My New Favorite Quote of WM Forums

[Sir]

"Small sins like telling a[n] ugly person how good they look is as serious before a Holy God as murder or adultery." - James Banta

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Sir

"Small sins like telling a[n] ugly person how good they look is as serious before a Holy God as murder or adultery." - James Banta

Are some sins OK in your mind and others are not?

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Are some sins OK in your mind and others are not?

As much as sir will quote p***ages of James 2 he refuses to believe anything that disagrees with what his LDS teachers have told him. James is clear that "Whosoever keeps the whole Law, yet offends in ONE POINT, is guilty of all".. It doesn't matter what the Bible teaches sir just won't believe this teaching. Even though it is right in front of him he disbelieves that James is making it clear that no one can say they have no sin, and no one can say they are less of a sinner than anyone else.. We are all guilty before God of breaking His whole Law.. Sir is no more or less of a sinner than you or than I.. The trouble is he is blind to the ways of God in this matter. He has his fingers in his ears and his eyes tightly shut to the truth laying right there in front of him.. Sir's hatred for the word of God is written by his own hand belittling this teaching, IHS jim

[theway]

Originally Posted by James Banta

As much as sir will quote p***ages of James 2 he refuses to believe anything that disagrees with what his LDS teachers have told him. James is clear that "Whosoever keeps the whole Law, yet offends in ONE POINT, is guilty of all".. It doesn't matter what the Bible teaches sir just won't believe this teaching. Even though it is right in front of him he disbelieves that James is making it clear that no one can say they have no sin, and no one can say they are less of a sinner than anyone else.. We are all guilty before God of breaking His whole Law.. Sir is no more or less of a sinner than you or than I.. The trouble is he is blind to the ways of God in this matter. He has his fingers in his ears and his eyes tightly shut to the truth laying right there in front of him.. Sir's hatred for the word of God is written by his own hand belittling this teaching, IHS jim

No James... It's just your constant misunderstanding of the scriptures is what is making your argument faulty here. All sins are not the same!
I will try to keep it as simple as I can in this first post.

First:
Perfection is required for entrance into Heaven.
Psalm 24:3-5
3 Who shall ascend into the hill of the Lord? or who shall stand in his holy place?
4 He that hath clean hands, and a pure heart; who hath not lifted up his soul unto vanity, nor sworn deceitfully.
5 He shall receive the blessing from the Lord, and righteousness from the God of his salvation.

Second:
Those who are capable if committing sin, have all sinned, even if it was just one very small sin. Therefore no one will get to Heaven based on their own works.

1 John 1:8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

Third:
there are different degrees of sin.
1 John 5:16-17 If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask, and God will give him life—to those who commit sins that do not lead to death. There is sin that leads to death; I do not say that one should pray for that. All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that does not lead to death.

John 19:11 Jesus answered him, “You would have no authority over me at all unless it had been given you from above. Therefore he who delivered me over to you has the greater sin.”

Matthew 22:36-40 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?” And he said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment. And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets.”

Fourth:
Different degrees of sins require different repentance processes and different lengths of time depending on the Lord's Will for that person. One sin is so serious that they can not be forgiven at all; neither in this life or the world to come.

2 Chronicles 7:14 If my people who are called by my name humble themselves, and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and heal their land.

John 9:31 Now we know that God heareth not sinners: but if any man be a worshipper of God, and doeth his will, him he heareth

Revelation 2:5 Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent, and do the works you did at first. If not, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent.

Matthew 12:31
Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven people, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven.

Fifth:
One can become perfect again and forgiven of by Lord. This is based mostly on the knowledge and truth we have received; but also on the seriousness of the sin, and the repentance processes we must go through.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by theway

Fifth:
One can become perfect again and forgiven of by Lord. This is based mostly on the knowledge and truth we have received; but also on the seriousness of the sin, and the repentance processes we must go through.

You don't even believe what you yourself have written. You don't believe murderers can be completely forgiven and be exalted. Now do you?

[theway]

Originally Posted by Billyray

You don't even believe what you yourself have written. You don't believe murderers can be completely forgiven and be exalted. Now do you?

What I believe is immaterial. The Lord states only one sin is unforgivable. I am to forgive EVERYONE, it is up to Him to forgive who he will.
But as I noted, it all depends on one's knowledge, because even that one unforgivable sin is completely based on our level of faith and knowledge. It is impossible to truly deny what we do not have a perfect knowledge of.
Based on the knowledge level demonstrated by Critics here, I don't think any of you have anything to worry about.

[nrajeffreturns]

It really is interesting to see the extremes that Calvinism can take a person's soteriology to. Think, for a minute, of how Judgment Day, Calvinism Style, would go:

God/Jesus/Holy Spirit: "Adolf Hitler, you were responsible for the murder of over 6 million people while on earth. You will spend eternity in hell. Next person, please."

"Fred Johnson, once, at a time when your wife was feeling depressed and unappreciated, you committed the mortal sin of cheering her up by telling her she looked pretty, but she really wasn't that pretty. For that lie, you shall spend eternity in hell with Hitler."

[MacG]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

It really is interesting to see the extremes that Calvinism can take a person's soteriology to. Think, for a minute, of how Judgment Day, Calvinism Style, would go:

God/Jesus/Holy Spirit: "Adolf Hitler, you were responsible for the murder of over 6 million people while on earth. You will spend eternity in hell. Next person, please."

"Fred Johnson, once, at a time when your wife was feeling depressed and unappreciated, you committed the mortal sin of cheering her up by telling her she looked pretty, but she really wasn't that pretty. For that lie, you shall spend eternity in hell with Hitler."

Speaking of fallacious...

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by MacG

Speaking of fallacious...

What fallacy do you think you see? If no sin is really worse than another because all sins are equal in severity, then the scenario I described is accurate.

[MacG]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

What fallacy do you think you see? If no sin is really worse than another because all sins are equal in severity, then the scenario I described is accurate.

"Fred Johnson, once, at a time when your wife was feeling depressed and unappreciated, you committed the mortal sin of cheering her up by telling her she looked pretty, but she really wasn't that pretty. For that lie, you shall spend eternity in hell with Hitler."

It is fallacious because Fred has already broken the law way before this scenario. How do I know this? Fred was a teenager before he got married. I do not know any teens that have not sinned but if that was not enough, Fred then being married had probably heard one of these questions: "Do you think she is pretty?" "Do you like my new perfume?" "Do these pants make my but look big?" "What do you think of my mother?" "don't you just love what I've done with your den/shop?" Yeah I am sure that he sinned way before this 'ugly' comment. The only way it sends him to hell is for those who believe in works based salvation, like Father Guido Sarducchi. If it was the one sin on the balance of works that was not countered and tipped the scales, yeah, then sure he would then go to hell - for those who believe that works balances out sins. To be sure this is not what I believe, nor what Jim believes that the scripture teaches and you know this. Which is why I said it is fallacious. It was clear to me that he was demonstrating the absurd by being absurd. You have been here long enough you ought to have known better than to use it as a straw-man.

Now as far as all sins being equal there are two facets to this: qualitative and quanti tative. Jesus said he who stumbles at one point of the law is guilty of breaking all of it. Like a single log bridge over a crevas se - everyone's log breaks at some point before reaching the other side. This is the qualitative, think qualified/disqualified. This leaves quanti tative, think sum total, Pol Pot, Amin, Stalin, Columbus, you and me. Certainly we have not done the things as those nefarious individuals but our log snapped under our own weight and we cannot get to the other side no matter how hard we try (yes even with a wing suit), what does it matter what 'they' have done? , for all are in a free fall and ought to be concerned first with our own fate (taking the log out of our own eye) lest we become like the guy driving along gawking at the wreck alongside the road and rear-ends the next stopped car.

[nrajeffreturns]

A major problem with Calvinism's soteriology is the idea that if Fred Johnson and Jeffrey Dahmer each committed only one sin--Fred tells his wife one time that she's pretty, and Dahmer murders only one teen-aged boy--that God would send both of them to the same hell, with the same torture, for the same amount of time.

There's no way God is that unfair.

[RealFakeHair]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

A major problem with Calvinism's soteriology is the idea that if Fred Johnson and Jeffrey Dahmer each committed only one sin--Fred tells his wife one time that she's pretty, and Dahmer murders only one teen-aged boy--that God would send both of them to the same hell, with the same torture, for the same amount of time.

There's no way God is that unfair.

I was invited by Jeffrey Dahmer for dinner, but I lost my appe***e when I saw what was on the menu.
I saw Fred's wife and for me is would do. Now as for God being unfair, that is not for us to judge.
I just hope God of the Holy Bible has a sense of humor.

[MacG]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

A major problem with Calvinism's soteriology is the idea that if Fred Johnson and Jeffrey Dahmer each committed only one sin--Fred tells his wife one time that she's pretty, and Dahmer murders only one teen-aged boy--that God would send both of them to the same hell, with the same torture, for the same amount of time.

There's no way God is that unfair.

All Adam did was take a bite of a piece of fruit at his super hot wife's request. How unfair is that?

It is a shame when that log breaks. Who you gonna call?

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by MacG

All Adam did was take a bite of a piece of fruit at his super hot wife's request. How unfair is that?

That depends on what his punishment really ended up being. I don't believe his "sin" resulted in him ending up being tortured forever in hell.

[MacG]

About that broken log?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

It really is interesting to see the extremes that Calvinism can take a person's soteriology to. Think, for a minute, of how Judgment Day, Calvinism Style, would go:

God/Jesus/Holy Spirit: "Adolf Hitler, you were responsible for the murder of over 6 million people while on earth. You will spend eternity in hell. Next person, please."

"Fred Johnson, once, at a time when your wife was feeling depressed and unappreciated, you committed the mortal sin of cheering her up by telling her she looked pretty, but she really wasn't that pretty. For that lie, you shall spend eternity in hell with Hitler."

Since you follow a works based salvation you believe that salvation is based on your own works/personal righteousness.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Since you follow a works based salvation you believe that salvation is based on your own works/personal righteousness.

Are you referring to this "works based salvation"?


John 5:28-29----King James Version (KJV)


28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Are you referring to this "works based salvation"?


John 5:28-29----King James Version (KJV)


28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.

So would you say that Mormonism is a works based religion where exaltation is based on your works/personal righteousness?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---Are you referring to this "works based salvation"?

John 5:28-29----King James Version (KJV)

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.

Originally Posted by Billyray

So would you say that Mormonism is a works based religion where exaltation is based on your works/personal righteousness?

First--do you believe the above scripture is works-based?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

First--do you believe the above scripture is works-based?

Not at all.

Now I see that you didn't answer my question. So would you say that Mormonism is a works based religion where exaltation is based on your works/personal righteousness?

[RealFakeHair]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Not at all.
Originally Posted by dberrie2000
First--do you believe the above scripture is works-based?


Now I see that you didn't answer my question. So would you say that Mormonism is a works based religion where exaltation is based on your works/personal righteousness?

I am holding my breath here!

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---Are you referring to this "works based salvation"?

John 5:28-29----King James Version (KJV)

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.

Originally Posted by Billyray View Post---So would you say that Mormonism is a works based religion where exaltation is based on your works/personal righteousness?

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---First--do you believe the above scripture is works-based?

Originally Posted by Billyray

Not at all. Now I see that you didn't answer my question. So would you say that Mormonism is a works based religion...

According to your beliefs--if those who are judged according to their works in John5:28-29--and that for life or ****ation--is not a works-based religion--then neither is LDS theology works-based. The LDS believe what Christ taught--that all mankind will be judged according to works--and that for His grace unto life or ****ation.

where exaltation is based on your works/personal righteousness?

Eternal life is based on His grace. His grace unto life is based on our obedience to Jesus Christ.


Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)

9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

According to your beliefs--if those who are judged according to their works in John5:28-29--and that for life or ****ation--is not a works-based religion--then neither is LDS theology works-based.
Eternal life is based on His grace. His grace unto life is based on our obedience to Jesus Christ.

Can you point out where in John 5:28-29 it says "works"?

Again you failed to answer my question. Here it is again for you. So would you say that Mormonism is a works based religion...

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---According to your beliefs--if those who are judged according to their works in John5:28-29--and that for life or ****ation--is not a works-based religion--then neither is LDS theology works-based. The LDS believe what Christ taught--that all mankind will be judged according to works--and that for His grace unto life or ****ation.

John 5:28-29----King James Version (KJV)

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.

Originally Posted by Billyray

Can you point out where in John 5:28-29 it says "works"?

"they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation."

But then--that was the very doctrine of Christ--was it not?


Matthew 16:27---King James Version (KJV)

27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.


Obviously--if that is true--faith alone theology is false. But Christ's theology ---being judged according to works, and that for His grace unto life or ****ation---one will find in the LDS church. Billyray--what is found in the Bible NT--one will also find in the LDS church.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

"they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation."

But then--that was the very doctrine of Christ--was it not?

But you didn't point out where it says "works" or "personal righteousness" in John 5:28-29. Did you misread those verses? Perhaps you should go back and read them again.