God of the Bible the Self Existent, eternal Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

If you see the death of WM, fine that is your perception. No one is forcing you to come here.. You are a free person and can choose to allow this site to die, at least to you.. Those of us who have found a place here to lift our Lord's name, to praise His works on our behalf. To understand His nature as revealed in the Bible. We will keep this site active.. Even if that means we talk only to others who want to conform their faith to the doctrines of the whole of the Bible, we will be here to do so.. You are invited to come read what we teach. You are invited to post your own thoughts on the differing subjects. Or you are invited to leave. Which ever you chose may God continue working on your heart as we pray for you and all those who reject the whole word of God found in the Bible.. I remain IHS jim

[theway]

.....................

[theway]

Originally Posted by MacG

Heya Novato!

Right here in this thread Sir and theway posted - what are they? Chopped liver?
How do you know what is in Jeff's heart?

Actually, I mostly agree with Novato, and there are times when I would wish Mormon Posters would just not respond.
Because as we all know, they need us, we do not need them. Without us, this forum would die and the Critics would be forced to go elsewhere. So you know how bored I would have to be to be here posting(plus being banned from the other site again)
But it's for my benefit I am here, as being here sharpens my skills in doing missionary work, LDS Church lessons, and talks.
I mostly take what the Critics say, and rightly ***ume the opposite to be true.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by theway

Because as we all know, they need us, we do not need them. Without us, this forum would die and the Critics would be forced to go elsewhere.

Without us (Christians), this forum would die and the Cultist (Mormons) would be forced to go elsewhere.

I am not sure why you go on and on about this other than it gives you something to talk about other than trying to defend your false religion.

[Pa Pa]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Without us (Christians), this forum would die and the Cultist (Mormons) would be forced to go elsewhere.

I am not sure why you go on and on about this other than it gives you something to talk about other than trying to defend your false religion.

Without Mormons responding it would die...look at the numbers it is already dying.

[theway]

Originally Posted by Pa Pa

Without Mormons responding it would die...look at the numbers it is already dying.

True... True... Look at the CC forum as the perfect test case.

As soon as there were no more LDS, then the criticizing "Christians" left as well. After that the only thing that could be heard were the virtual crickets.

The site banned Mormons because the LDS were starting to convince people looking in over there that we were correct. Even the owner of the site at that time said that he started to have second thoughts about what he was doing.

Now before Critics here get all "verklempt" and start with they"Nu-uhs" and "taint-sos!", this was the first reason he used before he later deleted it, and instead now claims it was because he only wanted GAs in the church to respond. Of course when all the LDS and Christians alike left, he changed his reason for not allowing the LDS yet again. But now it is nothing more than a lame excuse.

I remember how the Critics were so happy that no Mormons were allowed anymore, for they declaimed that they could now explain Mormonism to those who were questioning Mormonism without the interference from actual Mormons. It turns out that there never was any "questioning Mormons" just "Mormons who asked questions" which they never had the answers to.

What's prophetic was that one of the Critics had his ***essment correct, only in his usual Critic way... (Backwards)
He claimed that the LDS who posted there would soon get so bored with only being able to talk to themselves and not being able to talk to them, that they would give it up entirely.

What's ironic is that the only reason Walter Martin has only lasted as long as it has, is because of the Mormon Posters who came over here from CC, and then followed by the Critics from over there. At that time I remember that this website was on its last heartbeat before then.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Pa Pa

Without Mormons responding it would die...look at the numbers it is already dying.

And without Christians responding it would die as well. So what is the point exactly?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by theway

The site banned Mormons because the LDS were starting to convince people looking in over there that we were correct.

No doubt Mormons may CONVINCE some that it is true even though it is a false religion. The same is true of other false religions/movements. But just because you convince some people doesn't make Mormonism true. Some people will be conned in one way or the other.

[theway]

Originally Posted by Billyray

No doubt Mormons may CONVINCE some that it is true even though it is a false religion. The same is true of other false religions/movements. But just because you convince some people doesn't make Mormonism true. Some people will be conned in one way or the other.

Well... Using your ****ogy, it still makes the reason for AntiMormon websites contradictory.

Because from your point of view, Lurkers were being conned in one way (the LDS way) but not conned in the other way (the Critic Christian way)

Considering also that studies from non LDS have born out that the more Mormons learn about the Bible and the history of their Church, the stronger they become in their faith.

That makes no matter what you guys do as Critics a Lose-lose scenario.

LOL, it seems the only way you can win is if you actually defend the LDS Church and then people get put-off by your example as an LDS.

[Pa Pa]

Originally Posted by Billyray

And without Christians responding it would die as well. So what is the point exactly?

As well as all sites like this, bent on belittling other faiths. I wish all sites had test to never allow the teachings of John Calvin and his follows...it is an insult to all Christian ideals.

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by Billyray

And without Christians responding it would die as well. So what is the point exactly?

That is fallacious. This site, like Carm and CC, was created so that you guys could attack LDS doctrines/leaders/people, and pro-LDS posters were allowed to defend themselves.

So it's not really you guys who are responding--you're the attackers, and any pro-LDS who happen by are the responders--they're responding to the attacks from you guys.

So if anti-LDS quit attacking, then yes, this site would die. Because there would no longer be stuff the pro-LDS need to respond to.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

So if anti-LDS quit attacking, then yes, this site would die. Because there would no longer be stuff the pro-LDS need to respond to.

If either side went away then this board would die. So again what is the point that you and others are trying to make exactly?

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by Billyray

If either side went away then this board would die. So again what is the point that you and others are trying to make exactly?

Maybe it's this: If you attackers would stop attacking, then us defenders would see no more need to defend, and this board would die.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

Maybe it's this: If you attackers would stop attacking, then us defenders would see no more need to defend, and this board would die.

But you attack Christianity so I could say the same about you AND as I said before if either side dropped out the board would die, so I still don't see the point that you are trying to make.

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by Billyray

But you attack Christianity

Wrong. I defend Christianity from attacks on it by ANYONE who attacks it--whether the attackers are atheists, Muslims, Jews, Trinitarians or Calvinists, but I don't go out of my way to create threads doing that. I mostly just read attacks on LDSism by you and your comrades, and then I defend both Christianity and LDSism (since they are often attacked simultaneously) from attacks on them.

For example, if you were to claim that the story of Jesus' birth or death or resurrection never happened, I would defend those tenets of Christianity by stating I believe those events really happened.

If you and all other anti-LDS people stopped posting attacks on LDSism, I am pretty sure I would stop posting defenses.
If your claim is that if pro-LDS would stop defending LDSism then this forum would die, that claim may be true, but it wouldn't be very meaningful. It would be like the Nazis claiming that if the Jews would have just stopped resisting and turned themselves in for extermination, then WW2 would have ended sooner and the world would be a better place.

The problem isn't with the defenders, it's with the aggressors/attackers.