Satan and the Mormon Temple "Secret" Rites! Don't Get Involved!

[Apologette]

Mormons keep their temple rites secret. And for good cause. If people knew what went on in the secret Mormon temples they'd never be talked into converting to Mormonism. Satan plays a very prominent, if not the most prominent role in these secret rites. Most people, even if t hey aren't Christians, have enough common sense to stay away from anyting related to Satanism.

One person who went through the Mormon temple put it this way: "If the rites were really God's truth, then wouldn't Satan be trying to talk everyone out of them? If I pray to Satan to ask him what I should do, would he answer: "Be a good Mormon or I'll get you?"

The temple endowment made me wonder, whose side is Satan actually on? Apparently he's on the Mormon Church's side - that is, if you take the temple ceremony seriously.

So just follow Satan's advice if you want to be a good Mormon. That's what I learned in the temple." (http://www.i4m.com/think/temples/temple_experience.htm , my underlining)

Why would a temple-going Mormon come away with this impression? Because Satan plays a very significant role in the secret, Masonic-based, temple ceremonies of Mormons:

For instance, check out this portion of the Mormon rite:


THE APRON

[Lucifer returns as Adam is eating the fruit.]

LUCIFER: That is right.

EVE: [To Adam.] It is better for us to p*** through sorrow that we may know the good from the evil. [To Lucifer.] I know thee now. Thou art Lucifer, he who was cast out of Father's presence for rebellion.

LUCIFER: Yes. You are beginning to see already.

ADAM: What is that apron you have on?

LUCIFER: It is an emblem of my power and priesthoods.

ADAM: Priesthoods?

LUCIFER: Yes, priesthoods.

ADAM: I am looking for Father to come down to give us further instructions.

LUCIFER: Oh, you are looking for Father to come down, are you?

[Elohim and Jehovah are heard speaking outside the Garden Room.]

ELOHIM: Jehovah, we promised Adam that we would visit him and give him further instructions. Come, let us go down.

JEHOVAH: We will go down, Elohim.

ADAM: I hear their voices; they are coming.

LUCIFER: See--you are naked. Take some fig leaves and make you aprons. Father will see your nakedness. Quick! Hide!

[Lucifer withdraws from view.]

ADAM: Brethren and sisters, put on your aprons.

[He waits until they have done so.]

[To Eve.] Come, let us hide.

[Adam and Eve withdraw from view.]

Notice how Lucifer (Satan) declares he has priesthoods! Who gave him those priesthoods but his "heavenly father," the Mormon deity? Satan is his (heavenly father's) second spirit baby. So one might ask, where do Mormon priesthood claims come from? Furthermore, who tells the Mormon temple participants to wear aprons? Satan
again!

Later on, Satan actually threatens the Mormon deity:

LUCIFER IS EXPELLED FROM THE GARDEN

ELOHIM: Lucifer!

[Lucifer returns.]

ELOHIM: What hast thou been doing here?

LUCIFER: I have been doing that which has been done on other worlds.

ELOHIM: What is that?

LUCIFER: I have been giving some of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil to them.

ELOHIM: Lucifer, because thou hast done this, thou shalt be cursed above all the beasts of the field. Upon thy belly thou shalt go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life.

LUCIFER: If thou cursest me for doing the same thing which has been done on other worlds, I will take the spirits that follow me, and they shall possess the bodies thou createst for Adam and Eve!

ELOHIM: I will place enmity between thee and the seed of the woman. Thou mayest have power to bruise his heal, but he shall have power to crush thy head.

LUCIFER: Then with that enmity I will take the treasures of the earth, and with gold and silver I will buy up armies and navies, popes and priests, and reign with blood and horror on the earth! (note: rite changed to read: "false priests who oppress and tyrants who destroy.")

ELOHIM: Depart!

What a perversion - the Bible no place records this threat, and Satan is seen as an equal of the Mormon god, "Elohim."

Further on in this parody of creation, the Mormon god doesn't answer Adam and Eve's prayers. Who does? Satan:

ADAM: Brethren and sisters, this represents the telestial kingdom, or the world in which we now live. Adam, on finding himself in the lone and dreary world, built an altar and offered prayer, and these are the words he uttered:

Oh God, hear the words of my mouth.
Oh God, hear the words of my mouth.
Oh God, hear the words of my mouth.

(Note: these are the same words that Mormon participants say in their temple prayer circle! So what happens? Lucifer answers Adam's prayers. Is this who answers Mormon prayers as well?)

LUCIFER: I hear you. What is it you want?

ADAM: Who are you?

LUCIFER: I am the god of this world.

ADAM: You, the god of this world?

LUCIFER: Yes. What do you want?

ADAM: I am looking for messengers.

LUCIFER: Oh, you want someone to preach to you. You want religion, do you? There will be many willing to preach to you the philosophies of men mingled with scripture.

Then after Satan talks about mingling scriptures with philosophies (as Mormons here do) he goes on to boast about his power:

LUCIFER: Now is the great day of my power. I reign from the rivers to the ends of the earth. There is none who dares to molest or make afraid.

Note: Mormons are wary of water. They believe it is the domain of Satan. The FLDS are as well.

And further on, Satan threatens the Mormon initiates that unless they keep their "temple" convenats, they'll be in his power:

LUCIFER: Ah! You have looked over my kingdom and my greatness and glory. Now you want to take possession of the whole of it.

[He indicates the initiates.]

I have a word to say concerning these people. If they do not walk up to every covenant they make at these altars in this temple this day, they will be in my power!



Folks it is Satan who wants people to be Mormons - and he threatens them if they don't comply with their temple promises! How bizarre is that? Furthermore, according to the Tanners,:


Another important change has been made in the sign for the Second Token of the Melchizedek Priesthood. In the 1984 version of the endowment ceremony, as printed in Appendix A of Evolution of the Mormon Temple Ceremony, page 94, we find this:

"The sign is made by raising both hands high above the head (Officiator demonstrates.), and while lowering the hands repeating aloud the words:

Pay Lay Ale
Pay Lay Ale
Pay Lay Ale"

As early as 1969 we pointed out a problem with this: "...there seems to have been a change made in this part of the ceremony, for the Salt Lake Tribune, Feb. 12, 1906, gave the words as 'Pale, Ale, Ale,' and Temple Mormonism used the words 'Pale, Hale, Hale.' " (The Mormon Kingdom, vol. 1, p. 138)

However this may be, in another portion of the temple ceremony, it is explained that "Pay Lay Ale" means "Oh God, hear the words of my mouth!" (see this important source for info on Mormon temple changes: http://www.utlm.org/newsletters/no76.htm)

So, the initiates pray Adam and Eve's prayer -the very one that Satan answered. And remember, according to the temple rites, he is the real god of this world (they apparently don't understand metaphor).

Folks, Satan plays the central role in Mormon temple rites - don't get involved with the Satanic! You'll find yourself serving a cult that will demand 10 percent of your income for the rest of your life! And demand that you say an oath declaring all that you have or will have is dedicated to "the kingdom of God," which in Mormonese is The Mormon Church!

[BigJulie]

Oh, so sad Apollogette.

As having gone to the temple many times, what I have learned is that the temple covenants are a gift that if lived improve your life. I know this with a surety. Those who try to discredit it have not experienced the joy and peace ***ociated with it.

God is a ritualistic God. He always has been. You can see it with the sacrifice of animals in the beginning. You can see it with baptisms and Sacrament today. I believe He does this because we are not only spiritual beings, but physical beings. By attaching a physical ritual to a spiritual covenant, it helps us connect our physical bodies to our spiritual desires.

Going to the temple may, at first, seem different--because we are not used to being taught in such a deep ritualistic way. But I have learned and discovered for myself that it is one of the greatest gifts given to us by the Savior. Anyone who goes to the temple faithfully and lives by the covenants made therein will have a better life, will experience more joy, have more peace and be closer to God. I know this because I have lived it.

[neverending]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Oh, so sad Apollogette.

As having gone to the temple many times, what I have learned is that the temple covenants are a gift that if lived improve your life. I know this with a surety. Those who try to discredit it have not experienced the joy and peace ***ociated with it.

God is a ritualistic God. He always has been. You can see it with the sacrifice of animals in the beginning. You can see it with baptisms and Sacrament today. I believe He does this because we are not only spiritual beings, but physical beings. By attaching a physical ritual to a spiritual covenant, it helps us connect our physical bodies to our spiritual desires.

Going to the temple may, at first, seem different--because we are not used to being taught in such a deep ritualistic way. But I have learned and discovered for myself that it is one of the greatest gifts given to us by the Savior. Anyone who goes to the temple faithfully and lives by the covenants made therein will have a better life, will experience more joy, have more peace and be closer to God. I know this because I have lived it.

Julie,
May I ask what year it was when you first went to the temple?

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Oh, so sad Apollogette.

As having gone to the temple many times, what I have learned is that the temple covenants are a gift that if lived improve your life. I know this with a surety. Those who try to discredit it have not experienced the joy and peace ***ociated with it.

God is a ritualistic God. He always has been. You can see it with the sacrifice of animals in the beginning. You can see it with baptisms and Sacrament today. I believe He does this because we are not only spiritual beings, but physical beings. By attaching a physical ritual to a spiritual covenant, it helps us connect our physical bodies to our spiritual desires.

Going to the temple may, at first, seem different--because we are not used to being taught in such a deep ritualistic way. But I have learned and discovered for myself that it is one of the greatest gifts given to us by the Savior. Anyone who goes to the temple faithfully and lives by the covenants made therein will have a better life, will experience more joy, have more peace and be closer to God. I know this because I have lived it.

No one, NOT ONE PERSON has ever kept a convent they have made with God.. I remind you of the covenants made in the sacrament prayers. You make a promise to keep his commandments which he hath given them.. Do you do that? Are you even aware of all the commandments given just in the New Testament. There are nearly 1,200 of them.. Do you go into the world and teach all people? Do you baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. And teach them to observe all things whatsoever God has commanded? Do you ever get angry over nothing? Have you ever taken an oath? Have you given to those that always seem to be asking to borrow from you even though they never return what you loan to them? Are you sure you are keeping your covenants, you have made with God to always keep His commandments.

I have look deeply into myself and find that I am one of the most disobedient people to whom God ever offered His grace. Yet He tells me through the Bible that He became sin for me and gave me His righteousness in exchange.. My covenant with Him it to believe, love, and trust.. His, is to make me His child and give me eternal life.. Yes I get the better deal. That is why He is worthy of my love and praise.. I once was lost but now He has found me. I was blind but now I can see Him.. Ritual and religiosity can never replace the peace and security I have being His child.. IHS jim

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Oh, so sad Apollogette.

As having gone to the temple many times, what I have learned is that the temple covenants are a gift that if lived improve your life. I know this with a surety. Those who try to discredit it have not experienced the joy and peace ***ociated with it.

God is a ritualistic God. He always has been. You can see it with the sacrifice of animals in the beginning. You can see it with baptisms and Sacrament today. I believe He does this because we are not only spiritual beings, but physical beings. By attaching a physical ritual to a spiritual covenant, it helps us connect our physical bodies to our spiritual desires.

Going to the temple may, at first, seem different--because we are not used to being taught in such a deep ritualistic way. But I have learned and discovered for myself that it is one of the greatest gifts given to us by the Savior. Anyone who goes to the temple faithfully and lives by the covenants made therein will have a better life, will experience more joy, have more peace and be closer to God. I know this because I have lived it.

I agree with your well-made points, Julie.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by neverending

Julie,
May I ask what year it was when you first went to the temple?

Many years ago. I am old. And if you ask me about what has occurred over the years, I will ***ure you that my testimony of the temple has grown stronger with each year I get older and my study of the scriptures has grown more in depth and my knowledge of God greater.

And then when I have studied Hebrew, my testimony of the temple grew stronger still.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by James Banta

No one, NOT ONE PERSON has ever kept a convent they have made with God.. I remind you of the covenants made in the sacrament prayers. You make a promise to keep his commandments which he hath given them.. Do you do that? Are you even aware of all the commandments given just in the New Testament. There are nearly 1,200 of them.. Do you go into the world and teach all people? Do you baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. And teach them to observe all things whatsoever God has commanded? Do you ever get angry over nothing? Have you ever taken an oath? Have you given to those that always seem to be asking to borrow from you even though they never return what you loan to them? Are you sure you are keeping your covenants, you have made with God to always keep His commandments.

I have look deeply into myself and find that I am one of the most disobedient people to whom God ever offered His grace. Yet He tells me through the Bible that He became sin for me and gave me His righteousness in exchange.. My covenant with Him it to believe, love, and trust.. His, is to make me His child and give me eternal life.. Yes I get the better deal. That is why He is worthy of my love and praise.. I once was lost but now He has found me. I was blind but now I can see Him.. Ritual and religiosity can never replace the peace and security I have being His child.. IHS jim

One person (also God) has kept a covenant with God the Father and that is Jesus Christ. He has covenanted to return His people to the fold. Yes, James---Christ has promised the repentant sinner cleansing. This is a process. We have already discussed it many times.

[Apologette]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Oh, so sad Apollogette.

As having gone to the temple many times, what I have learned is that the temple covenants are a gift that if lived improve your life. I know this with a surety. Those who try to discredit it have not experienced the joy and peace ***ociated with it.

God is a ritualistic God. He always has been. You can see it with the sacrifice of animals in the beginning. You can see it with baptisms and Sacrament today. I believe He does this because we are not only spiritual beings, but physical beings. By attaching a physical ritual to a spiritual covenant, it helps us connect our physical bodies to our spiritual desires.

Going to the temple may, at first, seem different--because we are not used to being taught in such a deep ritualistic way. But I have learned and discovered for myself that it is one of the greatest gifts given to us by the Savior. Anyone who goes to the temple faithfully and lives by the covenants made therein will have a better life, will experience more joy, have more peace and be closer to God. I know this because I have lived it.

So you have no problem with Satan's large part in your "temple" rites? Too bad, Julie, too bad.

[Apologette]

Originally Posted by James Banta

No one, NOT ONE PERSON has ever kept a convent they have made with God.. I remind you of the covenants made in the sacrament prayers. You make a promise to keep his commandments which he hath given them.. Do you do that? Are you even aware of all the commandments given just in the New Testament. There are nearly 1,200 of them.. Do you go into the world and teach all people? Do you baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. And teach them to observe all things whatsoever God has commanded? Do you ever get angry over nothing? Have you ever taken an oath? Have you given to those that always seem to be asking to borrow from you even though they never return what you loan to them? Are you sure you are keeping your covenants, you have made with God to always keep His commandments.

I have look deeply into myself and find that I am one of the most disobedient people to whom God ever offered His grace. Yet He tells me through the Bible that He became sin for me and gave me His righteousness in exchange.. My covenant with Him it to believe, love, and trust.. His, is to make me His child and give me eternal life.. Yes I get the better deal. That is why He is worthy of my love and praise.. I once was lost but now He has found me. I was blind but now I can see Him.. Ritual and religiosity can never replace the peace and security I have being His child.. IHS jim

How often have you ever seen a Mormon admit they are a sinner? I never have. There is a certain spiritual arrogance which is the fruit of Mormonism. Pride!

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Apologette

So you have no problem with Satan's large part in your "temple" rites? Too bad, Julie, too bad.

Yes, unfortunately--Satan has always played a large part in this world. He was there in the Garden of Eden (which God obviously allowed) and is here trying to tempt people on earth. What we learn is how to live in a such a way that he has no power over us and we are freed through Christ.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Apologette

How often have you ever seen a Mormon admit they are a sinner? I never have. There is a certain spiritual arrogance which is the fruit of Mormonism. Pride!

You are kidding, right? I think I have acknowledged many times that the only perfect being ever to walk this earth is Jesus Christ. In fact, I think we often discuss even the prophets as being human and therefore flawed. Luckily, the gospel is perfect in spite.

[neverending]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Oh, so sad Apollogette.

As having gone to the temple many times, what I have learned is that the temple covenants are a gift that if lived improve your life. I know this with a surety. Those who try to discredit it have not experienced the joy and peace ***ociated with it.

God is a ritualistic God. He always has been. You can see it with the sacrifice of animals in the beginning. You can see it with baptisms and Sacrament today. I believe He does this because we are not only spiritual beings, but physical beings. By attaching a physical ritual to a spiritual covenant, it helps us connect our physical bodies to our spiritual desires.

Going to the temple may, at first, seem different--because we are not used to being taught in such a deep ritualistic way. But I have learned and discovered for myself that it is one of the greatest gifts given to us by the Savior. Anyone who goes to the temple faithfully and lives by the covenants made therein will have a better life, will experience more joy, have more peace and be closer to God. I know this because I have lived it.

Julie....as one who went through the temple to be married, it was the most disgusting and vile experience of my life. That is why I've asked what year did you first go to the temple? I know there have been major changes to the ceremony starting in 1990, when all the blood oaths and penalties were removed along with the part where Lucifer appears and speaks about ministers and how he would pay them well. This was my wedding day and I had to spend 3 hours first getting felt up by 3 old women and then the 2 hour session doing all sorts of vile things. How was this a beautiful experience? Explain to me how any of those weird covenants, "if lived improve your life." IF? So you're saying that there are worthy members of the LDS Church who have temple recommends that don't live those covenants. Is that not being hypocritical and should those members have their recommends taken from them? BTW, Jesus Christ, NEVER taught anything about marriage in the temple. There was ONE temple, and it was used ONLY for animal sacrifices, nothing more. Can you not see how you've been lead down the primrose path? Have you not seen how this secret ceremony goes against everything God taught? Even your BoM taught in Ether 8:18-19, "and it came to p*** that they formed a secret combination, even as they of old; which combination is most abominable and wicked above all, in the sight of God; for the Lord worketh not in secret combinations, neither doth he will that men should shed blood, but in all things hath forbidden it, from the beginning of man." How then can you go against what is written within your BoM, a book that is highly revered?

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

One person (also God) has kept a covenant with God the Father and that is Jesus Christ. He has covenanted to return His people to the fold. Yes, James---Christ has promised the repentant sinner cleansing. This is a process. We have already discussed it many times.

Because Jesus is God I exclude Him from the ranks of sinful mankind.. He didn't stop being God when He entered mortality. He had nothing to learn in so doing.. He came here to rescue us. That was the ONLY reason He became mortal. That couldn't have been done if He sinned.. If you agree with that you are still ahead of most Smithites.. IHS jim

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Apologette

How often have you ever seen a Mormon admit they are a sinner? I never have. There is a certain spiritual arrogance which is the fruit of Mormonism. Pride!

I have seen it often enough.. I see them believing that they can measure sin in degrees.. Little ones are less serious.. I ***ume they believe taking their sacrament handles all of those. The bigger ones will either drop them out of the celestial kingdom or cause them to start up their 8 point repentance process.. By what they (Sir that is) says about me and my repentance, I ***ume that there are some sins they still believe a man must shed his own blood to gain forgiveness. And of course those are not committed by any LDS. In their doctrine of sin they refuse to believe God's word.. The Holy Spirit made it clear through the Apostle James..

James 2:10
For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

Are we taught in the p***age that the sin had to be one that the LDS see as serious? Not at all. It is clear that if we commit ANY sin we have become guilty of offending the whole law..

Back before Joseph Smith went totally crazy in teaching that people could become Gods to their own spirit children and organize worlds for them to live on he taught a lot of orthodox doctrine.. One orthodox point is found in 2 Nephi 9:34. It holds that God sees lying to be as serious as adultery, murder, or any other sin on their serious list..

2 Nephi 9:34
Wo unto the liar, for he shall be thrust down to hell.

It is important to know that I only have to murder one person to be a murderer, I only have to commit adultery one time to be an adulterer. And I only need to tell one lie to be a liar.. Lying is then as serious in the sight of God as any other sin that can be committed.. When they start to understand that maybe their humility will increase.. IHS jim

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Many years ago. I am old. And if you ask me about what has occurred over the years, I will ***ure you that my testimony of the temple has grown stronger with each year I get older and my study of the scriptures has grown more in depth and my knowledge of God greater.

And then when I have studied Hebrew, my testimony of the temple grew stronger still.

Can you show me in the Bible where the NT members built and utilized a temple like the LDS do today?

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Can you show me in the Bible where the NT members built and utilized a temple like the LDS do today?

She can't do it.. It just flat isn't there.. IHS jim

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Yes, unfortunately--Satan has always played a large part in this world. He was there in the Garden of Eden (which God obviously allowed) and is here trying to tempt people on earth. What we learn is how to live in a such a way that he has no power over us and we are freed through Christ.

Really Julie when did you accept the Flip Wilson version of the Bible "The devil made me do it"? Most of our sin has nothing to do with the power that Satan holds.. It comes from our own hearts.

Jer 17:9
The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked

Do you see it Julie? The heart lies more than anything, that would include Satan.. Above that it is desperately wicked. It is so wicked that only God can fathom it's depths of evil.. Take responsibility for the sin that in you and stop laying it all on Satan..It is our own hearts of flesh that is at war with the spirit Jesus died to to give to us.. Only in that new creation, the second birth, can the evil that is born in our flesh in the first birth (the natural man) be defeated.. Only God can give us that second birth, and promises to do so to all that believe in Jesus, the Jesus revealed in the Bible not one made up in the HEART of a natural man.. IHS jim

[Apologette]

Originally Posted by James Banta

Really Julie when did you accept the Flip Wilson version of the Bible "The devil made me do it"? Most of our sin has nothing to do with the power that Satan holds.. It comes from our own hearts.

Jer 17:9
The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked

Do you see it Julie? The heart lies more than anything, that would include Satan.. Above that it is desperately wicked. It is so wicked that only God can fathom it's depths of evil.. Take responsibility for the sin that in you and stop laying it all on Satan..It is our own hearts of flesh that is at war with the spirit Jesus died to to give to us.. Only in that new creation, the second birth, can the evil that is born in our flesh in the first birth (the natural man) be defeated.. Only God can give us that second birth, and promises to do so to all that believe in Jesus, the Jesus revealed in the Bible not one made up in the HEART of a natural man.. IHS jim

Which is exactly why the Mormon contention that they have received affirmation of the authenticity of the Book of Mormon by some kind of interior feeling is absolutely bogus! The unregenerate heart can also give people "affirmation" of Krishna as a god, etc.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by James Banta

She can't do it.. It just flat isn't there.. IHS jim

I don't have to do it. What I can show you is that God does build temples for His people and they are a covenant people.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by neverending

Julie....as one who went through the temple to be married, it was the most disgusting and vile experience of my life. That is why I've asked what year did you first go to the temple? I know there have been major changes to the ceremony starting in 1990, when all the blood oaths and penalties were removed along with the part where Lucifer appears and speaks about ministers and how he would pay them well. This was my wedding day and I had to spend 3 hours first getting felt up by 3 old women and then the 2 hour session doing all sorts of vile things. How was this a beautiful experience? Explain to me how any of those weird covenants, "if lived improve your life." IF? So you're saying that there are worthy members of the LDS Church who have temple recommends that don't live those covenants. Is that not being hypocritical and should those members have their recommends taken from them? BTW, Jesus Christ, NEVER taught anything about marriage in the temple. There was ONE temple, and it was used ONLY for animal sacrifices, nothing more. Can you not see how you've been lead down the primrose path? Have you not seen how this secret ceremony goes against everything God taught? Even your BoM taught in Ether 8:18-19, "and it came to p*** that they formed a secret combination, even as they of old; which combination is most abominable and wicked above all, in the sight of God; for the Lord worketh not in secret combinations, neither doth he will that men should shed blood, but in all things hath forbidden it, from the beginning of man." How then can you go against what is written within your BoM, a book that is highly revered?

Interesting that you and I should have such different experiences. "Vile" would never be a word I would use to describe the temple experience. I was sealed in the temple long before 1990.

How have the covenants improved my life? Well, I guess I will give you an example. If I wanted to give my child a great gift, what would it be? I could give them a house or a car, but those things are fleeting and will not necessarily bring them happiness. But what type of gift could I give them that would give them happiness? Let's start with the gift of chas..ti.ty (I separate this word out because WM's website will delete part of it.) Is this a gift that will give them happiness throughout their life? Yes, absolutely. If I could give my child this gift...it would serve them well. They would not know the heartache of abandonment of sleeping with someone uncommitted to them. It would save them from many forms of disease. It would save them from the possibility of an out-of-wedlock birth or the temptation of abortion---all of which brings pain and suffering. Yes, if I could give my child this gift, it would be great indeed. But how could I give such a gift. Well, the first thing I might do to give this gift is to make them promise to me that they will live a chaste life. Second, I would share with them what this promise would bring to their life. But what if I could give them a grand understanding of why they make this promise and what if I could give to them the power to resist the temptation to be unchaste? Well then, I would have given them a great gift indeed. One that would serve their lives and make them happy.

In the temple, the covenants we make bring us happiness. This I know for sure and without a doubt. In the temple, we understand who we are and what we mean to God. We understand the purpose of this life and what the Savior has done for us. Those who live by faithful to their temple covenants will have peace and joy in this life (and I have faith, in the world to come as well.)

Lastly, I know you believe that the temple is something wrong and not part of God's religion....but if I showed you something in the Old Testament that showed outright that Isaiah was aware of the temple covenants and spoke of them, would you, right now, forsake what you are saying against the church and return back to activity?

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Interesting that you and I should have such different experiences. "Vile" would never be a word I would use to describe the temple experience. I was sealed in the temple long before 1990.

How have the covenants improved my life? Well, I guess I will give you an example. If I wanted to give my child a great gift, what would it be? I could give them a house or a car, but those things are fleeting and will not necessarily bring them happiness. But what type of gift could I give them that would give them happiness? Let's start with the gift of chas..ti.ty (I separate this word out because WM's website will delete part of it.) Is this a gift that will give them happiness throughout their life? Yes, absolutely. If I could give my child this gift...it would serve them well. They would not know the heartache of abandonment of sleeping with someone uncommitted to them. It would save them from many forms of disease. It would save them from the possibility of an out-of-wedlock birth or the temptation of abortion---all of which brings pain and suffering. Yes, if I could give my child this gift, it would be great indeed. But how could I give such a gift. Well, the first thing I might do to give this gift is to make them promise to me that they will live a chaste life. Second, I would share with them what this promise would bring to their life. But what if I could give them a grand understanding of why they make this promise and what if I could give to them the power to resist the temptation to be unchaste? Well then, I would have given them a great gift indeed. One that would serve their lives and make them happy.

In the temple, the covenants we make bring us happiness. This I know for sure and without a doubt. In the temple, we understand who we are and what we mean to God. We understand the purpose of this life and what the Savior has done for us. Those who live by faithful to their temple covenants will have peace and joy in this life (and I have faith, in the world to come as well.)

And of course you could never find that God is a lover of chasti ty anywhere else like the say the Bible? You had to go to a place that Jesus taught against to learn that? Remember He said swear not at all? (Matthew 5:34).. And yet that is what you did in the temple, swear oaths.. But you still learned Chat ity in the temple.. Maybe instead of promising to slit your throat or open your bowels you should have read God's word 1 Thessalonians 4:3 ESV "For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you abstain from sexual immorality", Romans 13:13 ESV "Let us walk properly as in the daytime, not in orgies and drunkenness, not in sexual immorality...", and among other references Ephesians 5:3 ESV "But sexual immorality and all impurity or covetousness must not even be named among you...". But you had to run to a building, and swear oaths to find out about chasti ty?

One other point you can teach a person chast ity but you surely can't give it to them.. I admit that immorality contains no joy, and gives no peace, or love.. I hate the day I became so involved and yet praise God for His restorative grace.. The joy of chasti ty is not exclusive to the LDS temple it is found everywhere God has moved in the hearts of men.. The question is why not go to Him directly and see His answers in His word rather than go where you had to take blood oaths.. IHS jim

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by James Banta

And of course you could never find that God is a lover of chasti ty.. You had to go to a place that Jesus taught against to learn that? Remember He said swear to at all? (Matthew 5:34).. And yet that is what you do in the temple swear oaths.. But you still learned Chat ity in the temple.. Maybe instead of promising to slit your throat or open your bowels you should have read God's word 1 Thessalonians 4:3 ESV "For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you abstain from sexual immorality", Romans 13:13 ESV "Let us walk properly as in the daytime, not in orgies and drunkenness, not in sexual immorality...", and among other references Ephesians 5:3 ESV "But sexual immorality and all impurity or covetousness must not even be named among you...". But you had to run to a building, and swear oaths to find out about chasti ty?

One other point you can teach a person chast ity but you surely can't give it to them.. I admit that immorality contains no joy, peace, or love.. I hate the day I became so involved and yet praise God for His restorative grace.. The joy of chasti ty is not exclusive to the LDS temple it is found everywhere God has moved in the hearts of men.. The question is why not go to Him directly and see His answers in His word rather than go where you had to take blood oaths.. IHS jim

I am hoping that neverending will respond to my previous post.

James, let me tell you how I feel about the temple and chast ity and how I see your situation---which is very sad indeed.

What I know of for sure is that if you had continued going faithfully to the temple, you would have never hurt your wife the way you did. Of that, I am positive. Now, I do not bring this up to speak against you, but mainly to point out the protection that the temple offers.

You have said in the past that I don't think you can repent of that sin....that is absolutely NOT true. I believe you can. But let me tell you why I think you haven't.

It is because you continue to teach the false doctrine that the sin of adultery is no different from other sins such as telling a white lie. I absolutely know, without a doubt, that that is false doctrine. There are sins that are more offensive to God then others (even though all sin removes us from being like God). That is why Christ can speak of a "greater ****ation" to the Pharisees. He understood that their sin was more offensive than others.

And let me tell you something else. (This is my own personal opinion). I think it is abusive to those you love to act like your sin of adultery is no different from other sins---it is not--and it is unfair to ask anyone to act like the hurt you caused them is no different than the hurt caused by other smaller sins (such as telling a white lie.) For me, my own discernment tells me that one has repented for a sin when one can recognize with full responsibility and recognition of the hurt they have caused and not brush it off as if it was not different than something of a lesser degree.

So, there you have it. If I was your wife, I would have none of it. I would not accept the false belief that your sin is no different than others. And I would expect you to treat it with the full-weight of understanding and repentance such a sin would warrant and no less.

And for me (because I am Mormon), that would entail going to the bishop, confessing your sin---allowing the full weight of your sin to be decided upon by those in authority by God to judge---to make full amends to all---and then a full return to temple activity. Only when you had recommitted to going to the temple faithfully would I know with ***urance that you have taken seriously your sin and done all you can to never commit it again.

[neverending]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Interesting that you and I should have such different experiences. "Vile" would never be a word I would use to describe the temple experience. I was sealed in the temple long before 1990.

How have the covenants improved my life? Well, I guess I will give you an example. If I wanted to give my child a great gift, what would it be? I could give them a house or a car, but those things are fleeting and will not necessarily bring them happiness. But what type of gift could I give them that would give them happiness? Let's start with the gift of chas..ti.ty (I separate this word out because WM's website will delete part of it.) Is this a gift that will give them happiness throughout their life? Yes, absolutely. If I could give my child this gift...it would serve them well. They would not know the heartache of abandonment of sleeping with someone uncommitted to them. It would save them from many forms of disease. It would save them from the possibility of an out-of-wedlock birth or the temptation of abortion---all of which brings pain and suffering. Yes, if I could give my child this gift, it would be great indeed. But how could I give such a gift. Well, the first thing I might do to give this gift is to make them promise to me that they will live a chaste life. Second, I would share with them what this promise would bring to their life. But what if I could give them a grand understanding of why they make this promise and what if I could give to them the power to resist the temptation to be unchaste? Well then, I would have given them a great gift indeed. One that would serve their lives and make them happy.

In the temple, the covenants we make bring us happiness. This I know for sure and without a doubt. In the temple, we understand who we are and what we mean to God. We understand the purpose of this life and what the Savior has done for us. Those who live by faithful to their temple covenants will have peace and joy in this life (and I have faith, in the world to come as well.)

Lastly, I know you believe that the temple is something wrong and not part of God's religion....but if I showed you something in the Old Testament that showed outright that Isaiah was aware of the temple covenants and spoke of them, would you, right now, forsake what you are saying against the church and return back to activity?

Julie, I appreciate all you've found from attending your temple but yes, it is very interesting that we both experienced different feelings about it. The day I entered the temple to marry James, as I was sitting there going through all the requirements. the one thought kept coming into my head, "why would God want us to do these vile things? This is not right! As I sat there, I then heard a voice which said, "GET UP, LEAVE! You do not belong here!" I heard this voice three times. With each time I heard this voice, it was more insistent til I almost did get up and felt like something was trying to push me to my feet. Now, who do you think was speaking to me? I know it was the Holy Spirit trying to warn me as He had warned me many times before. Julie, to hear you talk, I can clearly see how totally blind you are to things of the spirit. God did NOT ordain this ceremony. You also totally forgot what is written within your BoM about secret combinations.
I would appreciate too if you would be so kind as to share with me what exactly Isaiah said concerning temple covenants for I am not familiar with anything of the kind. Since I know that Isaiah never mentioned covenants I would never return to Mormonism. With all the knowledge I've learned since leaving it in 1980, I know without a doubt that it is a cult and teaches another gospel which we as believers have been warned against. Would you turn from Mormonism if you had an open mind and truly believed in your own scriptures such as what I mentioned about the secret combinations that Ether mentions? Would you turn from Mormonism knowing that the temple ceremony is so similar to what the Masons do in their temples? With Joseph Smith having been a 33 degree Mason, which is the highest level within the Scottish Right, why does the LDS ceremony follow so closely what they do? I think it's more of the lies that Joseph Smith perpetrated on the uneducated people of his day. All the keys, signs and penalties and the 5 points of fellowship are exactly the same!

[neverending]

Julie, since James' sin was against me and has nothing to do with you then it is none of your business. What I have seen from your comment is this, you have kept one important thing out of your personal opinion, and that is God! Since I know to well that the Mormon god is a weak god, having once been a human being, how can he really do much? You certainly don't believe he has always existed as god and that is sad. Going to a Mormon Bishop is ridiculous! I know of none that have any training in emotional issues or marriage counseling. Where do they get off judging anyone? It is not their business either. Any sin is between the sinner and GOD and anyone they may have hurt. Jesus Christ is our go between for us. He approaches God's throne and intercedes for us, the believers; that is all that is necessary. The temple is not going to save you. It is a poor substi tute for God and his love for you. And since James has not committed any other infidelity, I can attest that his sin has been forgiven and he has become a changed man. No one is perfect, no one! There are many LDS who have committed adultery so don't tell me that temple going members never commit sin for that would be a falsehood. And you don't understand either about God for he sees ALL sin as just that, SIN! He can not accept any kind of sin since he is perfect. So don't put differing degrees of sinning into your comment for I do not accept that. A white lie is still a lie which makes one a liar does it not??

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

I am hoping that neverending will respond to my previous post.

James, let me tell you how I feel about the temple and chast ity and how I see your situation---which is very sad indeed.

What I know of for sure is that if you had continued going faithfully to the temple, you would have never hurt your wife the way you did. Of that, I am positive. Now, I do not bring this up to speak against you, but mainly to point out the protection that the temple offers.

You have said in the past that I don't think you can repent of that sin....that is absolutely NOT true. I believe you can. But let me tell you why I think you haven't.

It is because you continue to teach the false doctrine that the sin of adultery is no different from other sins such as telling a white lie. I absolutely know, without a doubt, that that is false doctrine. There are sins that are more offensive to God then others (even though all sin removes us from being like God). That is why Christ can speak of a "greater ****ation" to the Pharisees. He understood that their sin was more offensive than others.

And let me tell you something else. (This is my own personal opinion). I think it is abusive to those you love to act like your sin of adultery is no different from other sins---it is not--and it is unfair to ask anyone to act like the hurt you caused them is no different than the hurt caused by other smaller sins (such as telling a white lie.) For me, my own discernment tells me that one has repented for a sin when one can recognize with full responsibility and recognition of the hurt they have caused and not brush it off as if it was not different than something of a lesser degree.

So, there you have it. If I was your wife, I would have none of it. I would not accept the false belief that your sin is no different than others. And I would expect you to treat it with the full-weight of understanding and repentance such a sin would warrant and no less.

And for me (because I am Mormon), that would entail going to the bishop, confessing your sin---allowing the full weight of your sin to be decided upon by those in authority by God to judge---to make full amends to all---and then a full return to temple activity. Only when you had recommitted to going to the temple faithfully would I know with ***urance that you have taken seriously your sin and done all you can to never commit it again.

Do you know who you left out of your repentance process? JESUS! You did see how I dealt with this sin I am not even sure where I entered it.. I showed the LDS 8 points of repentance and how I have met every step.. NOT ONE DID I NEGLECT.. Only I went a step further.. I confessed this to everyone in my church.. There were a few like you that judged me severely. I was my own harshest judge.. Even my Pastor told me that repentance to God means I had to trust Him to do what He promised to do.. And that as I confessed my sin He was faithful and just to forgive my sin and cleanse me of all unrighteousness (1 John 1:9)..

You are right about believing different that I do about the severity of sin.. I don't believe that adultery is as trivial as lying I believe that lying is as serious as adultery.. Instead of making up my own rules I have believed God.. He is the One through the Apostle James that tells us that if we were to keep His own Law except for one point (He doesn't tell us that this point had to be anything special) we become guilty of all His Law (James 2:10).. Really if you don't want to believe that fine, that is what I expect. It's not hard to believe that a nonbeliever disbelieves the Bible..

It is funny though that this p***age is in the same context that the LDS I meet are are always throwing up as proof for works based salvation.. Yes it's in the Faith without works p***age.. But that part is true BECAUSE YOU AGREE WITH IT.. James 2 10 is false because YOU DISAGREE WITH IT. I believe that yes if a man say He has faith but has no works his faith is dead being alone.. But Julie I also believe God that if we live the whole law and fail in just one thing one time we are then guilty of the whole of God's Law.. Then I believe God in all His words He has preserved for us in His word the Bible.. You don't seem to believe Him at all.

Yes Julie this was a very serious thing I did.. No denying that.. I hurt many people with my actions.. I have confessed to them, to God, and to His Church.. There is nothing I can do to recompense anyone over this.. All I can do is accept the promises of God and go forward.. I spent over a year in absolute despair that I fell so far and so fast. But God used even that to show me my place before Him.

I don't deserve anything, I deserve hell because of my actions but His word, His promises tell me that God has made Him to be sin, He who knew no sin that I could be made the righteousness of God in Him (2 Corinthians 5:21).. He said come let us reason together, though your sins be as scarlet (AND MINE WAS) they will be white as wool (Isaiah 1:18).. I can believe you and fall back into guilty and mistrust of God, or I can rest in Him and trust what He has done for me and what He has promised.. You are a wonderful LDS woman. You love your church and your prophets.. I love God, trusting Him not even a good woman like you could ever replace that.. Membership in a church could never make up for what I did. Julie it was so serious it required the death of Jesus as testified by His blood.. Does that sound like I trivialize my sin? I feel the same way now about anything I do wrong.. And I ask the Holy Spirit to point out my failing now more than ever. I still sin way too much.. I have heard the LDS say oh you can say you believe in Jesus and then go sin all you want.. That is also backward. I believe in Jesus and I sin much more than I want.. IHS jim