What does James Chapter 2 teach us?

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

Hello, Jim? Who created this thread and started it out with

"So what kind of example of caring for the poor is the LDS church??" ??


Jim, your duplicity and outright hypocrisy would make even Obama jealous. YOU brought up this issue and YOU ASKED about LDS spending for the needy. For you to now make the false accusation that by answering YOUR QUESTION, we were thumping our chests, is so dishonest that it is a sight to behold.


Amazing. YOU CREATE THIS THREAD which ASKED about our generosity, and then you end this same thread telling us to stop giving you the answer.

Could the Pharisees of Jesus' day outdo that? I am not sure.

With the reports of all the LDS church is now doing in the Philippines it has brought up this sour subject again onto center stage.. All the LDS do for people brought down by the tragedies of a fallen world are preformed to be seen by men.. The LDS church even has an officer dedicated to public relations.. Every time the LDS do anything to aid those touched by disaster the TV camera's are there recording their efforts.. Their chests are puffed out as they announce their cooperation with other faiths.

They actually called in the News to show how giving they are in allowing Muslims to use one of their building to worship their false god.. Tell me again what does the Lord God have to do will Baal? IHS jim

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by James Banta

With the reports of all the LDS church is now doing in the Philippines it has brought up this sour subject again onto center stage..

Did any of US pro-LDS who are members of this forum bring it up?

Or did YOU bring it up?

All the LDS do for people brought down by the tragedies of a fallen world are preformed to be seen by men..

But Jim, YOU bragged about the wonderful things YOUR church has done. So YOUR chest must be pretty puffy.

The LDS church even has an officer dedicated to public relations..

Jim, YOUR church has someone who documents its awesome contributions to the poor...or am I wrong? Who took those pictures I saw on your church's website--Santa Claus?

Tell me again what does the Lord God have to do will Baal? IHS jim

Are you referring to Russ Baals? Er, I mean Bales? I dunno, you'll have to take it up with Russ...

[James Banta]

[nrajeffreturns;149400]Did any of US pro-LDS who are members of this forum bring it up?

Or did YOU bring it up?

Here is a clear answer (something I seldom get from you, oh and I want to point out that you asked a question you already knew the answer to another complaint I get from LDS posters about us) Yes I brought it up.. When LDS see problems in a Christian church, are those problems opened by LDS posters.. I have seen an LDS poster say that the weather issues that often plague the Midwest are then product of the persecution of the LDS church in Missouri.

I say that CB churches often give to agencies where good works are done, and used the percent of their giving to contrast the lack of giving by mormonism. If I was going to allow myself to be puffed up by the lack of giving by the LDS church I would explode..

Yes we have a church secretary.. She handles all our monies and does so as a service to her Lord.. She issues no press releases, she makes no decisions as to how those funds are used.. When I was in leadership the WEB site wasn't much more than a telephone number and a map showing our location.. What they have done and who did it is outside my knowledge.. That would include the pictures.. Would you like to compare what we have done online with that of the LDS church? No? I didn't think so..

No I am doing there just what you thought I was doing comparing those that believe they are God one true church with one that worships a whole different god.. Why does the LDS church work with unbelievers to deliver their comp***ionate aid, and even allow these false teaches to use the property of their God to worship a lie? Again I ask you what does the Lord God have to do will Baal? Keep twisting, it won't help.. IHS jim



But Jim, YOU bragged about the wonderful things YOUR church has done. So YOUR chest must be pretty puffy.


Jim, YOUR church has someone who documents its awesome contributions to the poor...or am I wrong? Who took those pictures I saw on your church's website--Santa Claus?


Are you referring to Russ Baals? Er, I mean Bales? I dunno, you'll have to take it up with Russ... [/QUOTE]

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by James Banta

Here is a clear answer (something I seldom get from you,

What was unclear about my answer to your question regarding what the LDS church has done for the needy?

Yes I brought it up

Maybe you don't realize that every time you ask what the LDS church has done for the needy, someone will probably answer by telling what the LDS church has done for the needy. Now, if your goal is to help the people of the world know that the LDS church is helping people who otherwise wouldn't get help from other churches (such as your own), then by all means, keep asking, and we will keep answering.

But I don't see how that helps your agenda of preventing people from knowing the good things that the LDS church does.

.. When LDS see problems in a Christian church, are those problems opened by LDS posters..

Look through the threads, Jim--how many were started by pro-LDS people who were pointing out problems in Christian churches?

[James Banta]

[nrajeffreturns;149434]What was unclear about my answer to your question regarding what the LDS church has done for the needy?

Since you can't get any authoritative measurement of what the LDS does for the needy your response was anecdotal.

Maybe you don't realize that every time you ask what the LDS church has done for the needy, someone will probably answer by telling what the LDS church has done for the needy. Now, if your goal is to help the people of the world know that the LDS church is helping people who otherwise wouldn't get help from other churches (such as your own), then by all means, keep asking, and we will keep answering.

Great thanks for offering. So how much of total income in percentage does the LDS church give to care for the poor. Does the LDS church have skilled professional builders that work full time directing the efforts to build homes for those that can't afford the material and don't have the skills to do so? The Church does (Food for the Poor). Do they have doctors and nurses that work full time in caring for the poor? The Church does (Mercy Ships).. Are they there to reach out with food and clothing 27/7/365? The Church does (Samaritan's Purse).. No mormonism tries to run in with food and clothing only when there is a disaster. And then the news is there to see their good works.. Mormonism partners with nonbelievers to deliver their gifts. Then have no organized mechanism to get the gifts to where they are needed.. They end up using a secular organization like the Red Cross to do that.. Deseret Industries Industries in the Intermountian west does a good *** but there the goods are sold to the poor not just given to them..

But I don't see how that helps your agenda of preventing people from knowing the good things that the LDS church does.

I don't deny that the LDS church does good works.. I am saying that ALL other church do more than mormonism by percentage of income. I see the LDS churches other works. Works like Bonneville International, City Creek shopping center and luxury condos, Deseret Publishing, large cattle ranches in Florida and wonder if mormonism is a religion or a business.. I know there are some other nonchristian "religions" that have done similar things. I use the term nonchristian for them and I use it for mormonism.

Look through the threads, Jim--how many were started by pro-LDS people who were pointing out problems in Christian churches?

I am not going to spend hours doing that when I can go right to your own scriptures and see that Joseph Smith wrote into mormon scripture that all we of other churches believe is an abomination. That everything we do is to draw near to God with their lips, while we hold our hearts are far from Him.. No where is all our scripture is mormonism addressed in such a manner. But still while holding us is such detain you want us to treat you as equals. No! You will we called for all you do to attack us, all you don't do to follow in the foot steps of Jesus.. IHS jim

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by James Banta

Since you can't get any authoritative measurement of what the LDS does for the needy your response was anecdotal.

Uh, I quoted from official LDS sources. If you think that's not authoritative, then maybe you have changed the definition of the term.

So how much of total income in percentage does the LDS church give to care for the poor.

You mean YOU don't you have the data, from an authoritative source, that would answer your question? If you don't, then on what foundation are you accusing us of not handing out enough? Whose definition of "enough" are you using--your own? How authoritative is THAT? Your whiny accusations and attacks are on a foundation of sand, Jim. You are lashing out at insufficient charity you think you see in another, when you don't really have any business doing that. You need to get your Bible out and read Matthew 7, and pretend that Jesus is talking about you.

Does the LDS church have skilled professional builders that work full time directing the efforts to build homes for those that can't afford the material and don't have the skills to do so?

Yes. You should know that--- since you were LDS for years. The fact that you are ig norant of this fact doesn't say much about your knowledge base. And if you are attacking from a deficient knowledge base, you are likely to end up saying junk that will make you look like a fool, and you're gonna regret it someday when you have to eat your accusatory words.

Do they have doctors and nurses that work full time in caring for the poor?

Yes. Again, you should know this. If you don't, then the reason might be:

a) The info was readily available, but you don't do your homework before attacking your former church.

b) The info was hard to find and therefore your accusation that the LDS church over-publicizes its charity, is a lie.

Are they there to reach out with food and clothing 27/7/365?

Yes. Jim, your bitterness has made you blind to the goodness around you. You are like the bitter man who complained that every town he visited was full of mean, unfriendly people, while the happy, positive man visited those same towns and said the people were friendly and welcoming.

No mormonism tries to run in with food and clothing only when there is a disaster.

"Thou shalt not bear false witness against other churches."

And then the news is there to see their good works.

Our humanitarian aid projects are covered and reported FOR US, ON OUR OWN TV NETWORK. Those reports are aired as summaries twice a year, right after General Conference. We don't call CNN and Fox News and hold press conferences every time we feed a hungry person or give a coat to a cold person. We don't point a gun at you and force you to watch those semiannual reports, Jim. Maybe that's why you are so ig norant regarding them.

Mormonism partners with nonbelievers to deliver their gifts.

True. We aren't cliquish when it comes to helping people and joining with other groups in helping people. Helping the needy is more important than being seen only hanging out with the right people. If you think Jesus doesn't want you to help the needy if you have to do it with non-Trinitarians, then you have severely misread the New Testament.

[James Banta]

[nrajeffreturns;149444]Uh, I quoted from official LDS sources. If you think that's not authoritative, then maybe you have changed the definition of the term.

That is where the problem is.. You are asking the bank to make an accounting of their own accounts.. Of course they will all balance.. What you need to ensure honesty is an impartial outside source.. I did data security during my professional career. There is no way I would allow an agency to make a security ***essment on their own network. There is too big a chance for a cover up.. That is why I have reluctance to believe what you tell me about the reports of the church about it's own finances.. You should understand that a disinterested outside source is a better measure for such matters..

You mean YOU don't you have the data, from an authoritative source, that would answer your question? If you don't, then on what foundation are you accusing us of not handing out enough? Whose definition of "enough" are you using--your own? How authoritative is THAT? Your whiny accusations and attacks are on a foundation of sand, Jim. You are lashing out at insufficient charity you think you see in another, when you don't really have any business doing that. You need to get your Bible out and read Matthew 7, and pretend that Jesus is talking about you.

Did I tell you? I thought I had.. It was here

According to an official church Welfare Services fact sheet, the church gave $1.3 billion in humanitarian aid in over 178 countries and territories during the 25 years between 1985 and 2010. A fact sheet from the previous year indicates that less than one-third of the sum was monetary ***istance, while the rest was in the form of “material ***istance.” All in all, if one were to evenly distribute that $1.3 billion over a quarter-century, it would mean that the church gave $52 million annually. A recently published article co-written by Cragun estimates that the Mormon Church donates only about 0.7 percent of its annual income to charity. (Business Week July 23, 2012)

Yes. You should know that--- since you were LDS for years. The fact that you are ig norant of this fact doesn't say much about your knowledge base. And if you are attacking from a deficient knowledge base, you are likely to end up saying junk that will make you look like a fool, and you're gonna regret it someday when you have to eat your accusatory words.

Since I am not the one compiling the results of the LDS giving in relationship to their income I will forgive your personal attacks.. I am not calling you i g n o r a n t, just deceived by the giant fiscal conglomerate that is LDS.INC..

Yes. Again, you should know this. If you don't, then the reason might be:

a) The info was readily available, but you don't do your homework before attacking your former church.

b) The info was hard to find and therefore your accusation that the LDS church over-publicizes its charity, is a lie.

Or I thought I had added the evidence but made a mistake in being sure before sending my post..

Yes. Jim, your bitterness has made you blind to the goodness around you. You are like the bitter man who complained that every town he visited was full of mean, unfriendly people, while the happy, positive man visited those same towns and said the people were friendly and welcoming.

Did I say what mormonism does in it's limited help was bad or evil.. Sorry you got that impression.. I said only that it is extremely limited compared to it's income.. In Haiti Food for the Poor had been there for years before the quake, So had Samaritan's Purse. Both working to end the suffering of the poor. And what did mormonism do there? Build LDS churches and teach the poor to t i t h e? Yes you have had many missionaries there. None trained in building, or community planning but even that has only been in place since 1978. Before that these were the children of Cain and under a curse.. Food for the Poor has been working in Haiti for over 100 Years.. But why would mormonism be there to help people cursed by God, right?

"Thou shalt not bear false witness against other churches."

Since what I said is neither my invention nor false I am in no danger of falling into sin over my reporting of this problem in mormonism..

Our humanitarian aid projects are covered and reported FOR US, ON OUR OWN TV NETWORK. Those reports are aired as summaries twice a year, right after General Conference. We don't call CNN and Fox News and hold press conferences every time we feed a hungry person or give a coat to a cold person. We don't point a gun at you and force you to watch those semiannual reports, Jim. Maybe that's why you are so ig norant regarding them.

Yes the LDS church is doing a wonderful *** of seeing to it that trumpets are sounded as it gives it alms to the poor. Where as Food for the Poor, and Samaritan's Purse do their work without the fanfare.. I can Biblically say that mormonism has it's reward.. They are far from not allowing their left hand to know what their right hand is doing.. They even have a special office in the church to release their news so that their humanitarian efforts don't go in noticed.. The church does release news reports of what they are doing, you just seem to be unaware of what their public relations office is there to do..

True. We aren't cliquish when it comes to helping people and joining with other groups in helping people. Helping the needy is more important than being seen only hanging out with the right people. If you think Jesus doesn't want you to help the needy if you have to do it with non-Trinitarians, then you have severely misread the New Testament.

Am I now? What are Christians commanded in our dealings? READ ON

2 Corinthians 6:14
Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?


The Holy Spirit is not giving us a subjection here. He is commanding us not to work with those who deny the faith.. ISLAM is not in communion with the Church. It is a Christ denying prophet worshiping cult. And mormonism ran into their arms. You could have not put your trust on men and waited for God to provide a way for your aid to be given but since mormonism also puts special reverence on a prophet (Praise to the man) maybe it is right that a nonchristian cult would work with another nonchristian cult.. You need to learn more about the New Testament before you again make yourself out to be so unknowledgeable about it's teachings.. There are ways of giving the poor and dest itute aid without running to the unbeliever.. IHS jim

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by James Banta

That is where the problem is.. You are asking the bank to make an accounting of their own accounts.

Who counted up the billions, er, thousands of dollars, that YOUR church has given to the needy, Jim?

What you need to ensure honesty is an impartial outside source.

Name the impartial outside source that made sure that YOUR church is telling the truth about its giving, Jim.

There is no way I would allow an agency to make a security ***essment on their own network. There is too big a chance for a cover up..

Then there is no way you allowed YOUR church to do this...right?

According to an official church Welfare Services fact sheet, the church gave $1.3 billion in humanitarian aid in over 178 countries and territories during the 25 years between 1985 and 2010.

Seems like you are relying on this fact sheet being accurate, Jim. Didn't you just say you would be a FOOL to trust something like that? Anyway, the Church responded, in part, as follows:

"Published numbers related to our humanitarian efforts include only dollars spent directly on humanitarian service. The Church absorbs the administrative costs. Furthermore, these numbers do not reflect the Church’s extensive welfare and employment services that serve many thousands worldwide. They also do not represent Deseret Industries thrift stores that provide vouchers to other charities for their use, donations to food pantries, or humanitarian- or welfare-focused missionary service or support given to aid other relief organizations in their missions. Hundreds of thousands of hours of donated service underpin Church programs such as these."

Since I am not the one compiling the results of the LDS giving in relationship to their income I will forgive your personal attacks.. I am not calling you i g n o r a n t, just deceived by the giant fiscal conglomerate that is LDS.INC..

So calling someone ig norant (unaware) of a fact is a personal attack, but calling someone DECEIVED is NOT a personal attack?

In Haiti Food for the Poor had been there for years before the quake, So had Samaritan's Purse. Both working to end the suffering of the poor.

What's the total $$ they gave? And how much of that $ came from YOUR church, Jim? Inquiring minds need to know, in order to evaluate the non-hypocrisy you are displaying.

Yes you have had many missionaries there. None trained in building, or community planning

I already told you that is a false statement. Now, if we actually DO have some missionaries who are trained in building, or community planning, then your false statement has to be either a case of:

a) Ig norance of the facts, or
b) lying, or
c) you have been deceived

Which of those options is the correct answer?

Since what I said is neither my invention nor false

I think you have done some of both. If you say false things and claim that you haven't done so, then you are guilty of saying yet another false thing. Possible reasons you would do that are:

a) Ig norance of the facts, or
b) lying, or
c) you have been deceived

I am in no danger of falling into sin over my reporting of this problem in mormonism..

You should probably read Matthew 7.

Yes the LDS church is doing a wonderful *** of seeing to it that trumpets are sounded as it gives it alms to the poor. Where as Food for the Poor, and Samaritan's Purse do their work without the fanfare.. I can Biblically say that mormonism has it's reward..

Aren't YOU trumpeting Food for the Poor, and Samaritan's Purse? So I guess they have their reward, thanks to you...

[James Banta]

[nrajeffreturns;149546]Who counted up the billions, er, thousands of dollars, that YOUR church has given to the needy, Jim?

Our books are open to anyone who wants to see them.. Like our Lord in secret we do nothing.. We would even allow you access to our financial records. But the records of mormonism seem to be secret. Why the LDS church Welfare Services included such low numbers for their giving to the poor on the fact sheet they provided to Businessweek is lost on me if the numbers were inaccurate. So that puts the facts provided by the LDS church as the only reference available to us, all other records have been close to inspection..

Then there is the construction of City Creek Center, The cost? near 3 Billion dollars.. And the purchase of ranch land in Florida, the cost there near 1 billion.. And what is the purpose of these expenditures? It isn't giving, it PROFIT.. Yes, these are the taxed portions of the LDS church's holdings, does that matter. Sandy ridge holds property worth maybe $300K, but wait I didn't include LDS worship buildings, not even those dedicated to the salvation of mostly the dead..

I also used a percentage for giving not a total dollar amount of giving that seems a bit fairer.. And according to the Businessweek of the data given to them by the LDS church's Welfare Services the Church is STINGY..

Name the impartial outside source that made sure that YOUR church is telling the truth about its giving, Jim.

No one has asked us as Businessweek asked you.. If you want to see our records come ask and we will open our records to your inspection.. We do nothing in secret..

Then there is no way you allowed YOUR church to do this...right?

Make that that challenge to the Church and see for yourself.. You will have to come to the church we do have to protect ourselves from those that would attempt iden***y theft the same as anyone does.. You will see everything except the account numbers they would be held in confidence like you hold your personal account numbers in confidence.. But Imam sure if you want the third party inspection those records can be made available to you directly at the bank.. I promise there won't be much in the accounts..

Seems like you are relying on this fact sheet being accurate, Jim. Didn't you just say you would be a FOOL to trust something like that? Anyway, the Church responded, in part, as follows:

"Published numbers related to our humanitarian efforts include only dollars spent directly on humanitarian service. The Church absorbs the administrative costs. Furthermore, these numbers do not reflect the Church’s extensive welfare and employment services that serve many thousands worldwide. They also do not represent Deseret Industries thrift stores that provide vouchers to other charities for their use, donations to food pantries, or humanitarian- or welfare-focused missionary service or support given to aid other relief organizations in their missions. Hundreds of thousands of hours of donated service underpin Church programs such as these."

This is why I pointed out that other churches are spending 30% to 60% of their income on humanitarian giving. All the administrative costs are part of the 70% to 40% that are not included.. I also showed you that Food for the Poor and Samaritan's Purse are both in the 90% of use that directly serves the poor.. But LDS costs are 99.3% leaving only .7% of their giving to serve the poor? That is a terrible charity in the costs of administration.

So calling someone ig norant (unaware) of a fact is a personal attack, but calling someone DECEIVED is NOT a personal attack?

Nope it isn't because not knowing is ig norance. It is not saying that you are incapable of learning in any way.. All it means is that you have not been told about this information.. That isn't your fault nor is keeping you in the dark your responsibility.. I never blame the victim of a fraud of a crime, only those who have perpetrated the fraud. The victim is ig norant of the crime being committed, that doesn't mean that they are st upid..

What's the total $$ they gave? And how much of that $ came from YOUR church, Jim? Inquiring minds need to know, in order to evaluate the non-hypocrisy you are displaying.

Very little.. Some months we have trouble just paying the light bill.. Still we give an average of 20% of out income to causes like Samaritan's Purse.. The percentage will have to do since the dollar amount does very depending of that months ti thes..

I already told you that is a false statement. Now, if we actually DO have some missionaries who are trained in building, or community planning, then your false statement has to be either a case of:

a) Ig norance of the facts, or
b) lying, or
c) you have been deceived
Which of those options is the correct answer?

If those were the only possibilities I would have to pick one but there are others possibilities..
1. The LDS church trying to hide or run away from the facts.
2. The LDS changing it's mind about what it wants the world to know so it tries to discredit the publisher that they gave the data to..
3. Your own disbelief that your church could be do stingy..

Just because you say that the report is in error doesn't mean that it is.. I do believe that is what you want, but we don't always get what we want..

I think you have done some of both. If you say false things and claim that you haven't done so, then you are guilty of saying yet another false thing. Possible reasons you would do that are:

a) Ig norance of the facts, or
b) lying, or
c) you have been deceived

Again you forgot that there are other choices like "IT MIGHT ACTUALLY BE THE TRUTH" Seems you want to make up the rules based only on what you want or believe when there are other possibilities..

You should probably read Matthew 7.

I am not afraid of being judged by the same measure that I judge mormonism.. Mormonism teaches the existence of an infinite number of gods. I agree with God who says He is only God.. I agree with you that mormonism does good things, I also agree with the numbers that mormonism has provided that it does less by percentage that most any other church.. I agree that your religion is built on shifting sand. Having leadership that taught many gods and taught that Adam was God, to teaching that only the Father is God and Jesus is His only begotten son. That God the Father is a being of flesh and bone and not just of spirit.. I am not worried at all that my judgement of mormonism is not an righteous judgment..

Aren't YOU trumpeting Food for the Poor, and Samaritan's Purse? So I guess they have their reward, thanks to you...

That is a good thing that someone beside themselves is showing that they have shown themselves to be so caring and dedicated to caring for the poor.. They don't do the "trumpeting" or pay people to do it.. They rely on their works to show their faith and love for God.. Not like Gary E. Stevenson, or Linda K. Burton that do trumpet their "Good works" and those of their church.. In fact all LDS do that since their good works is an essential part of what they must have to gain exaltation (Salvation).. I won't count Internet pages , both the LDS church and Christian charities have those.. IHS jim

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by James Banta

Our books are open to anyone who wants to see them..

But you have not seen them, correct? Why is that? Are you afraid of what you might see?

Like our Lord in secret we do nothing..

Then in your next post, you will provide the monthly income and expenses of your church for the past 5 years, with the sources of the income, and the expenses itemized and identified, and the current balance stated. Correct?

Then there is the construction of City Creek Center, The cost? near 3 Billion dollars..

Yes, our church paid money for real estate, which put money into the economy. Then our church paid money for improvements on that land, which gave many people ***S. In case you forgot, ***s are GOOD things because they allow people to buy their food and clothes and pay for a place to live, and all those things provide TAXES which the city and state NEED in order to help people.


So really what you're saying with your mote-and-beam Pharisaism, is that our church has done far more to provide ***s and self-sufficiency, and has paid far more in taxes to help the local govt. and economy, than your church has.

And somehow that's a bad thing, in your mind. So bad that you actually think that by complaining, criticizing, and demonizing others, you're doing God's work.

Your puny church may give a few people a fish, so they can eat for a day. While our church gives out tons of fish, AND teaches people HOW to fish and provide for themselves so they won't have to show up next week for another fish to be donated by somebody else.

It is a hard thing for thee to kick against the cacti.

[Apologette]

Originally Posted by James Banta

With the reports of all the LDS church is now doing in the Philippines it has brought up this sour subject again onto center stage.. All the LDS do for people brought down by the tragedies of a fallen world are preformed to be seen by men.. The LDS church even has an officer dedicated to public relations.. Every time the LDS do anything to aid those touched by disaster the TV camera's are there recording their efforts.. Their chests are puffed out as they announce their cooperation with other faiths.

They actually called in the News to show how giving they are in allowing Muslims to use one of their building to worship their false god.. Tell me again what does the Lord God have to do will Baal? IHS jim

Yes, they always do things ****ing their trumpets before them!

[RealFakeHair]

Originally Posted by James Banta

Our books are open to anyone who wants to see them.. Like our Lord in secret we do nothing.. We would even allow you access to our financial records. But the records of mormonism seem to be secret. Why the LDS church Welfare Services included such low numbers for their giving to the poor on the fact sheet they provided to Businessweek is lost on me if the numbers were inaccurate. So that puts the facts provided by the LDS church as the only reference available to us, all other records have been close to inspection..
Then there is the construction of City Creek Center, The cost? near 3 Billion dollars.. And the purchase of ranch land in Florida, the cost there near 1 billion.. And what is the purpose of these expenditures? It isn't giving, it PROFIT.. Yes, these are the taxed portions of the LDS church's holdings, does that matter. Sandy ridge holds property worth maybe $300K, but wait I didn't include LDS worship buildings, not even those dedicated to the salvation of mostly the dead..

I also used a percentage for giving not a total dollar amount of giving that seems a bit fairer.. And according to the Businessweek of the data given to them by the LDS church's Welfare Services the Church is STINGY..



No one has asked us as Businessweek asked you.. If you want to see our records come ask and we will open our records to your inspection.. We do nothing in secret..



Make that that challenge to the Church and see for yourself.. You will have to come to the church we do have to protect ourselves from those that would attempt iden***y theft the same as anyone does.. You will see everything except the account numbers they would be held in confidence like you hold your personal account numbers in confidence.. But Imam sure if you want the third party inspection those records can be made available to you directly at the bank.. I promise there won't be much in the accounts..



This is why I pointed out that other churches are spending 30% to 60% of their income on humanitarian giving. All the administrative costs are part of the 70% to 40% that are not included.. I also showed you that Food for the Poor and Samaritan's Purse are both in the 90% of use that directly serves the poor.. But LDS costs are 99.3% leaving only .7% of their giving to serve the poor? That is a terrible charity in the costs of administration.

So calling someone ig norant (unaware) of a fact is a personal attack, but calling someone DECEIVED is NOT a personal attack?

Nope it isn't because not knowing is ig norance. It is not saying that you are incapable of learning in any way.. All it means is that you have not been told about this information.. That isn't your fault nor is keeping you in the dark your responsibility.. I never blame the victim of a fraud of a crime, only those who have perpetrated the fraud. The victim is ig norant of the crime being committed, that doesn't mean that they are st upid..




Very little.. Some months we have trouble just paying the light bill.. Still we give an average of 20% of out income to causes like Samaritan's Purse.. The percentage will have to do since the dollar amount does very depending of that months ti thes..



If those were the only possibilities I would have to pick one but there are others possibilities..
1. The LDS church trying to hide or run away from the facts.
2. The LDS changing it's mind about what it wants the world to know so it tries to discredit the publisher that they gave the data to..
3. Your own disbelief that your church could be do stingy..

Just because you say that the report is in error doesn't mean that it is.. I do believe that is what you want, but we don't always get what we want..



Again you forgot that there are other choices like "IT MIGHT ACTUALLY BE THE TRUTH" Seems you want to make up the rules based only on what you want or believe when there are other possibilities..



I am not afraid of being judged by the same measure that I judge mormonism.. Mormonism teaches the existence of an infinite number of gods. I agree with God who says He is only God.. I agree with you that mormonism does good things, I also agree with the numbers that mormonism has provided that it does less by percentage that most any other church.. I agree that your religion is built on shifting sand. Having leadership that taught many gods and taught that Adam was God, to teaching that only the Father is God and Jesus is His only begotten son. That God the Father is a being of flesh and bone and not just of spirit.. I am not worried at all that my judgement of mormonism is not an righteous judgment..



That is a good thing that someone beside themselves is showing that they have shown themselves to be so caring and dedicated to caring for the poor.. They don't do the "trumpeting" or pay people to do it.. They rely on their works to show their faith and love for God.. Not like Gary E. Stevenson, or Linda K. Burton that do trumpet their "Good works" and those of their church.. In fact all LDS do that since their good works is an essential part of what they must have to gain exaltation (Salvation).. I won't count Internet pages , both the LDS church and Christian charities have those.. IHS jim

Well, close it really is Moroni horn!

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by Apologette

Yes, they always do things ****ing their trumpets before them!

Seems like the anti-LDS do the majority of "horning in" around here and at Cram.

If it weren't for the antis telling me, in a whining, accusatory way, about all the things my church has been doing for others, I probably wouldn't be aware of all of it. So thanks for ****ing that horn for us and informing us.


(By the way, why the sudden torrent of tirades here from you? Did you get suspended from Cram and turn to the WM forum as a 2nd-best outlet for vitriol?)

[Sir]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

(By the way, why the sudden torrent of tirades here from you? Did you get suspended from Cram and turn to the WM forum as a 2nd-best outlet for vitriol?)

A few of her threads have been sent to the "Junk" bin. Her other threads get ignored by mostly everyone there except a few of her cheerleaders (Yak). So it stands to reason she needs to come post here in order to try and fill her daily quota of vitriol and antagonism.

I do find it funny that she has probably put everyone one ignore, and then she complains that nobody will respond to her threads.

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Sir

A few of her threads have been sent to the "Junk" bin. Her other threads get ignored by mostly everyone there except a few of her cheerleaders (Yak). So it stands to reason she needs to come post here in order to try and fill her daily quota of vitriol and antagonism.

I do find it funny that she has probably put everyone one ignore, and then she complains that nobody will respond to her threads.

No need to complain about other posters here either.. It has nothing to do with mormonism, it's truth, or it's deception.. It would really be great if you could do that, but NO, you have to keep running to attacking personalities.. BTW I am not seeing that from Apologette.. IHS jim

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

Seems like the anti-LDS do the majority of "horning in" around here and at Cram.

If it weren't for the antis telling me, in a whining, accusatory way, about all the things my church has been doing for others, I probably wouldn't be aware of all of it. So thanks for ****ing that horn for us and informing us.


(By the way, why the sudden torrent of tirades here from you? Did you get suspended from Cram and turn to the WM forum as a 2nd-best outlet for vitriol?)

I don't know of another churches, other than cults, that have offices for public relations.. IHS jim

[Apologette]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

Did any of US pro-LDS who are members of this forum bring it up?

Or did YOU bring it up?



But Jim, YOU bragged about the wonderful things YOUR church has done. So YOUR chest must be pretty puffy.


Jim, YOUR church has someone who documents its awesome contributions to the poor...or am I wrong? Who took those pictures I saw on your church's website--Santa Claus?


Are you referring to Russ Baals? Er, I mean Bales? I dunno, you'll have to take it up with Russ...

No, you mean the Baals of the pagan idolatry of Mormonism, don't you? Like berrie whose says that Asherah is your "mother goddess." That's Baalism. The Mormons are always ****ing a trumpet in front of them to announce all their supposedly good works - but they've had their reward. You got the secret handshake - that and a quarter won't even buy you a cup of coffee. Maybe Baal will reward you guys!

Jeff, repent and come to Christ and renounce the Baals in your life. I believe God is calling you and you know it!

[Apologette]

Originally Posted by James Banta

No need to complain about other posters here either.. It has nothing to do with mormonism, it's truth, or it's deception.. It would really be great if you could do that, but NO, you have to keep running to attacking personalities.. BTW I am not seeing that from Apologette.. IHS jim

If I'm of no account, then why does he whine and whine because I won't respond to him....even to the point of unethical snooping. Who needs it! I don't post for Mormons anyway - I mostly post for those needing information about the history and doctrine of the LDS cult. So far it has reaped good fruit! The Mormons can whine, and rant, and what not - God still works midst it all!

[Apologette]

Originally Posted by James Banta

I don't know of another churches, other than cults, that have offices for public relations.. IHS jim

Or who have to advertise on TV - the Romans do, and they are very close to Mormonism.

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Apologette

If I'm of no account, then why does he whine and whine because I won't respond to him....even to the point of unethical snooping. Who needs it! I don't post for Mormons anyway - I mostly post for those needing information about the history and doctrine of the LDS cult. So far it has reaped good fruit! The Mormons can whine, and rant, and what not - God still works midst it all!

Spreading the news of the dangers found in mormonism is a good thing to be doing.. Apologette let me more appeal to you as I have to the LDS here.. Please don't bring complaints and argument in here from CARM, or anywhere else for that matter.. It is stated in the rules like this "do not carry over arguments from other boards to the WM Board." Thanks for doing your best to stand up for Jesus and at the same time respecting the rules of the forum.. I am very glad you came back, please stay.. IHS jim

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Apologette

Or who have to advertise on TV - the Romans do, and they are very close to Mormonism.

The RCC is a cult.. A Christian cult but never the less a cult.. IHS jim

[James Banta]

[nrajeffreturns;149595]But you have not seen them, correct? Why is that? Are you afraid of what you might see?

WRONG! I was a Deacon of the church. I helped write the records.. I helped make sure each line item of income and expenditures was included.. What I said was, they are open to anyone that want to inspect them on a appointment basis..

Then in your next post, you will provide the monthly income and expenses of your church for the past 5 years, with the sources of the income, and the expenses itemized and identified, and the current balance stated. Correct?

No I will not. You may make an appointment with the board of Deacons and come inspect them yourself..

Yes, our church paid money for real estate, which put money into the economy. Then our church paid money for improvements on that land, which gave many people ***S. In case you forgot, ***s are GOOD things because they allow people to buy their food and clothes and pay for a place to live, and all those things provide TAXES which the city and state NEED in order to help people.

Really what you're saying with your mote-and-beam Pharisaism, is that our church has done far more to provide ***s and self-sufficiency, and has paid far more in taxes to help the local govt. and economy, than your church has.

And somehow that's a bad thing, in your mind. So bad that you actually think that by complaining, criticizing, and demonizing others, you're doing God's work.

Your puny church may give a few people a fish, so they can eat for a day. While our church gives out tons of fish, AND teaches people HOW to fish and provide for themselves so they won't have to show up next week for another fish to be donated by somebody else.

Yes and your church made money from that real estate. Rio Tinto Kennecott owns a lot of land here in the Salt Lake Valley, They made improvements on that land, In doing so they provided ***S. Good ***s that allow people all they needed plus a good way of life. They were at least honest in why they did what they did.. They did it for profit.. They provided a honest product for a honest price.. While I am not saying that the LDS church was dishonest, I am saying that this is an action of commerce not religion. Mormonism, because of this, is more a business than it is a church.. You then are an uninformed stock holder who leaves all decisions up to 15 men while not telling the stoke holder anything about how the business is being operated.. When the president of the company has spoken the thinking has been done..

My puny church units with many other such churches across the nation, even the world, to do great thing that the LDS church can't hold a candle to. We not only build homes, schools, and churches, we also staff them with teachers and ministers. We feed people as we train them in the most modern methods for feeding themselves. You need to do some study on the works of Christian missions.. The LDS church is puny in the amount of charity it provides.. LooK at what happened in the Philippines. The LDS church rightly sent aid, and it missionary force did kick in and help but Samaritan's Purse had been there all the time with heavy equipment, food, water, and shelter.. Was it enough.. Not nearly.. But I guarantee that when the LDS church has gone back to it's old ways of perverting the hearts and minds of as many people as will listen to them, Samaritan's Purse will still be there working to make life better in the islands..

Since Sandy Ridge is not a business like mormonism is we don't have a huge payroll we don't pay as much in taxes as any business.. But we give more as a percentage of our income to charities that help people.. And like you our people give to other Christian charities than the church..

All I have seen you say here is that your business does more that our church does.. Ok I am willing to admit that.. It is bigger.. Sandy Ridge has less than 100 members. Cut your numbers down to that level and you wouldn't be doing near as much. Am I being a Pharisee about this? Not at all.. In this exchange you haven't heard a word about what I do, nor will you ever.. Just as you won't hear Sandy Ridge sounding trumpets before them as they do the works God has predestined they should walk in..

It is a hard thing for thee to kick against the cacti.

Thanks for that statement.. To bad through you don't even understand that reference.. You would not have used it if you did.. IHS jim

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