Will Any Mormons Have the Integrity To Renounce These Racial Slurs?

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Apologette

Oh, really. How about citing for us some Scripture for that claim? What kind of Bible are you reading? The Joseph Smith Distortion?

In the Old Testament. Sorry, I thought this was common knowledge.


Jos 13:14 Only unto the tribe of Levi he gave none inheritance; the sacrifices of the LORD God of Israel made by fire are their inheritance, as he said unto them.

Here is one non-Mormon, "Christian" source I found on the subject:

"The point has always been that God selects who may offer sacrifices to Him. He appointed the descendants of Aaron to be His priests, thus their authority came from God. God told others to offer sacrifices, so they too operated under the order of God. Saul, however, decided on his own to make an offering to God and as a result was condemned for it. "And Samuel said to Saul, "You have done foolishly. You have not kept the commandment of the LORD your God, which He commanded you. For now the LORD would have established your kingdom over Israel forever" (I Samuel 13:13; see I Samuel 10:8 for the original command)."

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by RealFakeHair

No, the South did not exclude Blacks from the christian faith. If that were true there would not be so many black baptist churches here in the south.

Do you even know why the Southern Baptist Convention was created? Look it up and then come back with at least a bit of a knowledge base.

Even during the height of Slavery most white christians did not look upon a black christian as less of a christian.

Riiight: They said "We don't believe you're human, and we believe the Bible teaches that it's okay for us to own you as our property, but hey, you're no less Christian than we are!"

LOL

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

In the Old Testament. Sorry, I thought this was common knowledge.

Knowledge is sometimes an uncommon thing when anti-LDS are concerned. After all, if they were more knowledgeable about the LDS, they'd be less prejudiced against them.

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by James Banta

Blacks are a race.. To exclude someone from God's blessing is religious racism.

Doesn't your church exclude HALF its members from a chance at clergyhood because of the way they were born? Religious sexism, I think it's called. You are attacking from a position of weakness.

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

Doesn't your church exclude HALF its members from a chance at clergyhood because of the way they were born? Religious sexism, I think it's called. You are attacking from a position of weakness.

Sexism? If it is such then it is by God's command. Wouldn't it be hard for a woman to be the husband of one wife, with children.. That is who the Bible teaches as those who can be considered for church leadership. Again I will tell you that Christian's believe God. His instructions are clear. they teach that the man is the head of the woman as Jesus is the head of the Church.

Tell me isn't LDS church leadership all male? Only in the instruction of other women, and children do women ***ume any leadership roles.. If you believe the Christian Church practices sexism, you would have to see to your church's practices before you point you finger at the Christian Church. But on the point of church leadership, I personally don't believe Mormonism has a biblical problem. It isn't until they try to mix their priesthood into church leadership that the LDS church violates the teaching of God recorded in the Bible.. IHS. jim

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

What about when God excludes just about the whole planet based on lineage? Such as when only the tribe of Levi could do certain things in the gospel.

God never set Levi up to do anything in the Gospel. The Gospel is what God, in Jesus did for us. You are again adding to the Bible teachings that just don't exist in it's contents or it's meaning. For a woman who is studying the orignial language you don't seem to even know that the Gospel isn't even mentioned until the it was found in the New Testament.. Are you getting your Hebrew confused with Greek? IHS. jim

[theway]

Originally Posted by Apologette

Mormon "prophet," Brigham Young, stated:

"You see some cl***es of the human family that are black, uncouth, uncomely, disagreeable and low in their habits, wild and seemingly deprived of nearly all the blessings of the intelligence that is generally bestowed upon mankind. . . . Cain slew his brother. Cain might have been killed, and that would put a termination to that line of human beings. This was not to be, and the Lord put a mark upon him, which was the flat nose and black skin. Trace mankind down to after the flood, and then another cursed is pronounced upon the same race--that they should be the "servants of servants;" and they will be until that curse is removed; and the Abolitionists cannot help it, nor in the least alter that decree (Journal of Discourses, 7:290; emphasis added)

AND


"Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African race? If the white man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot. This will always be." (Journal of Discourses, 10:110, Brigham Young)

(Question: Who does the execution?)


HOW ABOUT THIS STATEMENT BY THE MORMON FIRST PRESIDENCY?

July 17th, 1947, statement:

"From the days of the Prophet Joseph Smith even until now, it is has been the doctrine of the Church, never questioned by any of the Church leaders, that the Negroes are not enti tled to the full blessings of the Gospel.
"Furthermore, your ideas, as we understand them, appear to contemplate the intermarriage of the Negro and White races, a concept which has heretofore been most repugnant to most normal-minded people from the ancient partiarchs till now. God's rule for Israel, His Chosen People, has been endogamous. Modern Israel has been similarly directed.

"We are not unmindful of the fact that there is a growing tendency, particularly among some educators, as it manifests itself in this are, toward the breaking down of race barriers in the matter of intermarriage between whites and blacks, but it does not have the sanction of the Church and is contrary to Church doctrine.

"Faithfully yours,

[signed] George Albert Smith J. Reuben Clark, Jr. David O. McKay
The First Presidency"

So, which brave Mormons here are going to renounce these statements as racial slurs? Have any subsequent "prophets" renounced these statements? Are these statements made by the power of God, or the promptings of the Devil?

Ah yes... When all else fails, try Race Baiting.

[theway]

Originally Posted by RealFakeHair

I didn' see the 19th centry white and delightsome in his quote. The fact is when Joseph Smith jr. Book of Mormon god came to his imaginary mind, Joseph didn't have the forethought to think the world might change it's opinion of Black or color people. Just one more nail in the coffin of the lie mormonism is all about.

Maybe that's because there is no 19th century "white and delightsome" Joseph Smith himself changed it to "pure and delightsome" because he felt that better explained the meaning of the verse.

[RealFakeHair]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Why was only one man allowed to hold the priesthood and banned for every other black man until 1978?

Who knows, maybe he saw the protental of the black man becoming white and delighsome sooner then other black folk.

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by theway

Maybe that's because there is no 19th century "white and delightsome" Joseph Smith himself changed it to "pure and delightsome" because he felt that better explained the meaning of the verse.

Oh so that is why my Old Triple still said White.. Because the later leaders of the LDS church figured Smith was wrong in changing the God given wording found in the first publication of the BofM and for that matter the revised 1837 edition, all the way up to 1966.. But It didn't matter how God gave it to him, Smith knew best.. IHS jim

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by James Banta

Sexism? If it is such then it is by God's command.

That is an acceptable answer to the charges of sexism in your church, Jim....if you are willing to be a non-hypocrite, and admit that "Racism? If it is such then it is by God's command" is an acceptable answer to the charges of racism in the LDS church.

So what do you say, Jim? It's All or Nothing time. You must decide whether to admit that your church is unacceptably sexist or, or to accept the LDS answer that is similar to yours.

[theway]

Originally Posted by James Banta

Oh so that is why my Old Triple still said White.. Because the later leaders of the LDS church figured Smith was wrong in changing the God given wording found in the first publication of the BofM and for that matter the revised 1837 edition, all the way up to 1966.. But It didn't matter how God gave it to him, Smith knew best.. IHS jim

It was actually changed in the 1840 version. The problem is that there were multiple versions already printed.
Since more copies were made of the Euruopean version already at that time, most versions after 1840 followed the Europian version until the time the Church decided to include all the changes that Joseph Smith made.

This is why I find it funny that AntiMormons claim there were a set amount of changes to the Book of Mormon because it would all depend of which version you were comparing which version against.

[James Banta]

[theway;150336]It was actually changed in the 1840 version. The problem is that there were multiple versions already printed.
Since more copies were made of the Euruopean version already at that time, most versions after 1840 followed the Europian version until the time the Church decided to include all the changes that Joseph Smith made.

1840? Really? But the LDS church still printed the original text until when again? I didn't know that Smith still had the plates in 1840.. Does the LDS church teach that the BofM is the translation of an ancient record of God's word, or an modern inspired novel that Joseph Smith wrote? Without the original to check how would he know for sure the changes he made were what the original was really teaching? If he didn't need the plates to bring forth the BofM why would God preserve them for Him.. He could have produced it like Edgar Cayce did in giving his reading In a pretend trance.. At least that way he could have made the corrections in another trance.. It would have had the authority of having contact with the original source, and the excuse that there were moments when the inspiration ebbed and other times when it flowed.. The way Smith did it makes it look like God made errors in the translation..

This is why I find it funny that AntiMormons claim there were a set amount of changes to the Book of Mormon because it would all depend of which version you were comparing which version against.

Which is why I always say more than 3,000 and not a exact number.. I don't worry too much. I am sure there will be many more before the LDS church is done fine turning that novel.. It still could use a lot of editing.. IHS jim

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by theway

Ah yes... When all else fails, try Race Baiting.

It isn't our fault that men that were the spokesman for God to their church and the world retained such a huge level of racism in their hearts.. Remember that the first Gentile convert to the Church was a black man. And that man was so loved by God that Phillip was supernaturally placed in His path.. IHS jim

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

That is an acceptable answer to the charges of sexism in your church, Jim....if you are willing to be a non-hypocrite, and admit that "Racism? If it is such then it is by God's command" is an acceptable answer to the charges of racism in the LDS church.

So what do you say, Jim? It's All or Nothing time. You must decide whether to admit that your church is unacceptably sexist or, or to accept the LDS answer that is similar to yours.

My church is a Conservative Baptist church on the East side of Sandy City, Utah.. We have never included any racial comments in our charter.. We are also a Bible believing Church.. When we are taught that a bishop must be the husband of one wife we understand that God requires a man to fill that position.. There is no teaching in all the Bible that teaches that a black man is less of a man than any other man.. That he is a born servant, and will be a servant of white and delightsum people. Oh I know you will turn to Gen 9:25-26.. But look close the p***age. It is about Ham's son not a whole race.. Smith said "I can say, the curse is not yet taken off from the sons of Canaan, neither will be until it is affected by as great a power as caused it to come" (History of the Church, vol. 2, p. 438). He actual believed that the curse pronounced by Noah was on a race and not on just one person..

But can we say that mormonism hasn't held racist teaching, NO! Mormonism holds that God gave racist commands.. Instead those teaching proceeded from the mind of a racist man? The BofA confirms that in Abraham 1:27.. And we know that since the papyrus has been rediscovered and have been judged by experts to be a pagan funeral text and not the words and teachings of Abraham, the ban spoken of there is a product of Smith's own deceitful heart.. This means that racism is another brick in the foundation of the mormon church. Something not present in the Bible or the charter of a modern Christian church..

If you want to call the commandments of God that the man is the head of the woman as Jesus is the head of His Church sexist do it.. That is a biblical teaching and I and every other Christian will support it.. Looks like it is ALL for the Church and NOTHING for mormonism.. IHS jim

[RealFakeHair]

Originally Posted by James Banta

My church is a Conservative Baptist church on the East side of Sandy City, Utah.. We have never included any racial comments in our charter.. We are also a Bible believing Church.. When we are taught that a bishop must be the husband of one wife we understand that God requires a man to fill that position.. There is no teaching in all the Bible that teaches that a black man is less of a man than any other man.. That he is a born servant, and will be a servant of white and delightsum people. Oh I know you will turn to Gen 9:25-26.. But look close the p***age. It is about Ham's son not a whole race.. Smith said "I can say, the curse is not yet taken off from the sons of Canaan, neither will be until it is affected by as great a power as caused it to come" (History of the Church, vol. 2, p. 438). He actual believed that the curse pronounced by Noah was on a race and not on just one person..

But can we say that mormonism hasn't held racist teaching, NO! Mormonism holds that God gave racist commands.. Instead those teaching proceeded from the mind of a racist man? The BofA confirms that in Abraham 1:27.. And we know that since the papyrus has been rediscovered and have been judged by experts to be a pagan funeral text and not the words and teachings of Abraham, the ban spoken of there is a product of Smith's own deceitful heart.. This means that racism is another brick in the foundation of the mormon church. Something not present in the Bible or the charter of a modern Christian church..

If you want to call the commandments of God that the man is the head of the woman as Jesus is the head of His Church sexist do it.. That is a biblical teaching and I and every other Christian will support it.. Looks like it is ALL for the Church and NOTHING for mormonism.. IHS jim

The Old Testament does teach a non-Jew is worth less than a jew and an old non-jew is worth even less, so I guess that makes me worthless.

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

Knowledge is sometimes an uncommon thing when anti-LDS are concerned. After all, if they were more knowledgeable about the LDS, they'd be less prejudiced against them.

I was less prejudiced against mormonism before I started to study it deeply.. Now I know that they teach multiple gods when God through His word teaches us that He alone is God and He doesn't even know of another.. That prophets spoke to the people for God up to when Jesus took their place giving us full access to God without a prophet to be an intermediary. Knowledge can set a person free from the Laws and ordinances that have no power to save us, but only the power to enslave.. Jesus came and set us free. No longer can any man put the shackles of the Law on believers.. Tell me what prejudicial uneducated I am seeing in everything I have said about mormonism.. Did Smith or did he not teach that there are three Gods, or they are plural? Did he not teach that Jesus became a God when the Bible teaches that God has been God from everlasting to everlasting? Mormonism teaches that all or spirit existed in a preexistant world while the Bible teaches that God formed our spirits with in us..

I learned all this KNOWLEDGE coming out of mormonism not while I was in it.. It would seem that ignor ance is the glue that holds men in mormonism not the elixir of those that point out the Biblical deficits of LDS teachings.. IHS jim

[RealFakeHair]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

Do you even know why the Southern Baptist Convention was created? Look it up and then come back with at least a bit of a knowledge base.


Riiight: They said "We don't believe you're human, and we believe the Bible teaches that it's okay for us to own you as our property, but hey, you're no less Christian than we are!"

LOL

Try reading what I said and get back to me.

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by RealFakeHair

The Old Testament does teach a non-Jew is worth less than a jew and an old non-jew is worth even less, so I guess that makes me worthless.

And me and every non semantic mormon that has ever lived including Joseph Smith and Brigham Young.. It would seem that since semantic people are usually Caucasian that race had little to do with that pronouncement.. It was more a family bias since God told Abraham that through his seed all the world would be blessed.. This attack of mormonism on the Church calling her racist is far more than the pot calling the kettle black.. It swings all the way to unbelievable.. IHS jim

[RealFakeHair]

Originally Posted by James Banta

And me and every non semantic mormon that has ever lived including Joseph Smith and Brigham Young.. It would seem that since semantic people are usually Caucasian that race had little to do with that pronouncement.. It was more a family bias since God told Abraham that through his seed all the world would be blessed.. This attack of mormonism on the Church calling her racist is far more than the pot calling the kettle black.. It swings all the way to unbelievable.. IHS jim

God has His chosen people, but they do not choose Him today. Kinda weird ain't it?

[James Banta]

[QUOTE=nrajeffreturns;150152]

Originally Posted by Apologette

"The story of the woman at the well...."

Does that ring a bell?

No, Jerusalem is the place God chose to put His name.. Not Samaria.. If Jesus said they didn't know what they worshiped because of that how much more are the LDS lost in believing that there are three Gods, and that a man may become a God..

There was no racial slurs in the words of Jesus, a correction of religions error yes, but Samaritans were of the same blood as the Jews.. They were brothers, no racial lines separated them.. You are grabbing at straws.. IHS jim

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by RealFakeHair

No, the South did not exclude Blacks from the christian faith. If that were true there would not be so many black baptist churches here in the south. Even during the height of Slavery most white christians did not look upon a black christian as less of a christian.

I know that the Blacks of that era had their own churches and even though I didn't care for their order of worship they are Christians. Of that I have no doubt.. These Christian were however banned from worshiping in white churches.. That was our lose.. Black Baptist are very exciting in their worship.. IHS jim

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by RealFakeHair

God has His chosen people, but they do not choose Him today. Kinda weird ain't it?

Yes but the promise yo Abraham was still fulfilled.. God doesn't say something and them go back on it like the mormon god does.. Remember he gives command and revokes commands as seems good to him.. But then he is all powerful like the real God is.. The mormon god had to surrender before the Missouri State Militia. Our God calls worlds into existence.. There is a HUGE difference in power there.. IHS jim

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by James Banta

My church is a Conservative Baptist church on the East side of Sandy City, Utah.. We have never included any racial comments in our charter..

But you admit that your church DENIES equal rights to fully HALF its members--the female ones. They are "unworthy" or "haven't earned" the right to clergy hood, and you excuse it because you believe that God wants it that way, correct? You claim that it's in your scriptures, correct?

And you don't see anything wrong with that policy. Correct?

There is no teaching in all the Bible that teaches that a black man is less of a man than any other man..

But apparently there ARE teachings in your church that a WOMAN IS less of a CHRISTIAN than any man is.

When will your god remove this curse from the female members?

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by James Banta

Remember that the first Gentile convert to the Church was a black man.

Hey, Jim, are you up for a bet?

I am willing to bet you $5 that the first black convert to the LDS church joined before the first black convert to YOUR church joined.

Whattaya say?