Why Changes to the Temple Ceremony?

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Sir

Yes.

If you go write on someone's board how much you don't like LDS people or say bad things about them, it is perfectly ethical for a LDS to post such comments on the LDS board.

Why not?

What Anti-LDS say to other Anti-LDS on their walls is usually more of their honest opinions. Why not post them? Those who speak negatively of LDS in private will be rewarded openly.

And by the way.....all visitor messages are made for public access. There isn't any malicious hacking or invasion of privacy.

Go ahead.. I post what I post in private because it was meant for one person not the whole channel.. If you are interested please feel free to post what I say even to other Christians.. Understand we are coming from a place of joint agreement.. You might not like seeing the teachings of your church discussed with so little respect.. But If you want to I will tell you openly what a lie I believe mormonism to be and why.. I thought I was doing that with regularity anyway.. IHS jim

[Sir]

Originally Posted by James Banta

Go ahead.. I post what I post in private because it was meant for one person not the whole channel.. If you are interested please feel free to post what I say even to other Christians.. Understand we are coming from a place of joint agreement.. You might not like seeing the teachings of your church discussed with so little respect.. But If you want to I will tell you openly what a lie I believe mormonism to be and why.. I thought I was doing that with regularity anyway.. IHS jim

You are not even part of this conversation or issue.

You really need to interject yourself into everything, don't you?

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

If someone were to search the forum for posts by you where you referred to Joseph Smith as "Joey" would they find anything? Isn't "Joey" a name that an uneducated backwoods hillbilly might use?

It sure is and I would be happy to show a bit more curtsey but that has been laid aside by sin.. So jeff sorry but when I post responses to sin he will get joey.. When I post to you I will use Joseph.. If I am referred to by a less than faltering name and I have asked for it not to be used, but it persists. Het Joseph Smith didn't ask me not to call him joey. This is the only way I can think of within the rules of the forum to show that it is plain rude.. Sorry you all have to be punished for the sins of one rude poster.. IHS jim

[Sir]

Originally Posted by James Banta

It sure is and I would be happy to show a bit more curtsey but that has been laid aside by sin.. So jeff sorry but when I post responses to sin he will get joey.. When I post to you I will use Joseph.. If I am referred to by a less than faltering name and I have asked for it not to be used, but it persists. Het Joseph Smith didn't ask me not to call him joey. This is the only way I can think of within the rules of the forum to show that it is plain rude.. Sorry you all have to be punished for the sins of one rude poster.. IHS jim

Better proofread your post again...

LOL....

wow.

What's a "less faltering name"?

[neverending]

Dear Snow,
Please don't get me started on the things you've done, mostly from comments made here. It is so hard to have any good feelings about members of your church when all I've ever known is their snotty ways, excluding me from their clicky groups and ignoring me when I tried to be friends. As for people working in a store, how would I know if they are LDS or not? I don't ask people....and Snow, just because I live in the Salt Lake Valley doesn't mean everyone I run into is a Mormon.
When two small girls were left with James and I years ago when their mother had to go to the hospital, and it was the dead of winter in North Dakota; these girls were desti tute. The one little girl had lost all the ****ons off her coat. Neither one of them had gloves or boots and their clothes were worn out. I made a call to the Relief Society President, Francine Jarmin. I told her of the situation and asked if an announcement could be made next time we met for Relief Society that these girls could use some hand me downs, I didn't ask for brand new items. Nothing was offered. I finally cut the ****ons off my own coat and made a way to work them onto the poor girls coat so she could stay warm. Finally out of desperation for these girls, I made an appointment to talk to the Branch President, President Gordhammer. As I met with him and told him of the situation and could the church help out in some way, this is what he told me, "there will be no help for these children since their mother doesn't attend her meetings as she should." Yes! That is what I was told. I was so shocked by his comment, I didn't even know how to respond. I do know that the Lord will be judging him harshly for turning his back on two young children who, due to no fault of their own were left in our care, not even knowing us and they were needing help. How horribly selfish of the church when they bring in millions daily. I don't care what you say about this incident, for Sir will make fun and say it's just another rant, anecdote, and I am making it up. Think what you will, we know what happened. And if you've done it unto the least of these my brethren, you've done it unto me.

[Sir]

Originally Posted by neverending

Dear Snow,
Please don't get me started on the things you've done, mostly from comments made here. It is so hard to have any good feelings about members of your church when all I've ever known is their snotty ways, excluding me from their clicky groups and ignoring me when I tried to be friends. As for people working in a store, how would I know if they are LDS or not? I don't ask people....and Snow, just because I live in the Salt Lake Valley doesn't mean everyone I run into is a Mormon.
When two small girls were left with James and I years ago when their mother had to go to the hospital, and it was the dead of winter in North Dakota; these girls were desti tute. The one little girl had lost all the ****ons off her coat. Neither one of them had gloves or boots and their clothes were worn out. I made a call to the Relief Society President, Francine Jarmin. I told her of the situation and asked if an announcement could be made next time we met for Relief Society that these girls could use some hand me downs, I didn't ask for brand new items. Nothing was offered. I finally cut the ****ons off my own coat and made a way to work them onto the poor girls coat so she could stay warm. Finally out of desperation for these girls, I made an appointment to talk to the Branch President, President Gordhammer. As I met with him and told him of the situation and could the church help out in some way, this is what he told me, "there will be no help for these children since their mother doesn't attend her meetings as she should." Yes! That is what I was told. I was so shocked by his comment, I didn't even know how to respond. I do know that the Lord will be judging him harshly for turning his back on two young children who, due to no fault of their own were left in our care, not even knowing us and they were needing help. How horribly selfish of the church when they bring in millions daily. I don't care what you say about this incident, for Sir will make fun and say it's just another rant, anecdote, and I am making it up. Think what you will, we know what happened. And if you've done it unto the least of these my brethren, you've done it unto me.

All I can say is, when it comes to these stories from you, I can see why you made "neverending" your username.

[neverending]

If all you can do is find fault with a misspelled word then why are you here? Where are your scriptures Sir? Why don't you defend your religion. NOPE! All you do is come here and make fun of others and that is just the example I've stated about the rude, cruel and unkind treatment of LDS members to non-members and even to your own. Good for you, you should be proud!!

[neverending]

Shut the hell up for once!! And as for your name......you don't deserve to be called Sir.....but I can think of many names you ought to call yourself!!

[Sir]

Originally Posted by neverending

If all you can do is find fault with a misspelled word then why are you here? Where are your scriptures Sir? Why don't you defend your religion. NOPE! All you do is come here and make fun of others and that is just the example I've stated about the rude, cruel and unkind treatment of LDS members to non-members and even to your own. Good for you, you should be proud!!

Yes, your "neverending" stories. Sadly, you are so bitter and angry about the LDS that you have blinded yourself to anything good found in the church or the people. So you simply rant about this or that LDS person who supposedly mistreated you, or the LDS person that wouldn't help you. As was pointed out, you are so blinded by your hate that you even claim that ALL LDS are that way and there is no good in them. So then when a LDS person points out your flaws, you engage your programmed emotional response of emoting in sweeping generalizations and hyperbole. Such irrational judgments weaken your argument and we see what you apparently cannot because you are willfully blinded and hardened

[Sir]

Originally Posted by neverending

Shut the hell up for once!! And as for your name......you don't deserve to be called Sir.....but I can think of many names you ought to call yourself!!

Whoa!......blood pressure........remember?

Chill.

(the red font is a nice touch though)

[neverending]

Originally Posted by Sir

Yes, your "neverending" stories. Sadly, you are so bitter and angry about the LDS that you have blinded yourself to anything good found in the church or the people. So you simply rant about this or that LDS person who supposedly mistreated you, or the LDS person that wouldn't help you. As was pointed out, you are so blinded by your hate that you even claim that ALL LDS are that way and there is no good in them. So then when a LDS person points out your flaws, you engage your programmed emotional response of emoting in sweeping generalizations and hyperbole. Such irrational judgments weaken your argument and we see what you apparently cannot because you are willfully blinded and hardened

OH and you should talk because you are the PERFECT example of the LDS I've been talking about. And I have every reason to feel the way I do about you and ALL Mormons!! You claim to have the truth but yet, I see none in you and have found none. So, when will you start defending your religion with scripture. I accuse you of not knowing any. You do your own amount of ranting as well and you have your hatred for non-LDS or you wouldn't make the comments you do.

[Sir]

Originally Posted by neverending

OH and you should talk because you are the PERFECT example of the LDS I've been talking about. And I have every reason to feel the way I do about you and ALL Mormons!!

Well, sure, bigots usually "have a reason" to feel negative about an entire group of people. Your justification is no different than the KKK or Nazis.

You claim to have the truth but yet, I see none in you and have found none. So, when will you start defending your religion with scripture. I accuse you of not knowing any. You do your own amount of ranting as well and you have your hatred for non-LDS or you wouldn't make the comments you do.

No, you are just projecting your hatred onto me. It isn't even subtle or hidden, given you have already told us how you feel about ALL LDS people. I'm not offended. It's just sad to see how you can be filled with so much bitterness and anger toward an entire group of people, and then pontificate on how you are such a Christian.

[neverending]

Originally Posted by Sir

Well, sure, bigots usually "have a reason" to feel negative about an entire group of people. Your justification is no different than the KKK or Nazis.



No, you are just projecting your hatred onto me. It isn't even subtle or hidden, given you have already told us how you feel about ALL LDS people. I'm not offended. It's just sad to see how you can be filled with so much bitterness and anger toward an entire group of people, and then pontificate on how you are such a Christian.

A real shame that you've lost this argument accusing me of being like the KKK and Nazis? Anytime one has to resort to that, it's a lost cause. I have never claimed to be perfect. And I will ALWAYS speak out against any religion that teaches falsehoods as Mormonism does. How often have you been told that you believe in a different god and Jesus then Christians? You claim a prophet who is supposed to converse with god but yet could be fooled by Mark Hoffman (Pres. Kimball). You make claims of the importance of a temple and that if any member of your church doesn't obtain those ordinances, they can never gain their exaltation and yet, a majority of your members can't get a recommend to go. Your church has made changes to that temple ritual which Joseph Smith claimed was given to him by god but it was CHANGED in 1990 because, the numbers of members attending the temple was slacking off. Far to many converts were being insulted by the part where the Pastor is accused of being paid by Lucifer. And many women had issues with the blood oaths and penalties. How can you change something that was ordained by god? At least by your god. You claim to be the only true church but I've yet to witness in my life, LDS members living the truth but being judgmental and mean spirited. Yes, I am bitter for the way I was treated as well as my family. It is all a lie, you live a lie everyday.
Again I ask, why don't you defend your religion with scripture but you never do. So once again I accuse you of not knowing any. "For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God" ( 1 Cor. 1:18).

[Sir]

Originally Posted by neverending

A real shame that you've lost this argument accusing me of being like the KKK and Nazis? Anytime one has to resort to that, it's a lost cause.

Godwin's Law doesn't really apply here. But I understand the need to brush it aside since my ****ogy pretty much put you into the light you are in - a bigot.

I have never claimed to be perfect. And I will ALWAYS speak out against any religion that teaches falsehoods as Mormonism does. How often have you been told that you believe in a different god and Jesus then Christians? You claim a prophet who is supposed to converse with god but yet could be fooled by Mark Hoffman (Pres. Kimball). You make claims of the importance of a temple and that if any member of your church doesn't obtain those ordinances, they can never gain their exaltation and yet, a majority of your members can't get a recommend to go. Your church has made changes to that temple ritual which Joseph Smith claimed was given to him by god but it was CHANGED in 1990 because, the numbers of members attending the temple was slacking off. Far to many converts were being insulted by the part where the Pastor is accused of being paid by Lucifer. And many women had issues with the blood oaths and penalties. How can you change something that was ordained by god? At least by your god. You claim to be the only true church but I've yet to witness in my life, LDS members living the truth but being judgmental and mean spirited. Yes, I am bitter for the way I was treated as well as my family. It is all a lie, you live a lie everyday.

Boring rant noted.

Again I ask, why don't you defend your religion with scripture but you never do. So once again I accuse you of not knowing any. "For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God" ( 1 Cor. 1:18).

You can accuse all you want. I'm not interested in throwing around Bible verses with you. You've already demonstrated the lack of gospel knowledge you possess, so simply throwing around a verse at the end of your rants doesn't mean much.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by neverending

. . .Again I ask, why don't you defend your religion with scripture but you never do. . .

Originally Posted by Sir

. . . I'm not interested in throwing around Bible verses with you. . .

Of course you are not interested. You know that you can't defend your own beliefs from the Bible because they run counter to what the Bible teaches so you would much rather talk about anything else. Right?

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by neverending

And I have every reason to feel the way I do about you and ALL Mormons!!

One fallacy I see in that generalization is that if it were true, it would mean that 100% of the people who join the LDS church as converts would have to be mean, selfish people. The millions of Baptists, Methodists, Catholics, Jews, Lutherans, Presbyterians, etc. who leave those churches and join the LDS church are uncaring, evil Scrooges? That just defies common sense.

With my calling as a clerk and the husband of a Relief Society president, I see LDS members making big sacrifices for other people on a weekly basis. That's how I know from personal experience that Jim's wife's accusation is extremely false, as one would expect if a similar accusation were made against all Baptists or all Jews or all Republicans or all black people.

[Snow Patrol]

Originally Posted by neverending

Dear Snow,
Please don't get me started on the things you've done, mostly from comments made here.

No, I would like you to show me what I've done that has been unkind to you. The reason I would like to know is because unfortunately when someone starts making gross generalizations, they tend to let their hatred overwhelm them and they start making irrational comments. This is one of those times I'm afraid. I make a great effort to be considerate and polite on this forum and so I would like you to provide evidence of me being unkind to you.

[neverending]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

One fallacy I see in that generalization is that if it were true, it would mean that 100% of the people who join the LDS church as converts would have to be mean, selfish people. The millions of Baptists, Methodists, Catholics, Jews, Lutherans, Presbyterians, etc. who leave those churches and join the LDS church are uncaring, evil Scrooges? That just defies common sense.

With my calling as a clerk and the husband of a Relief Society president, I see LDS members making big sacrifices for other people on a weekly basis. That's how I know from personal experience that Jim's wife's accusation is extremely false, as one would expect if a similar accusation were made against all Baptists or all Jews or all Republicans or all black people.

The millions? I know, it's only words, no truth to it. From what I've read, there are many members leaving your church. I think more and more people are turning their backs on God then wanting to be a part of any religion or attend any church. We can see where this has lead us, our nation falling apart because of a lack of God fearing people. Atheists who whine about seeing a cross by the side of the rode where someone was killed. I find that really sad. We even had vandals here where I live who destroyed a Menorah from one of the Jewish Synagogues. It will only get worse. We've seen vandalism happening to many different denominations within the past few months. The world is becoming more evil all the time. All I can say is keep your loved ones close and pray for them.

[Ma'am]

Originally Posted by RealFakeHair

I don't know what went wrong, but when Joseph Smith jr. got the everlasting never to change again gospel from the book with the golden bible or Book of Mormon, and not the mention all them up to date revelations from his mormon god one might think the LDSinc. gospel would have never changed, but we know different don't we.
Oh well maybe jo should have said, " the everlasting gospel, until further notice. lol

Could be. Mormonism is built upon shifting sand.

[Ma'am]

Originally Posted by Snow Patrol

Good question. Times change. The temple movie changes. There was a time where there wasn't a movie. The underlying ordinances have not changed or gone away. How those ordinances are carried out has. Just like baptism. Originally it was done in a river or lake. Now, in many cases it is done in a building. I have done a baptism in a river before. Again, the ordinances are still performed, which is the critical thing.

Now as to your comment..."Can you see where trying to understand Mormonism is full of so many conflicting doctrines and very difficult to keep track of? God is NOT the author of confusion. For it says in 1 Cor.14:33, "For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints." I can say the same about modern Christianity. Doctrines change, ie.. women clergy, gay marriage, etc. Even doctrines in the different denominations are different. Talk about confusion. It is all different in Christianity.

The temple endowment ceremony most definitely did change--the blood oaths were taken out, the part of the play where Satan pays clergy in Christendom to preach false doctrines was taken out ,as was the anointing with oil on bare skin, under the robes, and the five points of touching--mouth to ear, foot to foot, etc.

These are BIG changes. To say that the ordinance didn't change is to be very disingenuous. Or to deliberately blind oneself to the truth.

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Sir

Better proofread your post again...

LOL....

wow.

What's a "less faltering name"?

Nit picking a bit aren't you sin.. Yes I am calling you sin.. That is the name you deserve because of your actions.. No matter about a misspelled word here and there all the others here are smart enough to read through them.. Seems all but one.. BTW unless you make some effort to show a reason why mormonism is God's one true Church, or how the Christian Church is false I no longer see any reason to respond to your personal attack ridden posts.. IHS jim

[Sir]

Originally Posted by James Banta

I no longer see any reason to respond to your personal attack ridden posts.. IHS jim

Fantastic.

[Snow Patrol]

Originally Posted by Snow Patrol

No, I would like you to show me what I've done that has been unkind to you. The reason I would like to know is because unfortunately when someone starts making gross generalizations, they tend to let their hatred overwhelm them and they start making irrational comments. This is one of those times I'm afraid. I make a great effort to be considerate and polite on this forum and so I would like you to provide evidence of me being unkind to you.

"Please don't get me started on the things you've done, mostly from comments made here."

Neverending, please don't back away from providing evidence of this. In your haste you made a claim that I've been unkind to you by statements that I have made. First off, I've rarely interacted with you. When I have, like I do with others, I strive to remain polite and considerate. So, when you respond to me that I've made unkind statements to you I believe that your hostility towards LDS has influenced you to respond this way. And if you are capable of responding to me this way about this topic when you haven't shown that I've mistreated you in any way, then we have to wonder about your claims that EVERY SINGLE LDS person has been rude to you. I fear that your hatred of all things LDS has severly clouded your perception of reality when it pertains to interactions with LDS people. Do I deny that there are rude LDS people out there, absolutely not. I, myself, have been treated the way you have mentioned. However, to say that all LDS are that way simple comes across as a gross generalization.

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Snow Patrol

"Please don't get me started on the things you've done, mostly from comments made here."

Neverending, please don't back away from providing evidence of this. In your haste you made a claim that I've been unkind to you by statements that I have made. First off, I've rarely interacted with you. When I have, like I do with others, I strive to remain polite and considerate. So, when you respond to me that I've made unkind statements to you I believe that your hostility towards LDS has influenced you to respond this way. And if you are capable of responding to me this way about this topic when you haven't shown that I've mistreated you in any way, then we have to wonder about your claims that EVERY SINGLE LDS person has been rude to you. I fear that your hatred of all things LDS has severly clouded your perception of reality when it pertains to interactions with LDS people. Do I deny that there are rude LDS people out there, absolutely not. I, myself, have been treated the way you have mentioned. However, to say that all LDS are that way simple comes across as a gross generalization.

You and I have often disagreed (every time).. But I have never thought of you as being inconsiderate or discourteous. Neverending just finished up with some heated words with sin (sir).. Please go on and dismiss these statements.. Sin can be very discourteous. When asked to please use either my name I gave to be known by on the forum or even by the name jim, he has decided that I don't deserve such courtesy and has invented names I find objectionable to use for me and will not change his tactics. A small thing, yes, but it does show a underlying bitterness for me that I don't believe should exist in civil discussion. Because of that and other non answer to questions or even one word of support for the LDS church or word showing the failing of my faith he has shown he has one reason to be here and that is to be a tare among the wheat.. IHS jim

[Sir]

Originally Posted by James Banta

You and I have often disagreed (every time).. But I have never thought of you as being inconsiderate or discourteous. Neverending just finished up with some heated words with sin (sir).. Please go on and dismiss these statements.. Sin can be very discourteous. When asked to please use either my name I gave to be known by on the forum or even by the name jim, he has decided that I don't deserve such courtesy and has invented names I find objectionable to use for me and will not change his tactics. A small thing, yes, but it does show a underlying bitterness for me that I don't believe should exist in civil discussion. Because of that and other non answer to questions or even one word of support for the LDS church or word showing the failing of my faith he has shown he has one reason to be here and that is to be a tare among the wheat.. IHS jim

Another long-winded whining episode about me. How.....adult.