Is there any excuse for doing something wrong

[James Banta]

By saying "I was only following orders". Down through history this excuse has been used..

In 1474, in the trial of Peter von Hagenbach by an ad hoc tribunal of the Holy Roman Empire, the first known “international” recognition of commanders’ obligations to act lawfully occurred. Hagenbach offered the defense that he was just following orders, but this defense was rejected and he was convicted of war crimes and beheaded. (An Introduction to the International Criminal Court, William A. Schabas, Cambridge University Press, Third Edition).

On October 8, 1945, Anton Dostler was the first German general to be tried for war crimes by a U.S. military tribunal at the Royal Palace of Caserta in Caserta. He was accused of ordering the execution of 15 captured U.S. soldiers in March 1944. He admitted ordering the execution but said that he could not be held responsible because he was just following orders from his superiors. This defense was rejected, Dostler was found guilty of war crimes. He was sentenced to death and executed by a firing squad on December 1, 1945..

"The fact that a person acted pursuant to order of his Government or of a superior does not relieve him from responsibility under international law, provided a moral choice was in fact possible to him." ( Nuremberg Principle IV)..

Can a person who breaks the moral laws of God and aids the abomination of sodomy be excused by saying "I was only following orders".. Don't bet your eternal destiny on it.. IHS jim

[James Banta]

Isn't this what the county clerks of Utah that are LDS are doing as they issue marriage licenses to same sex coupes? They are doing wrong because, after I they are "only following orders".. No one not their supervisors, not the laws, not the courts can force them to become party to this abomination. They don't have to stay in that position.. There are other ways of making a living.. It may require more work to change their employment but it is done my millions of people every year.. IHS jim

[neverending]

Originally Posted by James Banta

Isn't this what the county clerks of Utah that are LDS are doing as they issue marriage licenses to same sex coupes? They are doing wrong because, after I they are "only following orders".. No one not their supervisors, not the laws, not the courts can force them to become party to this abomination. They don't have to stay in that position.. There are other ways of making a living.. It may require more work to change their employment but it is done my millions of people every year.. IHS jim

I certainly agree. It also brings to mind the holocaust where many German soldiers were ordered to murder innocent Jewish people, babies, children, women, the old and infirm. These men who helped murder 6 million Jews are as guilty as the commanders who gave the order. To sit back and not do anything is just as wrong. So for fear of either losing their own life or here in Utah, fear of losing one's ***, then again, these people are guilty of condoning sin. How do they sleep at night? Once again, evil is being called good.

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by neverending

I certainly agree. It also brings to mind the holocaust where many German soldiers were ordered to murder innocent Jewish people, babies, children, women, the old and infirm. These men who helped murder 6 million Jews are as guilty as the commanders who gave the order. To sit back and not do anything is just as wrong. So for fear of either losing their own life or here in Utah, fear of losing one's ***, then again, these people are guilty of condoning sin. How do they sleep at night? Once again, evil is being called good.

There are those that will say "We never called good. evil".. I will say that going against the word of God is EVIL, no matter what.. And I should know...

Leviticus 18:22
Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

Leviticus 20:13
If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination...

There are others that will complain that this is the Old Testament and Jesus came and did away with that old Law.. I say that he never did away with the Law but fulfilled it instead.. Still there is much that is not completely fulfilled and until ALL is fulfilled the Law is still with us and is still in full force:

Matthew 5:18
For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth p***, one jot or one ***tle shall in no wise p*** from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Yes I know that is still all Old Testament teaching and yes much has changed but has the teaching against ****sexuality? NO! In the New testament ****sexuality is still condemned.

Romans 1:26-27
For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was meet.

That should be the last statement needed for a Christian to condemn ****sexuality. Christians should separate themselves totally from this SIN.. To make accommodation for this sin, or any sin (Even if it is your ***) is to call good evil and evil good.. Anyone that does that is no more a Christian than were the crusaders that killed men, woman, and children indiscriminately. If a man know what was going on would he have sharpen their swords and then stand back and say, I was just following orders? If this weren't so serious it would be funny. But this isn't funny.. I call on ever county official in Utah that is called on to issue marriage license to ****sexual couples to refuse to do so even at the peril of their ***s.. Stand up for the right, choosing to obey God even when it is hard.. IHS jim

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by James Banta

By saying "I was only following orders". Down through history this excuse has been used..

In 1474, in the trial of Peter von Hagenbach by an ad hoc tribunal of the Holy Roman Empire, the first known “international” recognition of commanders’ obligations to act lawfully occurred. Hagenbach offered the defense that he was just following orders, but this defense was rejected and he was convicted of war crimes and beheaded. (An Introduction to the International Criminal Court, William A. Schabas, Cambridge University Press, Third Edition).

On October 8, 1945, Anton Dostler was the first German general to be tried for war crimes by a U.S. military tribunal at the Royal Palace of Caserta in Caserta. He was accused of ordering the execution of 15 captured U.S. soldiers in March 1944. He admitted ordering the execution but said that he could not be held responsible because he was just following orders from his superiors. This defense was rejected, Dostler was found guilty of war crimes. He was sentenced to death and executed by a firing squad on December 1, 1945..

"The fact that a person acted pursuant to order of his Government or of a superior does not relieve him from responsibility under international law, provided a moral choice was in fact possible to him." ( Nuremberg Principle IV)..

Can a person who breaks the moral laws of God and aids the abomination of sodomy be excused by saying "I was only following orders".. Don't bet your eternal destiny on it.. IHS jim

I gots to disagree with this one Jim...

I don't think there is anything wrong at all with allowing gays to get married.
By this I mean it does not help them become "more" gay.

In my view its like feeding someone who is gay at your table.
Or fixing a car that is owned by a gay.
or opening a door for someone who is gay.
It does not help them become even more gay, but it does show you treat all people the same regardless of your views of their personal life.

Thus I don't think we should make a clerk p***ing out the marriage paperwork to be equal to a guy lining up Americans against a wall and shooting them in the head.

[RealFakeHair]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

I gots to disagree with this one Jim...

I don't think there is anything wrong at all with allowing gays to get married.
By this I mean it does not help them become "more" gay.

In my view its like feeding someone who is gay at your table.
Or fixing a car that is owned by a gay.
or opening a door for someone who is gay.
It does not help them become even more gay, but it does show you treat all people the same regardless of your views of their personal life.

Thus I don't think we should make a clerk p***ing out the marriage paperwork to be equal to a guy lining up Americans against a wall and shooting them in the head.

I think gays should be allowed to marry their dogs or cats, wait, gay men like cats and gay women like dogs, so should they be allowed to marry the opposites?

[alanmolstad]

feeding people ....helping them fix their cars, bring protections of law and finances, all such things do not make people gayer.

their soul and their salvation are matters that the church can speak on.
But when dealing with legal standing we should allow such things to be handled by the ruling legal system we live under.

and it would be silly to make a person who is pushing paper in an office try to look equal to a guy lining up Americans against a wall....

[RealFakeHair]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

feeding people ....helping them fix their cars, bring protections of law and finances, all such things do not make people gayer.

their soul and their salvation are matters that the church can speak on.
But when dealing with legal standing we should allow such things to be handled by the ruling legal system we live under.

and it would be silly to make a person who is pushing paper in an office try to look equal to a guy lining up Americans against a wall....

I think some people said the same thing in 1936 Germany, but I could be wrong.

[Apologette]

These "marriages," so-called, are simply alliances not recognized by God. Our whole society has broken down. God is mocked, marriage is mocked, Jesus was even impersonated recently by the fellow who plays Spinoza on NCIS in a pro-abortion ad! We no longer watch that show. Obama, in my opinion, has pretty much undermined the moral fabric of this country, which must have been pretty shallow since he was able to do it so quickly. We are no better than the Romans were just before the hordes swept in and destroyed the Empire. America has p***ed into history, and I don't think we need to wrap ourselves in the flag any longer - we should wrap ourselves in the cross! God will not "bless America," where millions of babies have been savagely killed in the womb, Jesus is mocked nearly daily, and the Gospel falls on deaf ears. It began when they decided to exclude prayer from our schools. This is the fruit of disbelief!

[RealFakeHair]

Originally Posted by Apologette

These "marriages," so-called, are simply alliances not recognized by God. Our whole society has broken down. God is mocked, marriage is mocked, Jesus was even impersonated recently by the fellow who plays Spinoza on NCIS in a pro-abortion ad! We no longer watch that show. Obama, in my opinion, has pretty much undermined the moral fabric of this country, which must have been pretty shallow since he was able to do it so quickly. We are no better than the Romans were just before the hordes swept in and destroyed the Empire. America has p***ed into history, and I don't think we need to wrap ourselves in the flag any longer - we should wrap ourselves in the cross! God will not "bless America," where millions of babies have been savagely killed in the womb, Jesus is mocked nearly daily, and the Gospel falls on deaf ears. It began when they decided to exclude prayer from our schools. This is the fruit of disbelief!

And all this time Christians have given weak response to every evil thing done for the past 50+ years.
IMHO, Christians need to get a backbone and begin a resistance movement, even to the point of breaking laws.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Apologette

These "marriages," so-called, are simply alliances not recognized by God.

The law of God is up to God to decide...and He can decided all he wants as to the fate of men's souls...

But the law of men is up to man to decide...

The moment we turn over the law of the land to people that use their religious teachings to hand out rights we become just the same as the backward countries taken over by Islam.

What we should stand for is equality ...equality under the Law.
Equal rights.....none with more, none will less.

Seeking only to protect the rights of they who have no voice.

There simply is no reason to treat people differently because of sex....it's silly and opens the door to all kinds of abuse.

I think its a very poor witness that some Christians would refuse to give food to another person over who that person married, or wanted to marry.

I think it is also a very poor witness that some Christians would refuse to help a person in need over such a question...or to not fix their car if it was broken...

I also think that it is wrong to ***ume that a clerk for the State of Utah is just as guilty of a crime before God as Hitler...

and the people that try to force the two to look equal simply don't know what they are talking about.



As a faith it is disappointing that some Christians cant see past their own personal views and see the person.
See a person who is seeking food, and feed them.
See a person with a question and give them an answer.
see a person with a need and fill that need.
See a person who is thirsty and give them water.


But, there are always some people that when they see someone who they know is thirsty will not offer them a drink because they have the wrong philosophy....the wrong religion....or they worship the wrong God....married the wrong person...

[RealFakeHair]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

The law of God is up to God to decide...
The law of men is up to man to decide...

There simply is no reason to treat people differently because of sex.

I think its a very poor witness that some Christians would refuse to give food to another person over who that person married, or wanted to marry.

I think it is also a very poor witness that some Christians would refuse to help a person in need over such a question...or to not fix their car if it was broken...

I also think that it is wrong to ***ume that a clerk for the State of Utah is just as guilty of a crime before God as Hitler...

and the people that try to force the two to look equal simply don't know what they are talking about.

We all treat people differently because of (sex) we are wired that way, ie God's way. Do I treat beautiful women difference than non-or not so beautiful women? Of course I do, even if I try not to. It is in our DNA. Does that make it right? NO!
Same way it is with un-natural behavior is sex between same sex.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by RealFakeHair

We all treat people differently because of (sex) we are wired that way, ie God's way. Do I treat beautiful women difference than non-or not so beautiful women? Of course I do, even if I try not to. It is in our DNA. Does that make it right? NO!
Same way it is with un-natural behavior is sex between same sex.

We stand at the well with a bucket of water, and someone who is thirsty asks us for a drink....

We face a decision...

Do we give the person a drink because they are thirsty?
Or do we first call into question the matter of the person's philosophy?

[RealFakeHair]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

We stand at the well with a bucket of water, and someone who is thirsty asks us for a drink....

We face a decision...

Do we give the person a drink because they are thirsty?
Or do we first call into question the matter of the person's philosophy?

What we should do and what we do are sometimes different. We can only hope to choose the correct thing.

[Apologette]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

The law of God is up to God to decide...and He can decided all he wants as to the fate of men's souls...

But the law of men is up to man to decide...

The moment we turn over the law of the land to people that use their religious teachings to hand out rights we become just the same as the backward countries taken over by Islam.

What we should stand for is equality ...equality under the Law.
Equal rights.....none with more, none will less.

Seeking only to protect the rights of they who have no voice.

There simply is no reason to treat people differently because of sex....it's silly and opens the door to all kinds of abuse.

I think its a very poor witness that some Christians would refuse to give food to another person over who that person married, or wanted to marry.

I think it is also a very poor witness that some Christians would refuse to help a person in need over such a question...or to not fix their car if it was broken...

I also think that it is wrong to ***ume that a clerk for the State of Utah is just as guilty of a crime before God as Hitler...

and the people that try to force the two to look equal simply don't know what they are talking about.



As a faith it is disappointing that some Christians cant see past their own personal views and see the person.
See a person who is seeking food, and feed them.
See a person with a question and give them an answer.
see a person with a need and fill that need.
See a person who is thirsty and give them water.


But, there are always some people that when they see someone who they know is thirsty will not offer them a drink because they have the wrong philosophy....the wrong religion....or they worship the wrong God....married the wrong person...

Christians believe the Bible which tells us marriage is between a man and a woman, Alan. It is not between two men, two women, a man and a dog (oh, wait, that's down the road). Look at the Episcopal church - they perform gay weddings and ordain gay priests - now they call it the gay church. This is not the model I want for my grandchildren - in fact, I think it is disastrous to put children in public schools, as Dobson pointed out years ago. Either home school or send to Christian schools. I think we have to be in a "holding position," and if the forces that be come into our churches and demand that the pastor performs gay marriages - like RealFakeHair indicated, then it would be time to resist. We must obey God rather than man said Peter, and that is still true. North of the border hate speech is extended to the pulpit, where preaching against ****sexual practice is seen as a violation of the law. Christians in Africa and the Middle East are already under horrendous persecution. They are even examining that in Congress. It will come here soon enough!

[Apologette]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

We stand at the well with a bucket of water, and someone who is thirsty asks us for a drink....

We face a decision...

Do we give the person a drink because they are thirsty?
Or do we first call into question the matter of the person's philosophy?

False ****ogy. We're talking about violation of God's Law regarding sex, and the command to give a thirsty person a gl*** of water. Apples and Oranges. If, when the person's thirst is quenched, he asks to come and preach about the beauty of ****sexual sex in our Church, we say, "no way." In fact, we might give him a Bible and tell him to read Romans 1.

[alanmolstad]

the correct response to "Give me a drink" is?

"Here you go"

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

feeding people ....helping them fix their cars, bring protections of law and finances, all such things do not make people gayer.

their soul and their salvation are matters that the church can speak on.
But when dealing with legal standing we should allow such things to be handled by the ruling legal system we live under.http://www.waltermartin.com/forums/n...reply&p=152682

and it would be silly to make a person who is pushing paper in an office try to look equal to a guy lining up Americans against a wall....

Know what? I don't care as long as the Church is left out of the mix.. If the state wants to join these people in the bonds of sin, fine.. Yet there have been people who haven't wanted to become involved in ****sexual marriages that have been forced to do so until they closed their businesses to ALL patronage. Christian people forced to go out of business because they didn't want to be a gay couples baker.. The Gay couple was able to use the court to call a Christian evil and themselves good.. If it wasn't that they insist on forcing people to accept their perversion as normal maybe it would be so objectionable.. It's just like the LDS demanding that they are Christian when they deny the Divinity of Jesus, demand that God is a mere glorified man, and insist that if they are "obedient" they can be come a God to another generation of spirit children..

The Holy Spirit through Paul points out that ****sexuality is vile. It is written that they are filled with all unrighteousness.. As their will is forced onto the Church this wickedness will corrupt even those that believe into believing that they must be accepted or the Church will become nothing more than bigots..

Let the world call us what they may. Let them close our businesses, even our churches. Those of us that will not call good evil and evil good will not allow our faith to be distorted. Small churches will survive even if we have to meet in our homes.. The danger of ****sexuality to destroy our way of life has already been made clear.. This isn't just a live and let live sin.. It is a destructive horrible force in our lives. Something that must be resisted for the Church to remain the salt of the earth.. IHS jim

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by James Banta

..... Christian people forced to go out of business because they didn't want to be a gay couples baker........

I just think it would be better to give people food who ask for it, rather than feeding people based only on their philosophy.

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

I just think it would be better to give people food who ask for it, rather than feeding people based only on their philosophy.

Providing food is something no Christian would deny the hungry this was cake.. Since Maria Antoinette no one has said "Let them eat cake".. Bakeries now provide decorations and niceties for celebrations.. These folks were DEMANDING that a Christian people to help them celebrate.. A ****sexual wedding is no reason for a Christian to celebrate.. IHS jim

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by James Banta

Providing food is something no Christian would deny the hungry this was cake..

So it is a Christian doctrine that Christians can deny food to people based on their philosophy, or the sugar content?

This is a real teaching?

[alanmolstad]

It sorta like when people would refuse to serve interracial dinners at a cafe....

It's like if a gay person took their car to a shop, the guy working on cars would first have to ask, "Now you dont plan to ever give rides to other gay people in this car right?"

Its like a surgeon saying - "Now before I perform this operation, I have to know if the results of this operation will make you more attractive to your straight or to your gay friends?"


Or a school bus driver deciding that he cant drive a child home if the child's parent is gay.

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

It sorta like when people would refuse to serve interracial dinners at a cafe....

It's like if a gay person took their car to a shop, the guy working on cars would first have to ask, "Now you dont plan to ever give rides to other gay people in this car right?"

Its like a surgeon saying - "Now before I perform this operation, I have to know if the results of this operation will make you more attractive to your straight or to your gay friends?"


Or a school bus driver deciding that he cant drive a child home if the child's parent is gay.

You will have to explain to me how any of these examples is a celebration of a gay marriage.. I don't see how seeing people of a different race as unworthy of service as being in anyway the same thing as not servicing a ****sexual celebration of their sin.. It is in no way the same thing as racism, racism is sin, ****sexuality is sin.. Celebrating either is sin. If I was having lunch at a cafe and I saw this display of racism I would get up and leave.. We can love all sinners, yes even ****sexual sin, without becoming involved in the celebration of the sin.. We should never be forced to even aid in such a celebration.. IHS jim

[RealFakeHair]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

It sorta like when people would refuse to serve interracial dinners at a cafe....

It's like if a gay person took their car to a shop, the guy working on cars would first have to ask, "Now you dont plan to ever give rides to other gay people in this car right?"

Its like a surgeon saying - "Now before I perform this operation, I have to know if the results of this operation will make you more attractive to your straight or to your gay friends?"


Or a school bus driver deciding that he cant drive a child home if the child's parent is gay.

It all depends. First a school bus driver works for someone else, thus doesn't have the right to may a decision one way or the other. As for the other example it might depend on the company or person's own policy.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by James Banta

You will have to explain to me how any of these examples is a celebration of a gay marriage.. I don't see how seeing people of a different race as unworthy of service as being in anyway the same thing as not servicing a ****sexual celebration of their sin.. It is in no way the same thing as racism, racism is sin, ****sexuality is sin.. Celebrating either is sin. If I was having lunch at a cafe and I saw this display of racism I would get up and leave.. We can love all sinners, yes even ****sexual sin, without becoming involved in the celebration of the sin.. We should never be forced to even aid in such a celebration.. IHS jim

It is the same....


The moment we stop offering help to people based on their personal philosophy we become just like people who stopped serving people based on skin color....there is no difference!

feeding people....fixing their cars....driving their children home from school....there is no difference.
If we stop to first ask, "are you gay? are your parents gay?..will this be eaten by someone who is gay? we start to become a faith that is repellant.