Point of Order, misunderstanding on all sides.

[Pa Pa]

What Mormonism sought to right...

Many of you are correct...

Many Mormons think Trinity is Modelism, and vise versa, many Christians are both believers in both, we reject Modelism.

Many Mormons don't understand Calvinism, and too many Christians do a bad *** of making case. This is what restoration was meant reject such teaching.

Many Mormons and Christians are speaking different languages, ***igning incorrect terms to various doctrines.

I spend a lot of time correcting (with respect) Mormons in cl*** so they are not repeated in living rooms of investigators.

We all, Mormons and Christians misunderstand each other,,,,FAR to often.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Pa Pa

we reject Modelism.

You say that LDS reject Modelism but that is exactly how it is explained by many Mormons.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Pa Pa

Many Mormons don't understand Calvinism.

Including you. You said in another thread that people don't have a choice. Sure they have a choice and people are responsible for their choices.

[Pa Pa]

Originally Posted by Billyray

You say that LDS reject Modelism but that is exactly how it is explained by many Mormons.

That was my point...reread.

[Pa Pa]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Including you. You said in another thread that people don't have a choice. Sure they have a choice and people are responsible for their choices.

Never said that either...it has been my experience it is better to read though before thinking of your next comeback line.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Pa Pa

That was my point...reread.

But if your own leaders/teachers explain it that way then why do you say that LDS rejects modalism?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Pa Pa

Never said that either...it has been my experience it is better to read though before thinking of your next comeback line.

Here is your post from the other thread

Originally Posted by Pa Pa

If we cannot choose, then you are back to irresitable Grace and God as the puppet master.

[Pa Pa]

Originally Posted by Billyray

But if your own leaders/teachers explain it that way then why do you say that LDS rejects modalism?

Same thing except most leaders take time to get it right...I was speaking of Sunday School, Sacrament, etc.

[Pa Pa]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Here is your post from the other thread

You know full well that comment was about choosing salvation; why do you continue to misrepresent what I am saying? Again do you want a serious conversation or to play got ya?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Pa Pa

You know full well that comment was about choosing salvation; why do you continue to misrepresent what I am saying? Again do you want a serious conversation or to play got ya?

Here is your quote again

Originally Posted by Pa Pa

If we cannot choose, then you are back to irresitable Grace and God as the puppet master.

Perhaps you can tell me what you meant by this quote.

[Pa Pa]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Here is your quote again

Perhaps you can tell me what you meant by this quote.

Again why do you bold type the first few words and ignore the others, it clear I am speaking of choosing salvation instead of irresitable Grace which means we are acted upon, "drawn" all the verbiage that people use to make it clear that those not "predestined" cannot come unto God, cannot choose salvation. You do not need a PHD, to know what I was referring too. As I was taught growing up (gardening phrase) "hoe to the end of the row". How this apples here; read to the end of the sentence.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Pa Pa

Again why do you bold type the first few words and ignore the others, it clear I am speaking of choosing salvation instead of irresitable Grace which means we are acted upon, "drawn" all the verbiage that people use to make it clear that those not "predestined" cannot come unto God, cannot choose salvation. You do not need a PHD, to know what I was referring too. As I was taught growing up (gardening phrase) "hoe to the end of the row". How this apples here; read to the end of the sentence.

But everyone has a choice to either accept Christ or to reject Him.

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by Billyray

But everyone has a choice to either accept Christ or to reject Him.

How about a baby who dies the day after the delivery? Explain how that baby had a choice to either accept Christ or to reject Him.

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

How about a baby who dies the day after the delivery? Explain how that baby had a choice to either accept Christ or to reject Him.

Simple, The same way you guys do it..

Matthew 19:14
But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.

Jesus commanded that the children be allowed to come to Him just as they are allowed to come to Him in heaven.. These have the same choice that Calvinism teaches we all have.. All those He has chosen will come to him and those that come He will never cast out (John 6:37).. Tell me what choice little children have.. Then explain to me how any of the rest of us have any choice..


OH WAIT I KNOW.. THE WORDS OF JESUS WERE CORRUPTED AND WHAT IS TAUGHT IN THE BIBLE IS WRONG.. Total nonsense! IHS jim

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

How about a baby who dies the day after the delivery? Explain how that baby had a choice to either accept Christ or to reject Him.

A baby who dies the day after delivery does not have the understanding to accept/reject Christ. But this is not what I was talking about when you quoted me.

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by James Banta

Simple, The same way you guys do it..

Not according to Billy, who says that unlike adults, "A baby who dies the day after delivery does not have the understanding to accept/reject Christ.

OH WAIT I KNOW..

Apparently you don't know.

THE WORDS OF JESUS WERE CORRUPTED AND WHAT IS TAUGHT IN THE BIBLE IS WRONG.. Total nonsense! IHS jim

No, the words of Jesus seem fine. It's just your misinterpretation of them that is total nonsense. You misinterpreted a situation where some adults brought some kids to Jesus for a blessing, and His disciples told them to go away because Jesus was tired.

"... little children were brought to Jesus for him to place his hands on them and pray for them. But the disciples rebuked those who brought them. 14 Jesus said, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these." 15 When he had placed his hands on them, he went on from there."

You took that story, and changed into a support for your idea that babies can and do understand and accept Jesus and His gospel.

Even Billy disagrees with that.

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by Billyray

A baby who dies the day after delivery does not have the understanding to accept/reject Christ. But this is not what I was talking about when you quoted me.

Sorry. When I saw your claim that "everyone has a choice to either accept Christ or to reject Him" I ***umed you meant literally every human including babies who die shortly after birth.

So in the context of your reply to PaPa, were you actually referring only to people who are mature enough to understand and accept Jesus and the gospel?

[Pa Pa]

Originally Posted by Billyray

But everyone has a choice to either accept Christ or to reject Him.

Except in Calvinism where you may only choose him if he has already chosen us.

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Pa Pa

Except in Calvinism where you may only choose him if he has already chosen us.

This is the problem with mormonism.. It says that mormon doctrine is Bible doctrine but denies that God is spirit, denies that He is invisible.. Now PaPa denies that we did not choose God but He chose us.

John 15:16
Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

Eph 1:4-5
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will

That isn't Calvinism it is the word of God.. It hard for you to just trust His word and know that "We love him, because he first loved us." (1 John 4:19).. If you want to attack Calvinism do so on a doctrine not so clearly supported in the scripture.. After all.. "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. (John 6:37)..

Gee... maybe if you deny His word long enough and hard enough you can get the mormon Jesus to change his mind and only take the people who want him even if there were others given to Him by the Father.. If you want to be anti Christian I understand but don't come here and tell people that you believe in the God of the Bible and believe the Bible more than any other people.. You end up denying it at every turn.. IHS jim


IHS jim

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Pa Pa

Except in Calvinism where you may only choose him if he has already chosen us.

Here is my post again.

Originally Posted by Billyray

But everyone has a choice to either accept Christ or to reject Him.

You must not have read the post that you responded to.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

Not according to Billy, who says that unlike adults, "A baby who dies the day after delivery does not have the understanding to accept/reject Christ.

Do you really believe that PaPa and I were discussing infants who died (such as the post just above this one) when it comes to making a choice about accepting and rejecting Christ?

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Do you really believe that PaPa and I were discussing infants who died (such as the post just above this one) when it comes to making a choice about accepting and rejecting Christ?

People can stomp around and demand that they have a choice all they want.. God in His omniscience knows who will accept Him and who will not, from a time even before they were ever born. These He foreknew He predestined to salvation.. All the others remain the children of wrath..

As for the little ones Jesus taught us that allow the little children to come to Me, for such in the Kingdom of Heaven.. That should cover all their atheistic based questions.. IHS jim

[RealFakeHair]

Originally Posted by Pa Pa

What Mormonism sought to right...

Many of you are correct...

Many Mormons think Trinity is Modelism, and vise versa, many Christians are both believers in both, we reject Modelism.

Many Mormons don't understand Calvinism, and too many Christians do a bad *** of making case. This is what restoration was meant reject such teaching.

Many Mormons and Christians are speaking different languages, ***igning incorrect terms to various doctrines.

I spend a lot of time correcting (with respect) Mormons in cl*** so they are not repeated in living rooms of investigators.

We all, Mormons and Christians misunderstand each other,,,,FAR to often.

Once again you are pretty close to the facts. First mormon and christians use the same language, but have different definitions; example, (Church) LDS believe the LDSinc. withits organizational structure, laws and proper name is the true definition of Church found in the Holy Bible. The christian definition of (Church) is the body of believers in Christ of the Holy Bible

[Apologette]

Originally Posted by Pa Pa

What Mormonism sought to right...

Many of you are correct...

Many Mormons think Trinity is Modelism, and vise versa, many Christians are both believers in both, we reject Modelism.

Many Mormons don't understand Calvinism, and too many Christians do a bad *** of making case. This is what restoration was meant reject such teaching.

Many Mormons and Christians are speaking different languages, ***igning incorrect terms to various doctrines.

I spend a lot of time correcting (with respect) Mormons in cl*** so they are not repeated in living rooms of investigators.

We all, Mormons and Christians misunderstand each other,,,,FAR to often.

Actually, Pa Pa, Modalism or Sabellianism is taught in the Book of Mormon - some of these p***ages were later "corrected." Modalism teaches that there is One Person in the Godhead, and that that person has different "modes" or offices: sometimes Father, sometimes Son, and sometimes Holy Spirit. My feeling is that this got into the Book of Mormon via Sidney Rigdon who was booted out of the Baptists for heretical views. But that's just my view - may be wrong. Now, as to the Sabellianism in the Book of Mormon, you'll find it here:

“And now Abinadi said unto them: I would that ye should understand that God himself shall come down among the children of men, and shall redeem his people. And because he dwelleth in flesh he shall be called the Son of God, and having subjected the flesh to the will of the Father, being the Father and the Son -- The Father, because he was conceived by the power of God; and the Son, because of the flesh; thus becoming the Father and Son -- And they are one God, yea, the very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth. And thus the flesh becoming subject to the Spirit, or the Son to the Father, being one God, suffereth temptation, and yieldeth not to the temptation...”
(Book of Mormon, Mosiah 15:1-5).

You can see how different this is from today's Mormon teachings about the Father and Son being two different gods (the Holy Spirit another god).

Opposed to modalistic views, Christians hold that there is ONLY One God, and that He is Tripersonal in nature: three Persons subsisting within the One God eternally.

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Do you really believe that PaPa and I were discussing infants who died (such as the post just above this one) when it comes to making a choice about accepting and rejecting Christ?

You said EVERYONE, so how was I supposed to know that you didn't really mean everyone?