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Thread: My New Favorite Quote of WM Forums

  1. #1
    Sir
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    Default My New Favorite Quote of WM Forums

    "Small sins like telling a[n] ugly person how good they look is as serious before a Holy God as murder or adultery." - James Banta

  2. #2
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir View Post
    "Small sins like telling a[n] ugly person how good they look is as serious before a Holy God as murder or adultery." - James Banta
    Are some sins OK in your mind and others are not?

  3. #3
    James Banta
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    Are some sins OK in your mind and others are not?
    As much as sir will quote p***ages of James 2 he refuses to believe anything that disagrees with what his LDS teachers have told him. James is clear that "Whosoever keeps the whole Law, yet offends in ONE POINT, is guilty of all".. It doesn't matter what the Bible teaches sir just won't believe this teaching. Even though it is right in front of him he disbelieves that James is making it clear that no one can say they have no sin, and no one can say they are less of a sinner than anyone else.. We are all guilty before God of breaking His whole Law.. Sir is no more or less of a sinner than you or than I.. The trouble is he is blind to the ways of God in this matter. He has his fingers in his ears and his eyes tightly shut to the truth laying right there in front of him.. Sir's hatred for the word of God is written by his own hand belittling this teaching, IHS jim
    Last edited by James Banta; 10-12-2013 at 09:15 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by James Banta View Post
    As much as sir will quote p***ages of James 2 he refuses to believe anything that disagrees with what his LDS teachers have told him. James is clear that "Whosoever keeps the whole Law, yet offends in ONE POINT, is guilty of all".. It doesn't matter what the Bible teaches sir just won't believe this teaching. Even though it is right in front of him he disbelieves that James is making it clear that no one can say they have no sin, and no one can say they are less of a sinner than anyone else.. We are all guilty before God of breaking His whole Law.. Sir is no more or less of a sinner than you or than I.. The trouble is he is blind to the ways of God in this matter. He has his fingers in his ears and his eyes tightly shut to the truth laying right there in front of him.. Sir's hatred for the word of God is written by his own hand belittling this teaching, IHS jim
    No James... It's just your constant misunderstanding of the scriptures is what is making your argument faulty here. All sins are not the same!
    I will try to keep it as simple as I can in this first post.

    First:
    Perfection is required for entrance into Heaven.
    Psalm 24:3-5
    3 Who shall ascend into the hill of the Lord? or who shall stand in his holy place?
    4 He that hath clean hands, and a pure heart; who hath not lifted up his soul unto vanity, nor sworn deceitfully.
    5 He shall receive the blessing from the Lord, and righteousness from the God of his salvation.

    Second:
    Those who are capable if committing sin, have all sinned, even if it was just one very small sin. Therefore no one will get to Heaven based on their own works.

    1 John 1:8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

    Third:
    there are different degrees of sin.
    1 John 5:16-17 If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask, and God will give him life—to those who commit sins that do not lead to death. There is sin that leads to death; I do not say that one should pray for that. All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that does not lead to death.

    John 19:11 Jesus answered him, “You would have no authority over me at all unless it had been given you from above. Therefore he who delivered me over to you has the greater sin.”

    Matthew 22:36-40 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?” And he said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment. And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets.”

    Fourth:
    Different degrees of sins require different repentance processes and different lengths of time depending on the Lord's Will for that person. One sin is so serious that they can not be forgiven at all; neither in this life or the world to come.

    2 Chronicles 7:14 If my people who are called by my name humble themselves, and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and heal their land.

    John 9:31 Now we know that God heareth not sinners: but if any man be a worshipper of God, and doeth his will, him he heareth

    Revelation 2:5 Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent, and do the works you did at first. If not, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent.

    Matthew 12:31
    Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven people, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven.

    Fifth:
    One can become perfect again and forgiven of by Lord. This is based mostly on the knowledge and truth we have received; but also on the seriousness of the sin, and the repentance processes we must go through.
    Last edited by theway; 10-12-2013 at 11:38 AM.

  5. #5
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by theway View Post
    Fifth:
    One can become perfect again and forgiven of by Lord. This is based mostly on the knowledge and truth we have received; but also on the seriousness of the sin, and the repentance processes we must go through.
    You don't even believe what you yourself have written. You don't believe murderers can be completely forgiven and be exalted. Now do you?

  6. #6
    Pa Pa
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir View Post
    "Small sins like telling a[n] ugly person how good they look is as serious before a Holy God as murder or adultery." - James Banta
    He has done this many times...why is the mystery.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    You don't even believe what you yourself have written. You don't believe murderers can be completely forgiven and be exalted. Now do you?
    What I believe is immaterial. The Lord states only one sin is unforgivable. I am to forgive EVERYONE, it is up to Him to forgive who he will.
    But as I noted, it all depends on one's knowledge, because even that one unforgivable sin is completely based on our level of faith and knowledge. It is impossible to truly deny what we do not have a perfect knowledge of.
    Based on the knowledge level demonstrated by Critics here, I don't think any of you have anything to worry about.
    Last edited by theway; 10-12-2013 at 05:34 PM.

  8. #8
    nrajeffreturns
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    It really is interesting to see the extremes that Calvinism can take a person's soteriology to. Think, for a minute, of how Judgment Day, Calvinism Style, would go:

    God/Jesus/Holy Spirit: "Adolf Hitler, you were responsible for the murder of over 6 million people while on earth. You will spend eternity in hell. Next person, please."

    "Fred Johnson, once, at a time when your wife was feeling depressed and unappreciated, you committed the mortal sin of cheering her up by telling her she looked pretty, but she really wasn't that pretty. For that lie, you shall spend eternity in hell with Hitler."

  9. #9
    MacG
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    Quote Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns View Post
    It really is interesting to see the extremes that Calvinism can take a person's soteriology to. Think, for a minute, of how Judgment Day, Calvinism Style, would go:

    God/Jesus/Holy Spirit: "Adolf Hitler, you were responsible for the murder of over 6 million people while on earth. You will spend eternity in hell. Next person, please."

    "Fred Johnson, once, at a time when your wife was feeling depressed and unappreciated, you committed the mortal sin of cheering her up by telling her she looked pretty, but she really wasn't that pretty. For that lie, you shall spend eternity in hell with Hitler."
    Speaking of fallacious...

  10. #10
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns View Post
    It really is interesting to see the extremes that Calvinism can take a person's soteriology to. Think, for a minute, of how Judgment Day, Calvinism Style, would go:

    God/Jesus/Holy Spirit: "Adolf Hitler, you were responsible for the murder of over 6 million people while on earth. You will spend eternity in hell. Next person, please."

    "Fred Johnson, once, at a time when your wife was feeling depressed and unappreciated, you committed the mortal sin of cheering her up by telling her she looked pretty, but she really wasn't that pretty. For that lie, you shall spend eternity in hell with Hitler."
    Since you follow a works based salvation you believe that salvation is based on your own works/personal righteousness.

  11. #11
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by theway View Post
    What I believe is immaterial. T
    Then why are you flapping your gums at all on this board since what you believe is immaterial?

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    Quote Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns View Post
    It really is interesting to see the extremes that Calvinism can take a person's soteriology to. Think, for a minute, of how Judgment Day, Calvinism Style, would go:

    God/Jesus/Holy Spirit: "Adolf Hitler, you were responsible for the murder of over 6 million people while on earth. You will spend eternity in hell. Next person, please."

    "Fred Johnson, once, at a time when your wife was feeling depressed and unappreciated, you committed the mortal sin of cheering her up by telling her she looked pretty, but she really wasn't that pretty. For that lie, you shall spend eternity in hell with Hitler."
    I always imagined the Calvinist judgment will be more like the clickety clack sound of the spinning of the Salvation Lotto Wheel.
    And then as the wheel stops spinning the Lord says "You win!" or "you lose" depending on the luck of the wheel.
    Because as we all know The Lord uses no critera whatsoever to decide a persons fate in Calvinism

  13. #13
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by theway View Post
    I
    And then as the wheel stops spinning the Lord says "You win!" or "you lose" depending on the luck of the wheel.
    Really? I thought Calvinists believe that those who place their faith in Christ are saved and those who don't are not.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    Then why are you flapping your gums at all on this board since what you believe is immaterial?
    LOL... I don't know how you operate your computer, but I use my hands.

  15. #15
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by theway View Post
    Because as we all know The Lord uses no critera whatsoever to decide a persons fate in Calvinism
    What criteria do you believe The Lord should use to determine your fate?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    Really? I thought Calvinists believe that those who place their faith in Christ are saved and those who don't are not.
    Not quite.

    You see in Calvinism it is not YOUR faith, it is the faith that God has to first give to you. Then once God gives you faith, he then regenerates you based on the faith he has given you. After that you are saved because he regenerated you.
    Nothing was yours! You can not have faith on your own.

    How did God determine who to give faith to??? That is an unknown in Calvinism, because if there was any criteria which is based anyway on what the human did, that means in Cavinism that God did not do it all, and man payed a part in his salvation.

    Ergo... Salvation Lotto.
    Last edited by theway; 10-13-2013 at 11:10 AM.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    What criteria do you believe The Lord should use to determine your fate?
    Rev. 20:12
    12. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
    13. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

  18. #18
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by theway View Post
    Rev. 20:12
    12. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
    13. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
    So you believe in salvation by works? BTW who are the "DEAD"?

  19. #19
    James Banta
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    Quote Originally Posted by theway View Post
    No James... It's just your constant misunderstanding of the scriptures is what is making your argument faulty here. All sins are not the same!
    I will try to keep it as simple as I can in this first post.

    First:
    Perfection is required for entrance into Heaven.
    Psalm 24:3-5
    3 Who shall ascend into the hill of the Lord? or who shall stand in his holy place?
    4 He that hath clean hands, and a pure heart; who hath not lifted up his soul unto vanity, nor sworn deceitfully.
    5 He shall receive the blessing from the Lord, and righteousness from the God of his salvation.

    Second:
    Those who are capable if committing sin, have all sinned, even if it was just one very small sin. Therefore no one will get to Heaven based on their own works.

    1 John 1:8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

    Third:
    there are different degrees of sin.
    1 John 5:16-17 If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask, and God will give him life—to those who commit sins that do not lead to death. There is sin that leads to death; I do not say that one should pray for that. All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that does not lead to death.

    John 19:11 Jesus answered him, “You would have no authority over me at all unless it had been given you from above. Therefore he who delivered me over to you has the greater sin.”

    Matthew 22:36-40 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?” And he said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment. And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets.”

    Fourth:
    Different degrees of sins require different repentance processes and different lengths of time depending on the Lord's Will for that person. One sin is so serious that they can not be forgiven at all; neither in this life or the world to come.

    2 Chronicles 7:14 If my people who are called by my name humble themselves, and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and heal their land.

    John 9:31 Now we know that God heareth not sinners: but if any man be a worshipper of God, and doeth his will, him he heareth

    Revelation 2:5 Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent, and do the works you did at first. If not, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent.

    Matthew 12:31
    Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven people, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven.

    Fifth:
    One can become perfect again and forgiven of by Lord. This is based mostly on the knowledge and truth we have received; but also on the seriousness of the sin, and the repentance processes we must go through.
    According to the Law there are sins that lead to death.. You are correct.. Disobedience to a direct command of God leads to death.. God told Joshua that He would no longer be with Israel unless Achan was killed for taking a spoil of Jericho (Joshua 7:12). Theft is not a sin unto death in the Law (Proverbs 6:31).. So what is a sin unto death? That has always been a question. In the OT Adultery was such a sin. In the New Testament Jesus bears our sin as we confess them. And He paid the penalty of even sins that were sins unto death.. Instead sin is now sin and any sin found within us is a sin unto eternal death. We are commanded to be perfect as the Father in heaven is perfect. The Holy Spirit through James has made it clear that who ever commits a sin breaking the Law of God, such a person has become guilty of the whole LAW.. I am not spinning that, read it yourself it's found in James 2:10.. Put it in context all you want.. It fits into the command of Jesus for us to be perfect. It fits into His sinless life, His righteousness that He offers to all of us who may receive it (2 Corinthians 5:21)..

    So here is what I think of what you have quoted from the Bible..

    First, I agree. We receive the blessing from the Lord, and righteousness from the God of our salvation. See that we receive RIGHTEOUSNESS from God.. Not by our own actions..

    Second, I agree. All have sinned..We have all fallen short of His glory.

    Third, I agree with the p***ages you have quoted but disagree with your statement that makes it look like sin is something other than a rebellion against God. Remember David committed both adultery and murder, and yet God spoke through the prophet saying that "You will not die" (2 Sam 12:14).. All sin is a rebellion against God. There is always a price to pay sometime a lot, sometimes a little.. I paid a price far less than I deserved..

    Forth, While I agree with the p***ages you quoted I disagree with your remarks. God will forgive as it seems right to Him.. To some it is an honest confession. to others it is a season of challenges. To other a lose of all they have.. It is not your place to command what God will require for repentance. All the sins men commit in this world will be forgiven to them.. Jesus paid the total price, but for the sin of ignoring the Holy Spirit and turning away from the grace God offers to us though faith in Jesus, there is no forgiveness.. So Murder, Adultery, stealing. disrespect of parents, coveting, all these things are forgiven.. Only turning away from faith in God (Jesus). For that spiritual sin there is no forgiveness. You are mixing apples and oranges again..

    Fifth, We can be forgiven, God has told us "Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool." (Isaiah 1:18). It is the promise of God. It is not based on any LDS teaching alone. The Holy Spirit has told us that "whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all" (James 2:10).. While that doesn't tell us that one sin is greater or less serious than another it does tell us that if we sin at all we are guilty of breaking the whole law.. So telling a lie, while it is not a sin unto death, still makes a person just as guilty before God as murder, which is a sin unto death.. You can deny that but in so doing you deny the same context that teaches that faith without works is dead.. If verse 10 is false then verses 17, 20, and 26 are also false.. I don't believe that I believe that faith in manifest in our works. But mormonism has no legs to stand on as I teach that is ONLY by God's grace through faith that He provides by which we are saved and NOT OF WORKS..

    Is there some set process of repentance you can show me in the Bible? The Bible does tell us to repent does it not? And yet there is no set procedure for repentance? Did David go through some set process to repent of murder? Did Cane go through a repentance process? Neither of those men had to suffer death for the sin of murder. Did Judah go though some repentance process for committing adultery with Tamar his own daughter in law?(Genesis 38:24).. Just where in the Bible are you taught to accuse anyone in the Bible of not being repentant of such sins if you disagree with the process of repentance is used? Your stanch one way doctrine of repentance is very Pharisaical.. IHS jim
    Last edited by James Banta; 10-13-2013 at 02:27 PM.

  20. #20
    James Banta
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    Quote Originally Posted by theway View Post
    What I believe is immaterial. The Lord states only one sin is unforgivable. I am to forgive EVERYONE, it is up to Him to forgive who he will.
    But as I noted, it all depends on one's knowledge, because even that one unforgivable sin is completely based on our level of faith and knowledge. It is impossible to truly deny what we do not have a perfect knowledge of.
    Based on the knowledge level demonstrated by Critics here, I don't think any of you have anything to worry about.
    God's example of forgiveness it to forget the crime completely. In Hebrews 8:12, again in chapter 10 verse 17, in Jeremiah 31:34, and in Isaiah 43:25, God tell us that He will not remember our sins. But do theway, and sir follow God in this example? NO!!! Even as long as 12 years after I sinned and repented they remember and spread it around like ****ering a slice of bread only they ****er the minds of others with filth.. I have said this before, it is Satan called the accuser of the brother.. You are in His employ in accusing those whom God has promised to forgive and not even remember those sins.. This is your shame, no longer is it mine.. IHS jim

  21. #21
    James Banta
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pa Pa View Post
    He has done this many times...why is the mystery.
    You above all the LDS here should know the Bible James 2:10 holds that doctrine up to be God's word being entirely biblical.. You may not believe that to be scripture. I am not sure that you believe any of the Bible to be scripture.. I don't even think you believe LDS scripture to be the word of God.. Just what is your anchor? You seem to be adrift.. IHS jim

  22. #22
    Pa Pa
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    Quote Originally Posted by James Banta View Post
    You above all the LDS here should know the Bible James 2:10 holds that doctrine up to be God's word being entirely biblical.. You may not believe that to be scripture. I am not sure that you believe any of the Bible to be scripture.. I don't even think you believe LDS scripture to be the word of God.. Just what is your anchor? You seem to be adrift.. IHS jim
    I believe all the Bible is Biblical and you are wrong if you think I do not believe LDS Scripture.

  23. #23
    James Banta
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pa Pa View Post
    I believe all the Bible is Biblical and you are wrong if you think I do not believe LDS Scripture.
    If that is the case then you should be one of the LDS here that believes that "If we fail to meet all the requirements of God's commandments we are guilty of failing to keep any of those commandments" (James 2:10). Not withstanding ant LDS scriptures the Bible is the most important of all scripture. Elder McConkie said of the Bible "the Bible is the book of books; that it is a volume of holy scripture; that it contains the mind and will and voice of the Lord to all men on earth; and that it has had a greater effect on the civilization of the world, up to this time, than any other book ever written." (lds.org/manual/teaching-seminary-preservice-readings-religion-370-471-and-475/the-bible-a-sealed-book?lang=eng&query=the+Bible+is+the+central+book+ of+faith+to+the+LDS).

    With that level of respect to the leadership of the Church, the Bible must be held in reverence by the membership. If it is only true if the translation is correct then please show me that the translation of James 2:10 is wrong and show me what it should say.. If you find no error I hold you to your conviction that you believe the Bible and therefore we we keep the whole Law but offend it is only one point (no matter how small the failure) we are guilty before God of the whole..

    I know you were having trouble with church if that has p***ed I am happy for you. If you believe I hold anger for you, or even a small level of resentment you would be incorrect. You have have always come across to me as the most knowledgeable, and reasonable of all the LDS posters here.. I am sorry you find me to be so objectionable.. I have often thought there was a organized effort to single me out to be ignored here.. The only reason I can figure out for that level of treatment is because I used scripture and statements from both historic and modern LDS sources to point out problem in LDS scripture and beliefs. I have thanked God for that treatment because it seems to be enough to really get someone concerned about others hearing truth.. Again Papa I am glad you have found peace with your former doubts.. IHS jim

  24. #24
    MacG
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    Quote Originally Posted by theway View Post
    Rev. 20:12
    12. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
    13. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
    Do check the context of your proof text.

  25. #25
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by theway View Post
    Not quite.

    You see in Calvinism it is not YOUR faith, it is the faith that God has to first give to you.
    Really? A person who has faith doesn't really have faith?
    Quote Originally Posted by theway View Post
    Then once God gives you faith, he then regenerates you based on the faith he has given you. After that you are saved because he regenerated you.
    I don't think you quite have a grasp of what Calvinists believe. Does faith really come before regeneration according to Calvinism?

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