There is a honest question I would like an answer too.

[James Banta]

Is the God of mormonism constrained by time? Does he travel through time as we do, one second at a time? Or is He the Being that His word claims Him to be, The YHWH.. The Being that IS.. One that exists even before Abraham was? I really don't know.. I don't remember having the subject ever address the whole time I was inside the church.. IHS jim

[nrajeffreturns]

The question has never been addressed as far as I know, so I guess you are free to speculate.
My own opinion is that there is no reason to believe that God is unable to travel or at least see into the past or the future. There are scriptures and accounts that support the idea that He is able to.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

The question has never been addressed as far as I know, so I guess you are free to speculate.
My own opinion is that there is no reason to believe that God is unable to travel or at least see into the past or the future. There are scriptures and accounts that support the idea that He is able to.

But you don't believe that God KNOWS the future. Right?

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by Billyray

But you don't believe that God KNOWS the future. Right?

Wrong. As usual.

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

Wrong. As usual.

So as far as you know there is no doctrine in mormonism that claims that God knows the beginning and the end.. He is as clueless as the rest of us? He knows what He wants to have happen but not if it will be done? I am not accusing here I am just looking for an official doctrine on the omniscience of God.. But there is no such teaching in mormonism? Nothing, Really? IHS jim

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by James Banta

So as far as you know there is no doctrine in mormonism that claims that God knows the beginning and the end..

There are scriptures that say He knows those things. I may have made a typo in my previous post that misled you. I don't know of any scripture that says He ISN'T able to travel to the future, or at least to see it and therefore know it.

He is as clueless as the rest of us?

The scriptures make it clear that we are far more clueless than God is. He has all the clues. We have few few right now, because He gives them to us as He sees fit, but He has promised that someday we will have all the clues we want.

He knows what He wants to have happen but not if it will be done?

It's easy to see from the scriptures that He knows whether or not His plans will succeed.
Just look at His dealings with Nephi, or with the Jaredites.

I am not accusing here I am just looking for an official doctrine on the omniscience of God.

I think there are statements saying that God is omniscient. He knows all that can be known.

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

There are scriptures that say He knows those things. I may have made a typo in my previous post that misled you. I don't know of any scripture that says He ISN'T able to travel to the future, or at least to see it and therefore know it.


The scriptures make it clear that we are far more clueless than God is. He has all the clues. We have few few right now, because He gives them to us as He sees fit, but He has promised that someday we will have all the clues we want.


It's easy to see from the scriptures that He knows whether or not His plans will succeed.
Just look at His dealings with Nephi, or with the Jaredites.


I think there are statements saying that God is omniscient. He knows all that can be known.

So the LDS do believe God knows all things.. That is re***uring. In the BofM, Nephi, makes a statement as to the nature of God I really respect. He told us that God gives no commandment to us that He doesn't prepare a way for us to keep.. Since He knows all things He would know if a commandment would be possible or impossible to keep. And yet the temple and city of New Jerusalem in Far West were never built according to the prophecy..

God told Smith that the saints were excused from keeping the command to do so, not because they were unwilling to keep it, but instead because of the efforts of the enemies of the church to prevent it.. Did God change? Nephi said that God would always makes it possible to keep His commandments, yet the Governor and militia of the state of Missouri, were able to hinder the commandments of God to His people? Or did Smith decide to give a commandment to the LDS people in the name of God that came from himself and not God?

That is one of the tests God gave us to identify whether a man is a prophet or not.. If the prophecy fails it is not of God, and the prophet who spoke it did so without God's approval. God tells us that such a prophet should die (Deut 18:20)..

Tell me just how the events of Far West agree with Nephi's proclamation about God being able to bring His prophecies to past and keep all his promises? Did Smith speak it presumptuously? Why would any child of God honor such a man, much less sing praises to him (Deut 18:22)..

This is a very strong point. I don't expect you can or even will attempt to give an answer to this post.. May God use it in your heart to study the foundation of the LDS church. Jeff if the foundation is bad the church it is built on is also going to be bad.. IHS jim

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by James Banta

So the LDS do believe God knows all things.. That is re***uring.

But shouldn't you have already known that LDS believe that, if you were LDS for a long time?

In the BofM, Nephi, makes a statement as to the nature of God I really respect. He told us that God gives no commandment to us that He doesn't prepare a way for us to keep.. Since He knows all things He would know if a commandment would be possible or impossible to keep. And yet the temple and city of New Jerusalem in Far West were never built according to the prophecy..

You misunderstand the prophecy, or you end up attacking the Bible's account of Jonah the prophet. If a prophecy is conditional, then it won't come to p*** if the conditions change that were necessary for it to come to p***.

Shouldn't God have known the Ninevites would repent? According to your reasoning, either the prophecy "In 40 days God will destroy your city" was false, or God didn't know that the people would repent.

If the prophecy fails it is not of God,

So Jonah's prophecy, that he claimed came from God, was not of God? 40 days later, Nineveh was still standing.

and the prophet who spoke it did so without God's approval. God tells us that such a prophet should die (Deut 18:20)..

Well, Jonah is indeed dead, so.....

This is a very strong point. I don't expect you can or even will attempt to give an answer to this post..

Well, then....SURPRISE!

May God use it in your heart to study the foundation of the LDS church.

What if the DEVIL uses what you've said to UNDERMINE my faith in the OT prophets like Jonah, or what if it causes me to start believing that God DIDN'T know that the Ninevites would repent? What if what you said results in me becoming an atheist?

Jeff if the foundation is bad the church it is built on is also going to be bad.. IHS jim

Maybe that's why I probably won't ever join a church that has TULIP as its foundation....

[James Banta]

[nrajeffreturns;149049]But shouldn't you have already known that LDS believe that, if you were LDS for a long time?

Like you said before it isn't something that is not often discussed that and there were those in the church that taught that God is still learning.. After all wouldn't that fit into a doctrine such as Eternal Progression? How is it that a being that knows all things, Owns all things progress? He would have to be a limited being to progress, wouldn't he? So I ask again, is there something God doesn't know? Is there something God doesn't have? How does God progress?

You misunderstand the prophecy, or you end up attacking the Bible's account of Jonah the prophet. If a prophecy is conditional, then it won't come to p*** if the conditions change that were necessary for it to come to p***.

Shouldn't God have known the Ninevites would repent? According to your reasoning, either the prophecy "In 40 days God will destroy your city" was false, or God didn't know that the people would repent.


So Jonah's prophecy, that he claimed came from God, was not of God? 40 days later, Nineveh was still standing.


Well, Jonah is indeed dead, so.....


Well, then....SURPRISE!


What if the DEVIL uses what you've said to UNDERMINE my faith in the OT prophets like Jonah, or what if it causes me to start believing that God DIDN'T know that the Ninevites would repent? What if what you said results in me becoming an atheist?


Maybe that's why I probably won't ever join a church that has TULIP as its foundation....

Who changed to have the Far West prophecy canceled? Did the LDS commit sin and therefore they were banned from building the temple? What does the D&C say about the LDS level of obedience?

D&C 124:49
Verily, verily, I say unto you, that when I give a commandment to any of the sons of men to do a work unto my name, and those sons of men go with all their might and with all they have to perform that work, and cease not their diligence, and their enemies come upon them and hinder them from performing that work, behold, it behooveth me to require that work no more at the hands of those sons of men, but to accept of their offerings.

The LDS worked with all diligence to perform that work and were hinder them from performing that work by their enemies. So if the LDS were obedient why did that Lord not protect them on finishing what he commanded? You are using a double talk that doesn't agree with the record. Tell me how working with all diligence to perform the commanded work is sin. Tell me did the Missouri mobs repent and God answered their prayer that TEMPLE NOT BE BUILT in Far West? What was the cause of the commandment being canceled? The LDS were doing all they could to complete the work and were hindered only by the mobs.. My God is stronger than any mob..

The men of Nineveh repented. They turned from their evil and to God.. God in His mercy forgave them.. Who is that story anything like the prophecy of Far West? As I have already asked, who repented? Did the LDS repent of something that would make building a temple unnecessary? So far I have seen no reason for the work to be stopped because of what the LDS did.. The Mobs didn't repent. They even brought the Governor into their sin to write the extermination order.. I see on repenting needed from the LDS shown in this story, I don't see that the mobs repented at all.. Why did God pull back from His commandment then? You aren't showing the were and why God refused to be the same God that Nephi taught. A God that would not give a commandment saves he prepares a way to keep his commands..

I believe that a man, even a whole nation can repent. "If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land." 2Chron 7:14.

If repentance can shake your faith in the OT prophets. If you can believe that God sending Jonah to them wasn't His plan to bring them back to faith in Him, then you don't believe in God in the first place.. \you have no faith to shake.. You already cl*** as an unbeliever.. I would have nothing to do with anything you believed or didn't believe.. That would be what you decide.

Are the articles of faith the foundation of mormonism? Or do you believe that the foundation of your church is your apostles and prophets.. TULIP is a list of articles of faith.. Jesus, His teachings, His Godhood, are the foundation of the Christian Church.. We are built on the Rock that Jesus is God, you are built on the unsupported, unwitnessed, unbiblical revelations of one man, Joseph Smith.. IHS jim

[nrajeffreturns]

Did God command Abraham to murder his son?
Did God provide a way for Abraham to obey that commandment?
Why did God change His mind, and say "That's okay, you don't really need to kill your son" ?

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

Did God command Abraham to murder his son?
Did God provide a way for Abraham to obey that commandment?
Why did God change His mind, and say "That's okay, you don't really need to kill your son" ?

God never commanded Abraham to murder his son.. He commanded that Abraham offer Him as a sacrifice.. That Abraham did.. His obedience was complete as he raised the knife. Here is the p***age in question:

Gen 22:1-2,10
And it came to p*** after these things, that God did tempt Abraham, and said unto him, Abraham: and he said, Behold, here I am.
And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of.
And Abraham stretched forth his hand, and took the knife to slay his son.

The sacrifice God called Abraham to make was then complete.. How did God change His mind seeing that was His intent the while time? It is stated in verse one that God tested Abraham.. Are you saying that the building of the Temple in Far West was just a test of the LDS, to see if they would be obedient? That the city of New Jerusalem was not really to be built? It was just to see if the LDS would be obedient? God provided Abraham a Lamb to finish the burnt offering, what did God provide as a lamb to complete the commanded construction of the temple in Far West? IHS jim

[theway]

Originally Posted by James Banta

So as far as you know there is no doctrine in mormonism that claims that God knows the beginning and the end..

That's the silliest statement I have heard yet.
If God is truly Eternal, then even He would be unable to know the beginning or the end. If He could, He would not be Eternal.

Originally Posted by James Banta

He is as clueless as the rest of us?

I was wrong, this statement is even sillier than the first.

Originally Posted by James Banta

He knows what He wants to have happen but not if it will be done?

Not true, we are the ones who are kept from seeing the future. If we could clearly see the future than we would never truly have free agency. We would never ask God for help. God knows what will happen, but we must be given a choice and be given the freedom to make that choice even if it is not the choice God would have us make.

Originally Posted by James Banta

I am not accusing here I am just looking for an official doctrine on the omniscience of God.. But there is no such teaching in mormonism? Nothing, Really? IHS jim

I guess Mormonism just isn't that dogmatic.
Unlike the Evangelical who just make up rules for God and doctrine as they go along.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by theway

That's the silliest statement I have heard yet.
If God is truly Eternal, then even He would be unable to know the beginning or the end. If He could, He would not be Eternal.

What Jim said was not sill but absolutely true according to Mormonism. The Mormon God does not KNOW the beginning and the end rather he can only attempt to predict it.

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by James Banta

God never commanded Abraham to murder his son..

If murder is the deliberate killing of an innocent person...

God commanded Abraham to kill Isaac. Correct?
Isaac was an innocent person. Correct?

How was being told to kill him, NOT being told to murder him?

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

If murder is the deliberate killing of an innocent person...

God commanded Abraham to kill Isaac. Correct?
Isaac was an innocent person. Correct?

How was being told to kill him, NOT being told to murder him?

Since God knew that Isaac would never be killed how is this a command to commit murder?.. If it was commanded would not God have provided a way to keep such a commandment? That is what the BofM teaches.. So this was a test, a test given to Abraham so we could see why he was chosen to be the man by whom God's salvation would come into the world as a gift to all men of faith.. IHS jim

[James Banta]

[theway;149215]That's the silliest statement I have heard yet.
If God is truly Eternal, then even He would be unable to know the beginning or the end. If He could, He would not be Eternal.

What? If God is eternal "He would be unable to know the beginning or the end, and If He could, He would not be Eternal" So which do you believe God to be? The ETERNAL FATHER or the OMNISCIENT GOD? I think you have again invented a different God than the God of the Bible..

I was wrong, this statement is even sillier than the first.
Not true, we are the ones who are kept from seeing the future. If we could clearly see the future than we would never truly have free agency. We would never ask God for help. God knows what will happen, but we must be given a choice and be given the freedom to make that choice even if it is not the choice God would have us make.

That is what Christian believe of God that He does know all things. All things past, all things future.. That is how God can predestinate those who will gain salvation and those that will be ****ed.. He already knows and has always known.. That is why Moses was able to tell us that a prophet will never give a prophecy that will fail. Even the prophecy given though Jonah was given to call Nineveh to repent.. And how do we know that was God's intent? Because He promised and He doesn't change..

2Chr 7:14
If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

I guess Mormonism just isn't that dogmatic.
Unlike the Evangelical who just make up rules for God and doctrine as they go along.

I believe you are right.. Mormons allow for a God you makes mistakes and take corrective measures.. The Church on the other hand believe God when He teaches us that "I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed." Bible believers are dogmatic about who God is, what He has taught us, and that He is changeless. We don't teach that God gives us a commandment but changes His mind later because of some hardship caused by being obedient.

Yes sometimes a lie maybe the way to avoid the problems we fall into, but we are to be in Jesus, and Jesus is the Truth. The God of Mormonism excused the LDS church from keeping his commands to build a temple and a city in Far West Missouri. Why did He do that? ONLY BECAUSE OF THE PERSECUTIONS brought on them by mere men.. And this after that same God inspired Nephi to proclaim that he gives no commandments unless he prepares a way to accomplish the commandments he has given.. But mormonism has fallen away from that level of faith in their God.. And you have the gall to say that the Church makes up it's own rules for God and doctrine as we go along..

You amaze me in such a statement.. Tell me what rules have we made up for God, what doctrines have we invented as we have gone alone? If you say the trinity then tell me how it is that we teach that there is One God as the Bible teaches but at the same time agree with the Bible that the Father is God, that Jesus is God, and that the Holy Spirit is God and these are one Lord? That is the doctrine of the Trinity in a nutshell.. IHS jim