The Unpardonable Sin (and why I don't believe Anti-LDS Inc.)

[Sir]

Originally Posted by RealFakeHair

If you can a yes or no answer will do. Can a TBM lose their exaltation once that have it?

Why do you expect a yes or no will suffice when you are trying to understand what LDS believe based on concepts the LDS don't believe?

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by RealFakeHair

If you can a yes or no answer will do. Can a TBM lose their exaltation once that have it?

You need to learn a few things about LDS soteriology before your question can be answered.
LDS don't believe in OBIS or OSAS while the person is in mortality, generally speaking. Eternal life is a FUTURE event, which person is given on Judgment day, which occurs after Resurrection Day.

[RealFakeHair]

Originally Posted by Sir

Why do you expect a yes or no will suffice when you are trying to understand what LDS believe based on concepts the LDS don't believe?

For some reason I expect this kind of answer. Oh by the way why can't you give a yes or no? I am not trying to trap you, I do realize not all questions come with a yes or no, but for the life of me I can't reason why you are hesitant to give a simple yes or no, is there a reason for your none answer?

[RealFakeHair]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

You need to learn a few things about LDS soteriology before your question can be answered.
LDS don't believe in OBIS or OSAS while the person is in mortality, generally speaking. Eternal life is a FUTURE event, which person is given on Judgment day, which occurs after Resurrection Day.

Thank you for trying a yes or no, well I do understand the mortal vs the immortal to exaltation or saved.
Your answer is of course at anytime a TBM can slip out of his exaltation slippers. What I mean is he can be walking towards his reward and at the last moment lose it all.

[Sir]

Originally Posted by RealFakeHair

For some reason I expect this kind of answer. Oh by the way why can't you give a yes or no? I am not trying to trap you, I do realize not all questions come with a yes or no, but for the life of me I can't reason why you are hesitant to give a simple yes or no, is there a reason for your none answer?

nrajeff gave a pretty good reason why.

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

You need to learn a few things about LDS soteriology before your question can be answered.
LDS don't believe in OBIS or OSAS while the person is in mortality, generally speaking. Eternal life is a FUTURE event, which person is given on Judgment day, which occurs after Resurrection Day.

This must be another Biblical doctrine that the LDS have decided to either ignore or deny.. But what could the Bible say about this? Lets look..

John 11:25-26
Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

1 John 5:13
These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

How is it that believers are promised that they will never die? All men die.. And yet there is Jesus say that all who believe in His will never die? Why is it that the Holy Spirit teaches us through the Apostle John that those that believe have eternal life? Did Jesus really teach that all who believe in Him would live in the flesh till He comes? He must have been teaching a different kind of life to teach that we who believe would never die? If we aren't alive physically we don't have to be spiritually dead. That tell us that those live and believe in Him will never die, because that have eternal life. NOT LATER BUT WHILE THEY LIVE.. So why is it you tell us that the LDS church denies these truths and yet insist that the LDS are believers in the Bible? IHS jim

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Sir

nrajeff gave a pretty good reason why.

If you agree with him then you also prove you know little about the Bible.. You can read my answer to him to see what the Bible teaches as to when eternal live comes to a believer.. Just because the LDS church denies truth doesn't change truth into a lie.. IHS jim

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by RealFakeHair

Thank you for trying a yes or no, well I do understand the mortal vs the immortal to exaltation or saved.

Do you understand the concept of the path that leads to eternal life?

Your answer is of course at anytime a TBM can slip out of his exaltation slippers.

You are of course wrong, if you're saying that LDS believe that a person can lose his salvation. You can't lose something that hasn't been given to you yet.

What I mean is he can be walking towards his reward and at the last moment lose it all.

Well done. Yes, the Bible doctrine that it's possible to start down the path that LEADS to eternal life, but stray OFF that path and end up at some other destination--is also an LDS doctrine.

Do you have a problem with that Biblical doctrine?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by theway

No.... Only in the world of Calvinist heresies is there such a thing as the unbiblical Salvation Security as you know it.

What is unbiblical about what he said?

[theway]

Originally Posted by Billyray

What is unbiblical about what he said?

What wasn't!!!

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by theway

What wasn't!!!

The idea that we can never lose our salvation is what isn't unbiblical.. Jesus said:

John 6:37
All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

Therefore it is unbiblical to hold a belief that anyone the Father gives to Jesus will ever be cast out. You notice that there is no exceptions in this for a person who falls into sin once they come. Instead Jesus teaches us that there is no reason He would ever cast such a person, that the Father had given to Him, out.. No room for denial that once saved always saved is not of God, that it is a man invented doctrine. There it is right in the words spoken by Jesus. You asked so I thought you should be told what wasn't unbiblical.. IHS jim

[theway]

Originally Posted by James Banta

The idea that we can never lose our salvation is what isn't unbiblical.. Jesus said:

John 6:37
All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

Therefore it is unbiblical to hold a belief that anyone the Father gives to Jesus will ever be cast out. You notice that there is no exceptions in this for a person who falls into sin once they come. Instead Jesus teaches us that there is no reason He would ever cast such a person, that the Father had given to Him, out.. No room for denial that once saved always saved is not of God, that it is a man invented doctrine. There it is right in the words spoken by Jesus. You asked so I thought you should be told what wasn't unbiblical.. IHS jim

More unbiblical rubbish.... In fact, you don't even make sense coming from your own point of view????

Listen... It's very simple.

If you believe you can not lose your salvation, (salvation being defined from your point of view) then you likewise believe that it is impossible for someone to know whether are not they are really saved.

For instance, if I believed I was saved after having made an alter call with a sincere heart, and then 2 years later I commited a rape and a murder; then which is true?

1. That's proof I was never saved to begin with.

Or...

2. No need to worry, because Christ already had that one covered.

[Sir]

Originally Posted by theway

More unbiblical rubbish.... In fact, you don't even make sense coming from your own point of view????

Listen... It's very simple.

If you believe you can not lose your salvation, (salvation being defined from your point of view) then you likewise believe that it is impossible for someone to know whether are not they are really saved.

For instance, if I believed I was saved after having made an alter call with a sincere heart, and then 2 years later I commited a rape and a murder; then which is true?

1. That's proof I was never saved to begin with.

Or...

2. No need to worry, because Christ already had that one covered.

Good point.

They will say that God knows your heart, and if you really believed in Jesus, then the answer is #2.

But if you are someone who has accepted the gospel of Jesus and then goes down a different path later on, they will say that you simply were never saved in the first place. That's how they justify their position when the problems arise. It's easier to just claim the person was never really saved in the first place than to understand how people can believe different things about Jesus and his gospel and still be saved.

[RealFakeHair]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

Do you understand the concept of the path that leads to eternal life?


You are of course wrong, if you're saying that LDS believe that a person can lose his salvation. You can't lose something that hasn't been given to you yet.


Well done. Yes, the Bible doctrine that it's possible to start down the path that LEADS to eternal life, but stray OFF that path and end up at some other destination--is also an LDS doctrine.
Do you have a problem with that Biblical doctrine?

There in lies the difference between LDSinc. and The Christian belief of of Once saved always saved, as I believe.
I believe the Grace of Jesus Christ through His blood over came what the Law could not do. It gives the believe eternal security in Christ Jesus, or else why have the blood of Christ at all? Just keep the old Law and the sarifice altar fires buring.

[theway]

Originally Posted by Sir

Good point.

They will say that God knows your heart, and if you really believed in Jesus, then the answer is #2.

.

That's the problem, it's not whether God knows, it's can you know whether you are saved or not under AntiMormon theology? Under the AntiMormon theology, you'll always be second guessing yourself.

I am saved and I sin!

Or is it

I sin, am I saved?

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by RealFakeHair

There in lies the difference between LDSinc. and The Christian belief of of Once saved always saved, as I believe.

And OSAS is a dogma of Calvinism, and Calvinism is a small subset of Christianity. So you can get away with calling OSAS a Christian belief, as long as you are willing to also call Catholic Transubstantiation or Mary as a Coredemptrix, Christian beliefs.

Are you willing to do that?

I believe the Grace of Jesus Christ through His blood over came what the Law could not do. It gives the believe eternal security in Christ Jesus, or else why have the blood of Christ at all? Just keep the old Law and the sarifice altar fires buring.

You are on an irrelevant tangent. The issue is whether all who start on the path that leads to eternal life have some unconditional guarantee that they will stay on it to its destination. If the correct answer is "no" (which it is), then OSAS has one huge strike against it being true.

[theway]

Originally Posted by RealFakeHair

There in lies the difference between LDSinc. and The Christian belief of of Once saved always saved, as I believe.
I believe the Grace of Jesus Christ through His blood over came what the Law could not do. It gives the believe eternal security in Christ Jesus, or else why have the blood of Christ at all? Just keep the old Law and the sarifice altar fires buring.

So you are saying that if you went out and killed someone, that you know you would have nothing to worry about with God.

[Sir]

Originally Posted by theway

That's the problem, it's not whether God knows, it's can you know whether you are saved or not under AntiMormon theology? Under the AntiMormon theology, you'll always be second guessing yourself.

I am saved and I sin?

Or is it

I sin, am I saved?

Or is it, i no longer believe the Bible the same way I did when I was saved, am I now NOT saved? Or does that mean I was never saved in the first place?

Yep....

[RealFakeHair]

Originally Posted by theway

So you are saying that if you went out and killed someone, that you know you would have nothing to worry about with God.

I didn't say it was fair that I could kill someone or more than one person and still be Saved, but I didn't make the rule.
We humans seem to be quite able to condemn a murder to eternal exile, but excuse a little white lie, but to God a sin is a sin.
PS to the person I killed, I wonder if they were so willingly to forgive? Oh by the way it is only a hypothetical question, I haven killed anyone yet.

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by RealFakeHair

I didn't say it was fair that I could kill someone or more than one person and still be Saved, but I didn't make the rule.
We humans seem to be quite able to condemn a murder to eternal exile, but excuse a little white lie, but to God a sin is a sin.
PS to the person I killed, I wonder if they were so willingly to forgive? Oh by the way it is only a hypothetical question, I haven killed anyone yet.

By what Jesus taught us I am a murderer.. I have been angry more than once without just cause.. According to our Lord that is murder.. IHS jim

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by theway

More unbiblical rubbish.... In fact, you don't even make sense coming from your own point of view????

Listen... It's very simple.

If you believe you can not lose your salvation, (salvation being defined from your point of view) then you likewise believe that it is impossible for someone to know whether are not they are really saved.

For instance, if I believed I was saved after having made an alter call with a sincere heart, and then 2 years later I commited a rape and a murder; then which is true?

1. That's proof I was never saved to begin with.

Or...

2. No need to worry, because Christ already had that one covered.

I know you hate my "unbiblical rubbish" but my answers are embedded in it. That which you attack with those words is the Bible.. Your answer to how we know we are saved and why once we are saved we forever belong to Jesus is Biblical..

1 John 5:13
These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

If you believe in Jesus you have Eternal life.. Even in mormonism eternal life and salvation mean the same thing..

2 Corinthians 5:21
For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him

How can a person made to be the righteousness of God and still be seen as being in sin of any kind.. You laid the ground rules here you said that This man's confession was sincere.. In that case it isn't he that sinned but sin that lives in his flesh (Romans 7:17).. But that is unbiblical rubbish too, right? After it has the same source of all my unbiblical rubbish.. The Bible.. IHS jim

[alanmolstad]

Here is the answer:

If you read the Mat 12 verse that is at the heart of this issue what you learn is that the sin that is not forgiven is to speak against the Holy Spirit.
The example given us was that some Jews said that Jesus cast out demons by the power of the devil.

So we have to look at this issue with the understanding that the unforgivable sin had something to do with the ability of a person to believe Jesus had the authority to do his works from God and not from the devil.

But it is also interesting to remember that the Jews that were the target of the unforgivable sin teaching did not actually bring up the name of the Holy Spirit....nor would I expect them to even know about the Holy Spirit.

So the sin that is always unforgiving seems to cover a bunch of stuff, and we are not talking about one single type of list-able sin, but rather an "at***ude that rejects Jesus's authority"



So we dont have to worry that you might have said the wrong wording one time and broken the unforgivable sin.
and you dont have to worry that you might have broken this sin....for the truth is, the people that are truly guilty never worry about it.....Thats why the sin is never dealt with,,,never repented of.



So the person that claims that the "Unforgivable sin" is talking about many types of things is correct.