Point of Order, misunderstanding on all sides.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

You said EVERYONE, so how was I supposed to know that you didn't really mean everyone?

Perhaps you could go back and look at the discussion that PaPa and I were having--his point was that from the Calvinist point of view people do not have a choice. But as I said that is not what Calvinists believe in that they believe that each and every one of us chooses to either accept Christ or to reject Him (in context to our discussion we were not speaking about infants who die immediately after birth).

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by Billyray

...But as I said that is not what Calvinists believe in that they believe that each and every one of us chooses to either accept Christ or to reject Him (in context to our discussion we were not speaking about infants who die immediately after birth)

SO when you said

"each and every one of us"

you didn't mean

"each and every human being who has ever lived or who will live on this planet."

Okay.

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

SO when you said

"each and every one of us"

you didn't mean

"each and every human being who has ever lived or who will live on this planet."

Okay.

Is Billy saying that what he says here is inerrant? Is he speaking scripture? No he is allowed to make errors in his points of speech.. If he wasn't to exclude infants in his meaning then that is what he means. I say that Jesus allows all the little children to come to Him, and I base that on scripture.. Even believing mormon believes that a children who dies before they turn eight years old are taken to the celestial kingdom. Are they given a choice in life to decide if they want to obey or not? NO! This is a path in which you have no dissenting argument and you should just drop it unless you can explain how such children made that decision.. IHS jim

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by James Banta

Is Billy saying that what he says here is inerrant?

I don't know, but his interpretations of what the scriptures teach sometimes seem to be about as errant as yours are, IMO.

I say that Jesus allows all the little children to come to Him, and I base that on scripture..

Congrats--you agree with the LDS. I guess not everything the LDS believe is a lie, right?

Even believing mormon believes that a children who dies before they turn eight years old are taken to the celestial kingdom. Are they given a choice in life to decide if they want to obey or not? NO!

They p***ed enough of the test at that point.

This is a path in which you have no dissenting argument and you should just drop it unless you can explain how such children made that decision..

I hope you are right about there being no one here who disagrees with this LDS doctrine. I wasn't sure, since Billy rarely admits that any LDS belief is correct. The cause of my concern was the fact that apparently many Evangelicals believe that if you don't accept Jesus and His gospel in this life, before you die, then you cannot be saved and you must spend eternity in the fiery pit of hell. This would be a problem for kids who die young and for anyone else who dies before they got a chance to hear and accept the gospel and learn about Jesus.

[Pa Pa]

Originally Posted by Billyray

But everyone has a choice to either accept Christ or to reject Him.

Except in the mind of cultist who are draw. To him by irresitable Grace...the un-chosen could not do so if they wanted. These poor souls are pre-rejected. It is elitism at it's worst. I tell you this because if unrepentant "Clavinist" will wake to the horror of the God they worship, but on his left hand. This is the only way he could be just, by ***igning the judgement they place upon others, for in them lies the greater sin.

[Pa Pa]

Originally Posted by James Banta

This is the problem with mormonism.. It says that mormon doctrine is Bible doctrine but denies that God is spirit, denies that He is invisible.. Now PaPa denies that we did not choose God but He chose us.




IHS jim

So you are a Calvinist...also you believe that no man has seen God? Even with all the evidence?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Pa Pa

Except in the mind of cultist who are draw.

I have told you multiple times now and you simply have ignored what I have said. Why is that PaPa?

[James Banta]

[nrajeffreturns;149333]I don't know, but his interpretations of what the scriptures teach sometimes seem to be about as errant as yours are, IMO.

Oh yes my interpretation are all wrong because instead of making up a meaning I believe just what the scripture says.. Because of that and the LDS teaching that the Bible is a corrupted document I must be teaching error.. Never mind that Jesus, who is God, promised that His word (and even the LDS call the Bible the word of God) will never die.. But You want to believe a man (Joseph Smith) before you will believe God..

Congrats--you agree with the LDS. I guess not everything the LDS believe is a lie, right?

I am not one that would say that.. I will say that ALL of mormonism is based on the testimony of Joseph Smith and that foundation is nothing but a lie..

They p***ed enough of the test at that point.

As I understand the doctrine these had no need to be tested at all.. They proved their worthiness in your man invented preexistence.

I hope you are right about there being no one here who disagrees with this LDS doctrine. I wasn't sure, since Billy rarely admits that any LDS belief is correct. The cause of my concern was the fact that apparently many Evangelicals believe that if you don't accept Jesus and His gospel in this life, before you die, then you cannot be saved and you must spend eternity in the fiery pit of hell. This would be a problem for kids who die young and for anyone else who dies before they got a chance to hear and accept the gospel and learn about Jesus.

You are again wrong.. This isn't an LDS doctrine. This is a teaching found in the Bible.. IT is one Bible teaching that the LDS are not completely in error in teaching.. It wasn't Smith that taught this first. It is Jesus that told His followers to allow the little children to come to Him because that is the way of the Kingdom of God.. JESUS HOWEVER PUTS NO AGE LIMIT ON THAT TEACHING. Some children can't understand the subst itutionary sacrifice Jesus made for them at the age of eight. Others will never have the consciousness or intellectual prowess to make such a commitment to Jesus.. The age of eight is never used in the scripture as the day when self awareness awakens in the mind of a child.. It happens when it happens.

NO CHRISTIAN, not one, believes the Catholic doctrine that infants aren't saved until they are baptized. Christian believe that a self aware person who neglects his salvation will be ****ed and there is no second chance..

John 9:4
I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.

2 Cor 6:2
For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.

Then there is the parable of the rich man and Lazarth.. We are taught there at even a messenger from God will not be sent to even warn the living of the perils to come.. Nope no second chances. A person either response to the revelation of Jesus they are given or they suffer the pains of hell which God prepared for Satan and those that would follow his ways.. IHS jim

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Pa Pa

So you are a Calvinist...also you believe that no man has seen God? Even with all the evidence?

Since the Bible says that no man has seen God, that the Son has declared Him (John 1:18). So I can say with Biblical authority that no man has ever seen the invisible God. That ever time man has seen God it has been Jesus and not the Father they have had an experience with..

Hey even LDS doctrine teaches that Joseph Smith could have seen God in 1820..

D&C 84:21-22
And without the ordinances thereof, and the authority of the priesthood, the power of godliness is not manifest unto men in the flesh;
For without this no man can see the face of God, even the Father, and live.

Smith had no priesthood in 1820; but as always mormonism breaks it own rules in it's operations.. IHS jim

[alanmolstad]

you see the diciples tried to keep little kids from getting close to the Lord because they ***umed that you had to be older to understand or to be important enough for the lord to stop and deal with.

But the lord seems to think that of such is the kingdom made.

This teaches us many things about what heaven is like, but among the things is the idea that heaven is filled with kids who were too young to really understand, yet were invited to heaven by our Lord.

Each person is called.
Each person according to the calling is held to account for how they responded to that calling.
That means that even a baby that dies before being born, also receives this calling/invitation too, and is judged not according to the same standard you or I will be judged, but rather according to the standard set by the god who judges justly all people, from the youngest to the oldest.....(to the person who receives much, much will be asked.....the servant that receives the most, is held to a higher standard at the master's return.)


This is why most Christians believe that all children that die before being of age are with the lord in heaven...Its because they do not have to live up to a standard that adults must meet.

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

you see the diciples tried to keep little kids from getting close to the Lord because they ***umed that you had to be older to understand or to be important enough for the lord to stop and deal with.

But the lord seems to think that of such is the kingdom made.

This teaches us many things about what heaven is like, but among the things is the idea that heaven is filled with kids who were too young to really understand, yet were invited to heaven by our Lord.

Each person is called.
Each person according to the calling is held to account for how they responded to that calling.
That means that even a baby that dies before being born, also receives this calling/invitation too, and is judged not according to the same standard yo9u or I will be judged, but rather according to the standard set by the god who judges justly all people, from the youngest to the oldest.....(to the person who receives much, much will be asked.....the servant that receives the most, is held to a higher standard at the master's return.)


This is why most Christians believe that all children that die before being of age are with the lord in heaven...Its because they do not have to live up to a standard that adults must meet.

Really? Doesn't Jesus teach that all of us must come to Him as a little child? Seems we all are judged by the same standard after all.. Does God see us as perfect in the righteousness of Jesus? That is the standard of judgement for all.. Perfection, to be perfect as He is perfect.. Only in the imputed righteousness of Jesus can we approach the throne of God with confidence. It doesn't matter then what our age is, only that we are perfect is the eyes of God because of the work of our Lord Jesus.. IHS jim

[alanmolstad]

One of the ideas Jesus taught was that none of us has to match the same standard as the next person...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vVXMUDC_pw8