Satan and the Mormon Temple "Secret" Rites! Don't Get Involved!

[theway]

Originally Posted by Apologette

So, what kind of sins would you like to confess publicly here? Hypocrisy maybe? We're not here to discuss personal life issues - that's a typical way that Mormons attack Christians. Get back on the topic of Mormonism, because it just might be that this could lead someplace you don't want to go.

OK... Let's get back to Mormonism.

Do you believe that all the wrongs that you claim Joseph Smith did, was the same as stealing a plate of cookies?

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by theway

OK... Let's get back to Mormonism.

Do you believe that all the wrongs that you claim Joseph Smith did, was the same as stealing a plate of cookies?

In the site of God, yes.. Sin, is rebellion against God. Rebellion is rebellion.. There are no levels of the penalty of sin now is there,, The only punishment for unconfessed, unforgiven sin in a person is death.. The sin doesn't matter to God, the Prophet tells is that "The soul that sinneth, it shall die." (Ezekiel 18:20). Does it matter if it is by bearing a false witness, cursing the name of God, murdering, or adultery? The penalty remains the same, DEATH.. Since there are no levels in God's punishment there must be no levels in the crime that brought that punishment.. That and through James the Holy Spirit teaches that exact doctrine as to the seriousness of sin (James 2:10)..

Many a fool might say that that lessens the seriousness of murder and adultery.. That would be a gross misunderstanding.. What it does is explains how serious all sin is.. Lying is a major sin it is explained as being equal to murder, and adultery in God's sight.. It not that murder and adultery are less of a sin than many believe them to be. It is that lying is a lot more sin than they have imagined. IHS jim

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

I do not care about what your husband did over 14 years ago. I am trying to understand how he sees this sin. I have no judgment for him on this, really. I am trying more to understand how he (James) sees it.

I have heard him discuss over and over that all sins are the same, that if we have broken any part of the law, we have broken all of it. That we are all filthy rags. I told him that if my husband committed adultery and then tried to p*** it off as I am just as bad as he is and in the same boat because I had lied about (for example) eating a plate of cookies, I would be ticked.

He then went on to explain the steps he took to repent and that he did take it seriously. (This is good for him).

But now I am trying to understand if the pastor would treat the sin of lying about eating a plate of cookies the same as adultery. I am trying to understand how James understands this because to me, it appears on one hand he acknowledges is as serious and then on the other hand tries to excuse his behavior by making it no different than any other sin in the eyes of God. Well, if it is no different then any other sin--why the confession to the whole congregation---unless we have to do that for EVERY sin? Why would the pastor treat it differently if God doesn't see it differently?

Since I never trivialized my sin I don't think you have a right to say I have.. Just because I believe the Bible even James 2 that teaches that faith without works is dead, and that if we keep the whole law offending is just one point we are guilty of all, you have no right to judge me for that faith.. I won't make any more judgment of you other than to say you deny that the scripture is true.. You may call Travis Mitchell at Sandy Ridge Community Church and ask him about Jmes 2:10 if you like.. The number is listed on their Home page of the net.. Call hos ask if all sin is the same before God in the light of that p***age.. See what he says.. I haven't spoken to him about it. You will caught him cold..

I have already told you my confession to the Pastor and the church were for my benefit, not to gain forgiveness. They helped me to hold my trust in God. They didn't add to whether God forgives or not.. Like David my sin was against God and only against God (Psalm 51:4) IHS jim

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

So, if this sin was the same---why did you need their prayers. I get what you are saying. You do not get what I am asking. You preach that all sin is the same in the eyes of God. Why then was this sin DIFFERENT for YOU? Why were you so low? Why did you need help of others?

I needed prayer because of my weakness in trusting God to do what He promised to do.. That is weakness in a extreme measure.. This sin was different to me because I am flesh. My flesh was still holding onto the thoughts of the flesh. That these sins so bitterly ***ailed by men are more sever than others.. Though this He showed me that all sin is extremely serious in His eyes.. That sin is sin and separates us from Him.. What could be worse that eternal separation from God? IHS jim

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by James Banta

I needed prayer because of my weakness in trusting God to do what He promised to do.. That is weakness in a extreme measure.. This sin was different to me because I am flesh. My flesh was still holding onto the thoughts of the flesh. That these sins so bitterly ***ailed by men are more sever than others.. Though this He showed me that all sin is extremely serious in His eyes.. That sin is sin and separates us from Him.. What could be worse that eternal separation from God? IHS jim

James, I agree that all sin is serious in the eyes of God. I also understand that you recognize that this sin was more serious for you because to overcome it took more faith and more work on your part. But, I have told your wife that I will not discuss this anymore. It seems still a very tender spot for her (something I did not understand...in fact, I thought Apologette was your wife, as I remember your wife was a member here...just didn't remember who.)

I think the way asked some good questions then..that I guess you also see Joseph Smith on the exact same plain as yourself as you would not see his sins any different than yours in the eyes of God. As to you, one sinner is like the next and we all need Christ to save us. I completely agree, we all need Christ to save us. The problem is--Joseph Smith revealed this to us many times as well, so clearly, he understood and looked to Christ for salvation. He also understood that some sins take more work than others to overcome (through faith) just as you demonstrated and have taught in this thread.

[Apologette]

Originally Posted by theway

OK... Let's get back to Mormonism.

Do you believe that all the wrongs that you claim Joseph Smith did, was the same as stealing a plate of cookies?

Any sin will keep you out of the presence of God when you die. We do not enter heaven depending on our own righteousness but on the righteousness of the Biblical Christ, who is not the brother of Satan or the offspring of polygamous, pagan deities.

God condemns certain sins fiercely in the Bible. The sin of idolatry He consistently punished severely in the Old Testament, even to the point of having them taken captive by their enemies. Having "high places" and "Asherah poles" is the same as having false temples (as Mormons do), and the belief that God shares His glory with another (like Asherah - at least on Mormon we've seen contends that Asherah is "Mother goddess). Mormons are guilty of the sin of idolatry - take it from there.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by James Banta

Like David my sin was against God and only against God (Psalm 51:4) IHS jim

Here I disagree. The sin also hurt your wife and others (children, family)---as we can clearly see from this thread. My prayers are with her that she may heal from this hurt. You clearly have done the hard work of repentance. But---we really need to get away from this and back to the subject at hand...temples....we diverged with the subject of chast ity.

I will let you get back to your criticisms of my beliefs and actions (of temple attendance)

[Apologette]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

James, I agree that all sin is serious in the eyes of God. I also understand that you recognize that this sin was more serious for you because to overcome it took more faith and more work on your part. But, I have told your wife that I will not discuss this anymore. It seems still a very tender spot for her (something I did not understand...in fact, I thought Apologette was your wife, as I remember your wife was a member here...just didn't remember who.)

I think the way asked some good questions then..that I guess you also see Joseph Smith on the exact same plain as yourself as you would not see his sins any different than yours in the eyes of God. As to you, one sinner is like the next and we all need Christ to save us. I completely agree, we all need Christ to save us. The problem is--Joseph Smith revealed this to us many times as well, so clearly, he understood and looked to Christ for salvation. He also understood that some sins take more work than others to overcome (through faith) just as you demonstrated and have taught in this thread.

Joseph Smith was a lying false prophet - for Him God has reserved a special place: "Rev. 19:20: 20 But the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who had performed the signs on its behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped its image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur." And so shall be the end of all those who set out to deceive the Bride of Christ!

[theway]

Originally Posted by Apologette

Joseph Smith was a lying false prophet - for Him God has reserved a special place: "Rev. 19:20: 20 But the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who had performed the signs on its behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped its image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur." And so shall be the end of all those who set out to deceive the Bride of Christ!

Why would he be ***igned to a special place if his sins are on the same level as yours?

You guys never follow your own theology????

[theway]

Originally Posted by James Banta

In the site of God, yes.. Sin, is rebellion against God. Rebellion is rebellion.. There are no levels of the penalty of sin now is there,

Then if that is true and you feel that you can keep bringing up the sins of someone who can not even defend himself, then why do you complain when someone brings up your past sins???

[Apologette]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Here I disagree. The sin also hurt your wife and others (children, family)---as we can clearly see from this thread. My prayers are with her that she may heal from this hurt. You clearly have done the hard work of repentance. But---we really need to get away from this and back to the subject at hand...temples....we diverged with the subject of chast ity.

I will let you get back to your criticisms of my beliefs and actions (of temple attendance)

You like to talk about other people's specific sin? Does it make you feel superior? Do you carry a pile of stones with you, since you apparently are without sin, right? Who are you to judge, when you commit the sin of rebellion?

[Apologette]

Originally Posted by theway

Why would he be ***igned to a special place if his sins are on the same level as yours?

You guys never follow your own theology????

All sin will exclude you from heaven - all are equally evil to God. However, false prophets are singled out specifically in the Bible. Read the Bible! The Old Testament sacrifices, which find fulfillment in Christ's sacrifice ON THE CROSS (which Mormons hate) were categorized. Sins of ignorance, for instance, were distinguished from idolatry. Each sin had a specific sacrifice ***igned. Mormons are guilty of the sin of idolatry, and whine and yam because we point out to them that they are worshipping a "god" made in their own image - an idol created in the warped, depraved mind of Joseph Smith.

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by Apologette

All sin will exclude you from heaven - all are equally evil to God.

Then everyone, including you antis, will be excluded from heaven, since:

1. All sin will exclude you from heaven, and

2. All have sinned.

However, false prophets are singled out specifically in the Bible.

But Jim has admitted that all the sins Joseph Smith committed were the equivalent of taking a plate of cookies.


So, if Jim is right--and he claims he gets his ideas from the bible and only the bible--then you antis have been obsessing and harping and wasting your lives fretting over nothing worse than a stolen plate of cookies.

[theway]

Originally Posted by Apologette

All sin will exclude you from heaven - all are equally evil to God. However, false prophets are singled out specifically in the Bible. Read the Bible! The Old Testament sacrifices, which find fulfillment in Christ's sacrifice ON THE CROSS (which Mormons hate) were categorized. Sins of ignorance, for instance, were distinguished from idolatry. Each sin had a specific sacrifice ***igned. Mormons are guilty of the sin of idolatry, and whine and yam because we point out to them that they are worshipping a "god" made in their own image - an idol created in the warped, depraved mind of Joseph Smith.

You still haven't answered the question. If all sins carry the same weight, then why (under your theology) would they be ***igned to a special place?

Under the gospel of Jesus Christ as found in the Bible, it's because some sins carry a greater weight. However under YOUR theology it's creates an untenable paradox. Nothing new there though.

[Apologette]

Originally Posted by theway

You still haven't answered the question. If all sins carry the same weight, then why (under your theology) would they be ***igned to a special place?

Under the gospel of Jesus Christ as found in the Bible, it's because some sins carry a greater weight. However under YOUR theology it's creates an untenable paradox. Nothing new there though.

All sinners will be eternally consigned to Hell, eternal separation from God, outer darkness , where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. You have failed to believe in Biblical Jesus, the Son of God, the One provision provided by God as the means of salvation. It is unbelief which sends you to Hell - you send yourself!

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Apologette

All sinners will be eternally consigned to Hell, eternal separation from God, outer darkness , where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. You have failed to believe in Biblical Jesus, the Son of God, the One provision provided by God as the means of salvation. It is unbelief which sends you to Hell - you send yourself!

What do you think that Christ meant then, when he spoke of a "greater ****ation"?

Mat 23:14 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater ****ation.

[theway]

Originally Posted by Apologette

All sinners will be eternally consigned to Hell, eternal separation from God, outer darkness , where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. You have failed to believe in Biblical Jesus, the Son of God, the One provision provided by God as the means of salvation. It is unbelief which sends you to Hell - you send yourself!

No... Still not an answer to my simple question CA....

Are you afraid that by so doing that it will expose the absolute absurdity of you Faith Alone theology?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by theway

Are you afraid that by so doing that it will expose the absolute absurdity of you Faith Alone theology?

So you admit that your works contribute for salvation (i.e. you work your way to heaven)?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

What do you think that Christ meant then, when he spoke of a "greater ****ation"?

Mat 23:14 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater ****ation.

That there are varying degrees of punishment in hell.

Now how does that address the issue that people such as yourself who place their faith in a false god will likely end up in hell?

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Billyray

That there are varying degrees of punishment in hell.

Now how does that address the issue that people such as yourself who place their faith in a false god will likely end up in hell?

Oh, that's right---you believe in varying degrees of hell, but not heaven. I forgot you believe this.

I see discussion in the scriptures regarding degrees of glory---but not of hell. How do you come to believe this "degrees of punishment" stuff?

[theway]

Originally Posted by Billyray

So you admit that your works contribute for salvation (i.e. you work your way to heaven)?

That's nice Billy.... Still trying to conflate two separate arguments at the same time I see.... Has It ever really worked?

Now just take your little merry-go-round ride somewhere else.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by theway

That's nice Billy.... Still trying to conflate two separate arguments at the same time I see.... Has It ever really worked?

Now just take your little merry-go-round ride somewhere else.

Here is what you said

Originally Posted by theway

Are you afraid that by so doing that it will expose the absolute absurdity of you Faith Alone theology?

By your comment you admit that you believe that your works contribute for salvation i.e. you work your way to heaven.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Oh, that's right---you believe in varying degrees of hell, but not heaven. I forgot you believe this.

I never said that there were multiple Hells. Did I?

For example people on earth can have varying degrees of punishment for breaking the law but that doesn't mean that there are multiple earths. Perhaps you should actually read what I said.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Here is what you said


By your comment you admit that you believe that your works contribute for salvation i.e. you work your way to heaven.

Man, we have gone over this so many times Billyray. Think of it this way. A parent pays for the piano, pays for the lessons, pays to take the kid back and forth to the lessons---but somewhere, the kid has to work to learn to play the piano. A child could never say they learned the piano on their own. Any child would have to understand that it was his parent's grace that allowed him the opportunity to learn and that without their grace--nothing he could have done would have mattered. But, the child had to work or the grace would have been for nothing.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Billyray

I never said that there were multiple Hells. Did I?

For example people on earth can have varying degrees of punishment for breaking the law but that doesn't mean that there are multiple earths. Perhaps you should actually read what I said.

Oh, varying degrees of punishment---but that does not const tiute different "hells"---(I wasn't speaking of a place, but then I don't think of heaven as a place either but as a state of being.)

Okay, I see. So, what in the scriptures makes you think there are varying degrees of punishment?