Thinking of Joining the Mormons? Here's Why Mormons Leave the LDS!

[Sir]

[QUOTE=James Banta;149969]

Originally Posted by Sir

http://www.theleafchronicle.com/view...tion-Sango-UMC

Yes I read that.. It has been debunked by Snoops.. Can you show a minister by the name of Jeremiah Steepek (or a similar variant of that name) found in any church, large or small. Snoops couldn't.. Snoops couldn't find one person in that area or any other are in the nation that witnessed these events? What happened to the members and visitors of a church with 10,000 people in attendance? Sorry but that story is a myth, there is no evidence that it ever happened..



Really what is so hard about checking with Snoops? Is you want to know if a story is an urban legend or a real event you can verify it there.. This one is proven to be just that an Urban Legend. The story of the Pastor of the Sango United Methodist Church is another story. He lived as a homeless man and cleaned up as he gave the Church a sermon.. He never tried to pawn himself off to them as anything other than their new Pastor.. Did you read the whole story?

This isn't what the Bishop in TAYLORSVILLE Utah did at all.. He disguises himself as homeless man to teach lesson to his new Ward.. The pastor of the Methodist church in Sango never tried to trick anyone.. The Bishop of the TAYLORSVILLE ward only used trickery.. He didn't feel the rejection that the homeless feel as they live in our cities. He only saw the rejection of his own people.. People actually asking Him to leave.. Most ignoring him completely. Only a few wanting to reach out and help him. This is not the story of the Good Samaritan being lived out in the lives of the LDS at all this is the story of the Levite and the Priest that p***ed the injured man by..



Since you changed the story from one exactly like what Bishop Musselman did in the person of a Jeremiah Steepek who was said to be a pastor of a church of some 10,000 members to one of a small Methodist church. I had the right to find out more about it before being condemned by you or any one else.. Now that I have I see what Pastor Lyle did it is clear that the lesson learned there were his lessons given to him by God. They were not the lessons taught to his church. He then shared with the church what God had taught him.. No deception, no hiding, no lies. If you want to look at the face of a Hypocrite start with the mirror. What I have said in this thread is 100% factual..

Your personal ******ination attempts have again failed.. IHS jim

You still claim the link I provided is about the Jeremiah guy.

Nope.

My link was to the other story that you then discussed.

So I am still right. You claimed my link was debunked by Snopes, but my link wasn't debunked at all as you then discussed it.

That's why I don't take you serious at all. All bluster. And lots of whining about being told you are wrong, even when I have to prove once again that you were wrong.

[Sir]

Originally Posted by neverending

And you continue to judge my husband every time you mention his infidelity! What business is it of yours? This is an incident that happened over 14 years ago.

It's my business when someone starts to attack me as not having God, believing a false Jesus, and telling me that complimenting someone on their attire even if I think it's ugly is the same sin as committing adultery. I use it for perspective, not to judge.

It is in the past but you are obsessed with it.....maybe you want all the juicy details since we know Mormons are sexually repressed individuals. If that were not so, we wouldn't keep hearing of another Boy Scout leader being arrested for molesting young boys or school teachers both male and female having sex with their students.

This is exactly my point!!! 1) you always resort to making a point by adding the most far-fetched and ridiculous attacks. 2) You claim LDS people are sexually repressed, and yet I have a perfectly normal and happy sex life, but yet your husband, as a non-Mormon "Christian", must have not been as fortunate since it led him to stray.

See? That's why I bring it up. It provides so many examples of how screwed up your arguments and attacks are toward the LDS people

[Ma'am]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

So? I exit the church every Sunday--it's kind of necessary if I want to get home!

Exiting a building is a far cry from exiting the church. The church is the body of Christ, made up of all true believers, everywhere. If you exit the church, you have left the body of Christ Jesus and are no longer His child.

[James Banta]

[QUOTE=Sir;149975]

Originally Posted by James Banta

You still claim the link I provided is about the Jeremiah guy.

Nope.

My link was to the other story that you then discussed.

So I am still right. You claimed my link was debunked by Snopes, but my link wasn't debunked at all as you then discussed it.

That's why I don't take you serious at all. All bluster. And lots of whining about being told you are wrong, even when I have to prove once again that you were wrong.

You didn't provide any information as to what story you were speaking. You hide what you were talking about in the context of a conversation of the myth of an a christian pastor that did the same thing your LDS bishop actually did. I ***umed that you were on the same subject as all the other LDS here who clamped on to that Urban Myth to try to prove that this idea first came from a Christian minister.. They have pointed to the story of one Jeremiah Steepek in reference to a pastor presenting himself as a homeless man. I have shown that this story is false. That it never happened.. After I showed that you turned and found another story online that was similar to that story but different enough exclude it form comparison to your Taylorville bishop's story.

Remember the LDS bishop did what he did to teach his Ward comp***ion. The Pastor received a commandment from God to live as a homeless man. Not just appear to be a homeless man.. He was being taught the lesson of comp***ion not his church.. All the church got was a report on what God had taught him.. Completely different is it's purpose, it's scope, and it's target.. This was commanded to be done by direct revelation given to this pastor, something the LDS says the Christian church denies. The pastor lived as a homeless man for four days on the streets not just a few hours in a nice warm safe Ward house as the LDS bishop did.. While his Ward received a lesson in comp***ion He only learned how to be a fraud to accomplish his desires to teach them..

The pastor didn't try to fool his church but as soon as he could he revealed that he was their pastor and not a homeless man.. He changed as soon as his family brought him some fresh clothing.. Yes He showed his church what he had been doing and why he did it but he didn't dress homeless to fool them. He dressed in his own cloths, he just had no way of cleaning up for the time he was commanded to live among the homeless, so he was dirty. It is interesting that instead of being ignored by the members of His church he was offered help by most everyone that saw him there waiting to enter the church. No one asked him to leave. Money was offered as well as a chance to enter the church get warm and cleaned up.. It is true that the parishioners could have recognized him since he wasn't trying to hide his ident ity. But because money was offered not all of then saw their pastor in his lets say "more natural" appearance. IHS jim

There is m***ive differences between the reason the Pastor did this and HUGE difference in how the church responded to him.. You are so off base in your complaint all you have proved is that mormonism is anti James 2 and that the Christians from that Methodist church were showing their faith by their works.. Twice your mormon teaching crashes in this one story.. First that Christian churches deny modern revelation, and then that only the LDS will live the life of a Christian, being obedient to the teaching of Jesus and His apostle as to caring for the poor. Thank you for showing that Christian are walking the walk of their faith while the LDS for a large part are showing that they have no faith do to their lack of works. IHS jim

[Sir]

Originally Posted by James Banta

You didn't provide any information as to what story you were speaking.

Didn't need to. I did specify it was the Methodist pastor, though. And most of the readers here read CARM too where I was already discussing is there.

You hide what you were talking about in the context of a conversation of the myth of an a christian pastor that did the same thing your LDS bishop actually did.

Nothing was hidden. You are just blind and obviously not very bright.

I ***umed that you were on the same subject as all the other LDS here who clamped on to that Urban Myth to try to prove that this idea first came from a Christian minister..

As your wife said here recently, "don't sit there and ***ume anything for that makes an *** out of U and Me"

They have pointed to the story of one Jeremiah Steepek in reference to a pastor presenting himself as a homeless man.

Show us. Don't just tell us. Give me a post or a link where LDS have done this?

I have shown that this story is false. That it never happened..

Maybe THAT story. But nobody was talking about THAT story.

After I showed that you turned and found another story online that was similar to that story but different enough exclude it form comparison to your Taylorville bishop's story.

Buwahaha......you are so prideful that you cannot accept you were wrong. I was talking about the Methodist pastor since 11/30. Here is my post at CARM that proves it: http://forums.carm.org/vbb/showthrea...=1#post5023027

So I linked to the same story for you yesterday.

But you go ahead and believe that I only found that story AFTER you claimed to have corrected me. Pride is a very hard thing to overcome.

[James Banta]

[nrajeffreturns;149957]We all believe in it, as far as I know. Can you name 10 who don't?

I have discussed this with only three of you.. I don't go around telling everyone I meet about my sin.. But those that know about it, the three of you here on WM, want to brand me with a scarlet letter for all time.. You Sir, and Julie.. As far as I know you are the only three mormons that know about it.. And you don't believe that repentance of that terrible sin is possible, at least not for me..

What some of us don't like, is antis who are hypocrites. If one of them attacks us for some supposed failures of some of our members once long ago, then maybe it's the anti who doesn't believe in forgiveness.

We believe in forgiveness to anyone that will confess their sins and take them to Jesus. I have don e this with mine and yet I am still held up as a sinner in the minds of many LDS here.. When a sin is continued you will not forgive it but here you are demanding that I (we) do forgive a sin that continues.. Is it not held and sustained in your standard works that all other churches are wrong? That our creeds are an abomination in God's sight? That our teachers are all corrupt? That we only draw near to God with their lips, but their hearts are far from Him? That we teach as our doctrines the commandments of men? That we have a form of godliness, but deny God's power?

Tell you what you drop your attacks against us and we will only point out scriptural differences between mormonism and the Church.. Deal?

Luke 11:4 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

4 ‘And forgive us our sins,
For we ourselves also forgive everyone who is indebted to us.
And lead us not into temptation.’”

I won't hold even those attacks against you personally.. I will hold them against the organization and the person that told the world that Jesus, the God who the Church worships as God. said these terrible things, as guilty of hate, until the day they are removed from the LDS scripture and the hearts of the LDS people.. That seems to be more than fair.. IHS

[neverending]

Originally Posted by Sir

It's my business when someone starts to attack me as not having God, believing a false Jesus, and telling me that complimenting someone on their attire even if I think it's ugly is the same sin as committing adultery. I use it for perspective, not to judge.



This is exactly my point!!! 1) you always resort to making a point by adding the most far-fetched and ridiculous attacks. 2) You claim LDS people are sexually repressed, and yet I have a perfectly normal and happy sex life, but yet your husband, as a non-Mormon "Christian", must have not been as fortunate since it led him to stray.

See? That's why I bring it up. It provides so many examples of how screwed up your arguments and attacks are toward the LDS people

NO! It's not your business but only is showing every member here what a cruel man you are. You take what we say as an attack, and I am sorry that you find it that way. What we've been trying to do for such a long time is show you that the religion you've been raised in has been preaching lies. You believe in a God that was not always God, that he was once a man just as you are a man, is that not true? There is nothing Biblical to defend that idea. You believe a Jesus Christ who was not always God (whom the Bible has always called God) you believe he was a created being, is that not true? I say LDS are sexually repressed only by the many news reports we hear weekly. What else could it be? Yes, the LDS Church teaches good values and they work hard at having strong family ties but somewhere along the line, a ball was dropped. LDS are not perfect people even though some might think they are but you too commit sins. Jesus said that to look at a woman with lust in your heart is no different then actually having sex with that woman. He was referring to our thoughts which are evil and that is sin. So even our thoughts get us into trouble with God. You realize God knows your thoughts, He sees the things you do. There is nothing you can keep from God. Now, James will continue to be here trying to show all the LDS that what has been taught is not Biblical and he is concerned for your eternal salvation. James and I don't wish for anyone to have to stand before God and be judged. God loves you......who else would have given up their life for you or me? He stands at the door and knocks, won't you open that door and let him in? "Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me." (Rev. 3:20) Sir, when I kneel before God each night, you are in my prayers along with my brother (he's an atheist) and my in-laws who remain steeped in Mormonism along with several friends. It is so important to me that they will be with God when their lives come to a close.

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Snow Patrol

Maybe then one of us has a misunderstanding of a definition of a word or phrase. Complete rejection to you means that vast majority of something? So if I was to say that you completely reject the teachings of Mormonism, then I could say that there are some things that you do absolutely agree with. Complete rejection to me means that I reject 100% of something.

Jesus was so completely rejected by the Jews that Pilot bowed to public pressure and had Jesus crucified.. Did all of them call for the death of the Lord on the cross. No! but it was an opinion held by so many that His rejection almost unanimous.. It was so complete that it couldn't be ignored.. If you can't understand it that way try this.. The puzzle was so complete that it clearly showed the pristine scene of the mountains.. Neither statement calls that it was 100% complete..

I have completely rejected the anti biblical teaching of mormonism. That would mean that I have SO completely rejected the teaching held by the LDS church that I can't accept it as being the only true church.. That would mean that I believe with them that Jesus was born in Bethlehem lived a sinless life and suffered for the sins of the whole world.. What I can't accept is that Jesus is a creation of God the same as all the rest of us. That God a tangible man had sexually relations with Mary his mother to produce a physical body for his spirit to dwell in to accomplish Him mission..There is a huge difference between so complete and Complete.. IHS jim

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Sir

Didn't need to. I did specify it was the Methodist pastor, though. And most of the readers here read CARM too where I was already discussing is there.


Buwahaha......you are so prideful that you cannot accept you were wrong. I was talking about the Methodist pastor since 11/30. Here is my post at CARM that proves it: http://forums.carm.org/vbb/showthrea...=1#post5023027

So I linked to the same story for you yesterday.

But you go ahead and believe that I only found that story AFTER you claimed to have corrected me. Pride is a very hard thing to overcome.

To make this short.. I admitted I was mistaken about your reference. I had already admitted that. I explained it clearly when I did see how the reference that I was discussing was not the one you were speaking to.. You somehow see the story about Pastor Lyle as being the same thing your LDS Bishop did in his Ward.. It was totally different as I have explained which apparently you can't contend against..

I am NOT a member of CARM so your references there are meaningless to me.. You found the story on the net and thought it was a great way to support the LDS Bishop's deception in posing as a homeless man.. The facts are he never lived the homeless life style and had little idea what it is really like.. Pastor Lyle on the other hand was commanded by God to live as one of them so He could gain the level of comp***ion God wanted him to gain.. Totally different, so different that there is no comparison.. IHS jim

[Snow Patrol]

Originally Posted by James Banta

I have discussed this with only three of you.. I don't go around telling everyone I meet about my sin.. But those that know about it, the three of you here on WM, want to brand me with a scarlet letter for all time.. You Sir, and Julie.. As far as I know you are the only three mormons that know about it.. And you don't believe that repentance of that terrible sin is possible, at least not for me..

Uh, I've known about it for years.

[Snow Patrol]

Originally Posted by James Banta

Jesus was so completely rejected by the Jews that Pilot bowed to public pressure and had Jesus crucified.. Did all of them call for the death of the Lord on the cross. No! but it was an opinion held by so many that His rejection almost unanimous.. It was so complete that it couldn't be ignored.. If you can't understand it that way try this.. The puzzle was so complete that it clearly showed the pristine scene of the mountains.. Neither statement calls that it was 100% complete..

I have completely rejected the anti biblical teaching of mormonism. That would mean that I have SO completely rejected the teaching held by the LDS church that I can't accept it as being the only true church.. That would mean that I believe with them that Jesus was born in Bethlehem lived a sinless life and suffered for the sins of the whole world.. What I can't accept is that Jesus is a creation of God the same as all the rest of us. That God a tangible man had sexually relations with Mary his mother to produce a physical body for his spirit to dwell in to accomplish Him mission..There is a huge difference between so complete and Complete.. IHS jim

Well then you will have to forgive me for not accepting either "completely rejected" or "so completely rejected" in this scenario. No where in the article did I read a percentage of people rejected him and asked him to leave. I read that his counselor offered to have him come inside. I read where people offered to feed him. I read where kids ran home and got him food. I read where people gave him close to $20. What I can't comprehend is how you came away with complete rejection of this "homeless" man.

We have a mentally ill women, don't know if she is homeless or not, who comes to our building every once in a while. She is welcomed in in whatever manner of dress she happens to be in at the time. She always has her mug of some kind of drink as well as her teddy bear. All of the kids know her and talk to her. Someone from the congregation always sits with her. I've never seen one person escort her out, talk negatively to her, or been anything but polite.

Now, based on this experience shall I act like you and your wife and say that all LDS wards are this welcoming? No, because I am a realist and know that there are definitely places that are not this kind. I just find it interesting that you can find one or two instances of something and so easily project it onto the group as a whole. I'm fearful that your hatred of all things LDS warps your view of things. An example is your wife claiming that not one LDS person has ever been nice to her until I asked her to show where I had been mean to her. I think that your penchant for over-generalizing things is something you could definitely work on.

[RealFakeHair]

Originally Posted by Snow Patrol

Well then you will have to forgive me for not accepting either "completely rejected" or "so completely rejected" in this scenario. No where in the article did I read a percentage of people rejected him and asked him to leave. I read that his counselor offered to have him come inside. I read where people offered to feed him. I read where kids ran home and got him food. I read where people gave him close to $20. What I can't comprehend is how you came away with complete rejection of this "homeless" man.

We have a mentally ill women, don't know if she is homeless or not, who comes to our building every once in a while. She is welcomed in in whatever manner of dress she happens to be in at the time. She always has her mug of some kind of drink as well as her teddy bear. All of the kids know her and talk to her. Someone from the congregation always sits with her. I've never seen one person escort her out, talk negatively to her, or been anything but polite.

Now, based on this experience shall I act like you and your wife and say that all LDS wards are this welcoming? No, because I am a realist and know that there are definitely places that are not this kind. I just find it interesting that you can find one or two instances of something and so easily project it onto the group as a whole. I'm fearful that your hatred of all things LDS warps your view of things. An example is your wife claiming that not one LDS person has ever been nice to her until I asked her to show where I had been mean to her. I think that your penchant for over-generalizing things is something you could definitely work on.

Remember there are nice LDSinc. persons, and not so nice, but that is in every walk of life.
I myself believe more each day in the( Ayn Rand philosophy). To each to his own, and to those with out, are to be left out!

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by James Banta

But those that know about it, the three of you here on WM, want to brand me with a scarlet letter for all time.. You Sir, and Julie..

I think you are mistaken. Speaking for myself, I have no recollection of ever wanting to brand you with a scarlet letter for all time.

As far as I know you are the only three mormons that know about it.. And you don't believe that repentance of that terrible sin is possible, at least not for me..

That is not true. I DO believe that repentance is possible, for you as much as for any of us.

We believe in forgiveness to anyone that will confess their sins and take them to Jesus. I have don e this with mine and yet I am still held up as a sinner in the minds of many LDS here..

What you need to do is follow Jesus' commandment that goes "Treat others the way you would want them to treat you." If you want others to not hold you up as a sinner, then the ball is in your court. You need to stop holding LDS people as sinners, and that includes the church leaders in your old ward, as well as Joseph Smith. If you want to be treated with respect and without accusations of sin you have committed, then you need to treat us that way.

Tell you what you drop your attacks against us and we will only point out scriptural differences between mormonism and the Church.. Deal?

You need to forgive Joseph Smith for the things you feel he said about your church. Did your church even exist in his lifetime? You need to stop making threads attacking members of the LDS church. When you accuse us of sins, you have no right to expect that we will refrain from accusing you of being guilty of sins.

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by neverending

What we've been trying to do for such a long time is show you that the religion you've been raised in has been preaching lies.

But you don't consider that to be an attack? Well, then, what WE have been doing is showing you that the religion YOU are in has been preaching lies. And that isn't an attack on your church, according to your reasoning.

[neverending]

Jeff,
I am not upset at all with your words. Jesus said, "Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword" (Matt. 10:34). In other words, he came knowing that his gospel would cause problems for many but his gospel is the only thing we have to cling to. We were also told we would be hated and persecuted too. I count it all joy. God knows each one of our hearts. He knows who will and won't accept his plan of salvation and I am not referring to resurrection but eternal life living with God. When I began studying Mormonism and came to the conclusion that so many doctrines that I had questioned were not following the Bible, I became very upset. When I discovered the misleading doctrines and made up my mind to leave Mormonism, please don't think it was an easy thing for me to do, it wasn't; it was the hardest thing I ever did. The relationship with my parents and friends was forever changed.

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by neverending

Jeff, I am not upset at all with your words.

That is good if true. I was just trying to show you that if the things you say about our church don't count as attacks, then the things Joseph Smith claimed Jesus told him about other churches can't count as an attack either, and therefore neither side is doing any attacking, I guess.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by James Banta

I have discussed this with only three of you.. I don't go around telling everyone I meet about my sin.. But those that know about it, the three of you here on WM, want to brand me with a scarlet letter for all time.. You Sir, and Julie.. As far as I know you are the only three mormons that know about it.. And you don't believe that repentance of that terrible sin is possible, at least not for me..

James,

As far as I can tell, one of the things that gets you in trouble is that you struggle to not hold a grudge against people (me, sir, etc.) or things (the church) because you imagine we believe something we don't.

When we discussed your adultery, this was my exact comment:

"Does this lessen my opinion of James--no. Do I feel he can repent? Yes. Do I believe he has fully repented? I believe that he believes he has---but I also know that it takes an awful lot of humility to sit before one who has authority from God to judge and to confess your sins and allow them to determine (with revelation) the next steps you must take to satisfy every level of repentence.

Do I believe in the atonement of Jesus Christ to wash away such a sin---absolutely! Do I believe James is going to hell. No.

You see, I have far less judgement of James than he has of me. Call me evil if you want, but I am just learning a little deeper what is happening with James. Truly, he has my comp***ion."

I even left in my spelling errors.

Truly, to come back in after so much time and find your griping about this, my only thought was--the gentleman doth protest too much.

And really James---how many times did we discuss this? Once, twice? I don't believe this has been much of a topic.

[Apologette]

Originally Posted by neverending

NO! It's not your business but only is showing every member here what a cruel man you are. You take what we say as an attack, and I am sorry that you find it that way. What we've been trying to do for such a long time is show you that the religion you've been raised in has been preaching lies. You believe in a God that was not always God, that he was once a man just as you are a man, is that not true? There is nothing Biblical to defend that idea. You believe a Jesus Christ who was not always God (whom the Bible has always called God) you believe he was a created being, is that not true? I say LDS are sexually repressed only by the many news reports we hear weekly. What else could it be? Yes, the LDS Church teaches good values and they work hard at having strong family ties but somewhere along the line, a ball was dropped. LDS are not perfect people even though some might think they are but you too commit sins. Jesus said that to look at a woman with lust in your heart is no different then actually having sex with that woman. He was referring to our thoughts which are evil and that is sin. So even our thoughts get us into trouble with God. You realize God knows your thoughts, He sees the things you do. There is nothing you can keep from God. Now, James will continue to be here trying to show all the LDS that what has been taught is not Biblical and he is concerned for your eternal salvation. James and I don't wish for anyone to have to stand before God and be judged. God loves you......who else would have given up their life for you or me? He stands at the door and knocks, won't you open that door and let him in? "Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me." (Rev. 3:20) Sir, when I kneel before God each night, you are in my prayers along with my brother (he's an atheist) and my in-laws who remain steeped in Mormonism along with several friends. It is so important to me that they will be with God when their lives come to a close.

Amen! You are absolutely correct!

[neverending]

Julie,
No, you've not been here for awhile nor have I. What I can tell you is this...for the past week, Sir has done nothing but make cruel attacks on James (my husband) throwing what happened 14 years ago into his face. I've asked why he would want to cause our family bad feelings and is it right to interfere in someone's family? Is this not something that effects me? If I found it in my heart to forgive, then that is good enough and all that happened is in the past. None of us are perfect, we ALL SIN! ALL of us say or do things we know are wrong. Even if it is a small white lie, that is still a sin. There are no degrees of sinning, for God sees sin as only sin and since He is perfect he can not accept it. As believers, we have been told that if we repent of our sins, God is faithful and just to forgive us. 1 John 1:9, "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." God has forgiven James and since his sin effected only myself and has nothing to do with any of you, then this line of talk needs to end! It is cruel and hateful.

[Sir]

Originally Posted by neverending

Julie,
No, you've not been here for awhile nor have I. What I can tell you is this...for the past week, Sir has done nothing but make cruel attacks on James (my husband) throwing what happened 14 years ago into his face. I've asked why he would want to cause our family bad feelings and is it right to interfere in someone's family? Is this not something that effects me? If I found it in my heart to forgive, then that is good enough and all that happened is in the past. None of us are perfect, we ALL SIN! ALL of us say or do things we know are wrong. Even if it is a small white lie, that is still a sin. There are no degrees of sinning, for God sees sin as only sin and since He is perfect he can not accept it. As believers, we have been told that if we repent of our sins, God is faithful and just to forgive us. 1 John 1:9, "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." God has forgiven James and since his sin effected only myself and has nothing to do with any of you, then this line of talk needs to end! It is cruel and hateful.

The problem is that you and James continues to harp on how the LDS are sinners, that we are all unforgiven, etc. As long as you continue to point out the sins of others, I will remind you of your sins. Seems fair.

Plus, when James preaches that telling your wife you like her dress when you really don't is the same gravity of sin as sleeping with another woman other than your wife, I have to point that out as being quite ludicrous. I mean, let's be real here. If you found out James complimented you on your hair but really hated it, and then he went out and committed adultery, would you be able to forgive him equally? Would one of those sins hurt more then the other? Would the consequences be the same?

[James Banta]

[Sir;150019]The problem is that you and James continues to harp on how the LDS are sinners, that we are all unforgiven, etc. As long as you continue to point out the sins of others, I will remind you of your sins. Seems fair.

At last a statement that has relevance to the subject of the channel.. Does not mormonism teach that there is a step by step procedure for repentance?

1. Recognize we have done wrong.
2. Covenant with the Lord that we will never repeat the sin we have committed and are repenting of. “By this ye may know if a man repenteth of his sins—behold, he will confess them and forsake them.” (D&C 58:43.)
3. Recommit ourselves to living a better life in all phases of the gospel.
4. Make rest itution for the wrongs we have committed by
a.Repenting in prayer to the Lord.
b.Confessing to our bishop, an ordained common judge in Israel and the presiding high priest in our ward.
c.Apologizing to those we have offended.

5. The depth of our repentance must be as deep as the sin we have committed. There is no easy way. It hurts, but it also cleanses.
6. Time is the next element of repentance and rest itution
a.Time to prove to ourselves, to our Lord, to our fellowmen that we have committed ourselves to a new way of life.
b.Time to study the scriptures and dedicate our lives to the commandments we learn we must live to be happy and have joy.

7. Complete forgiveness of ourselves and forgiveness without any feelings of retribution toward those who have offended us.
8. Finally, the greatest of all blessings: the forgiveness of the Lord. We no longer look back with depression and hurt, but forward to the future with hope and joy and love for God, self, and all mankind. (Robert D. Hales, First Quorum of the Seventy, The Lord Offers Everyone a Way Back from Sin, conference address, October 1976)

So tell me if any of these steps are ignored can a person be seen to be forgiven by the God of LDS church? No? It is clear than when Smith lied saying that he only had one wife he had no recognition that he had done anything wrong.. As he seduced married women he again didn't see his actions as wrong.. He failed to repent according to mormonism's own rules.. Because Smith was an unrepentant sinner he has opened himself up to criticism. Mine is much different even by the list of mormonism's requirements I can show that I have repented.. I did see what I had done was wrong. I committed to God to never repeat this sin, and recommitted myself to follow Jesus more closely. I tried hard to reestablish trust with my wife and ***ured her that my behavior had changed. That was the only way I could make res***ution. I cried out to God for His grace and discussed this sin with my Pastor. I again lived in the word of God allowing His words of correction fill my heart. I blamed no one else for my failing taking full responsibility for my sin.. I took the pain I suffered in a my illnesses, and my car accident as the judgments of God..

So I fulfill every step that your church teaches a man should go through even the time to prove that I was committed to his repentance.. And you compare me with Smith who didn't even get past the very first step? He never repented of his sins.. He deserves then to be harped on. It isn't me that didn't understand the depth and seriousness of my sin.. That all belongs to Smith who didn't see that the seduction of a married woman as a major sin.. So does it still seem fair to remind someone that has repented of his sin even when you praise the man that never bothered to see his sin as even being wrong? If it does God help anyone you know that ever slides into any sin.. You won't forgive even when a person does everything they can to repent.. But then again you allow those that are unrepentant to be held as a great man of God.. Go figure..

Plus, when James preaches that telling your wife you like her dress when you really don't is the same gravity of sin as sleeping with another woman other than your wife, I have to point that out as being quite ludicrous. I mean, let's be real here. If you found out James complimented you on your hair but really hated it, and then he went out and committed adultery, would you be able to forgive him equally? Would one of those sins hurt more then the other? Would the consequences be the same?

It isn't what another person can forgive you of that is the point here.. Yes as mortal men we see divisions in the seriousness of sin.. But the Bible, the rule for Christian life and practice of righteousness tells us that "If we keep the whole law and only offend in one point we are guilty of it all" (James 2:10).. You can say that such a doctrine is a lie, that it is "ludicrous" but it is a point God gave us through the Apostle James and is part of the same context that teaches us that Faith without works is dead.. But since you don't like that part of the teaching of God we receive in that p***age you call it ridiculous and dismiss it as foolish and those that believe all that God has preserved for us in His word as a fool.. You have no room to condemn or teach others that God's word he has given to us is anything but truth.. To teach otherwise is a sin.. But that is your problem to rectify with your God.. IHS jim

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Sir

The problem is that you and James continues to harp on how the LDS are sinners, that we are all unforgiven, etc. As long as you continue to point out the sins of others, I will remind you of your sins. Seems fair.

The problem is the difference is that those who follow after false gods will not be forgiven. You seem to miss that point.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Billyray

The problem is the difference is that those who follow after false gods will not be forgiven. You seem to miss that point.

And so, as I said---your judgment toward us is much harsher than ours toward you.

[neverending]

Originally Posted by Sir

The problem is that you and James continues to harp on how the LDS are sinners, that we are all unforgiven, etc. As long as you continue to point out the sins of others, I will remind you of your sins. Seems fair.

Plus, when James preaches that telling your wife you like her dress when you really don't is the same gravity of sin as sleeping with another woman other than your wife, I have to point that out as being quite ludicrous. I mean, let's be real here. If you found out James complimented you on your hair but really hated it, and then he went out and committed adultery, would you be able to forgive him equally? Would one of those sins hurt more then the other? Would the consequences be the same?

Sir,
Please don't lump me in with things James has said to you. I will say that yes, LDS are sinners, we are all sinners, and that is why Jesus Christ came to earth, to redeem us from our sins, his whole reason for hanging on the cross. I have never said you are not forgiven. If you have never repented of a sin then, yes, you would then be an unrepentant sinner. That I would agree to. When have I ever said I was perfect? I am right here confessing to this forum that I am a sinner! I am not ashamed to admit that. Why are you afraid to admit it? It is the first step to receiving Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior. And again, there aren't degrees of sinning when you look at sin from God's eyes. He is perfect and can never accept any sin, no matter what it is. A white lie, is still a lie and makes that person a liar even if you did it to not hurt someone's feelings. There are ways to be tactful isn't there? I would never want James to not be honest with me. And I can honestly say that I have asked him many times if he liked what I was wearing or how I had done my hair an he tells me truthfully if he likes it or not. That is what I expect of him. If I look horrible, I don't want to go out in public. Would you want your dear wife to go out in public looking bad because you were afraid to be honest with her? Isn't that deceptive? It is in my book.

[Apologette]

Originally Posted by neverending

Let's not forget that there has never been any evidence of "Reformed Egyptian" anywhere. The Book of Abraham has already been proven false by one of the LDS' own members who is an expert in Egyptology. And when one compares the original BoM with todays copy, there are over 3,000 changes. The language in many areas had to be changed because it was full of improper grammar. My thought has always been, if God was helping J. Smith with the translation of the gold plates, why so many areas of poor grammar? God who know ALL things certainly would know the English language. Now one can see where the statement, "talking through your hat" came from.

Nobody in this century would get away with claiming they were "translating" plates by the method of "rocks in a hat," and that the engravings were written in "Reformed Egyptian." Those that made such bogus claims might be categorized as mentally deranged.