The Big Lie!

[Erundur]

Originally Posted by RealFakeHair

I only wish you got it, but you are at this point to far gone, but hey that's life. Good luck in your future.

I accept your concession.

[RealFakeHair]

Originally Posted by Erundur

I accept your concession.

Even though I see you are paying the idiot game, I am okay with it anyways. By the way what are you 12 or 13 years old?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by James Banta

There are the words of Joseph Smith from the 1832 account:

while in the at***ude of calling upon the Lord in the 16th year of my age a piller of fire light above the brightness of the sun at noon day come down from above and rested upon me and I was filled with the spirit of god and the Lord opened the heavens upon me and I saw the Lord and he spake unto me saying Joseph my son thy sins are forgiven thee. go thy way walk in my statutes and keep my commandments behold I am the Lord of glory I was crucifyed for the world that all those who believe on my name may have Eternal life behold the world lieth in Sin and at this time and none doeth good no not one they have turned ***ide from the gospel and keep not my commandments they draw near to me with their lips while their hearts are far from me and mine anger is kindling against the inhabitants of the earth to visit them acording to th[e]ir ungodliness and to bring to p*** that which hath been spoken by the mouth of the prophets and Ap[o]stles behold and lo I come quickly as it [is] written of me in the cloud clothed in the glory of my Father and my soul was filled with love and for many days I could rejoice with great Joy and the Lord was with me but [I] could find none that would believe the hevnly vision nevertheless I pondered these things in my heart (http://en.fairmormon.org/Primary_sou..._accounts/1832)

This is suppose to be the same account given in JSH PofGP Look at it again:

It no sooner appeared than I found myself delivered from the enemy which held me bound. When the light rested upon me I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other—This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him! My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong)—and which I should join. I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: “they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.” He again forbade me to join with any of them; and many other things did he say unto me, which I cannot write at this time. When I came to myself again, I found myself lying on my back, looking up into heaven. When the light had departed, I had no strength; but soon recovering in some degree, I went home. And as I leaned up to the fireplace, mother inquired what the matter was. I replied, “Never mind, all is well—I am well enough off.” (PofPG JSH)

Can you see any differences?

Differences? Yes. Contradictions? No. Have you ever red the accounts given in the Gospel concerning the resurrection of Christ? They vary quite radically, although, I am not sure they contradict. A statement by Joseph Smith that he saw the Lord--and then more particularally--two personages--does not necessarily contradict. They both can easily be true. One is a general statement--the other a detailed statement.

[RealFakeHair]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Differences? Yes. Contradictions? No. Have you ever red the accounts given in the Gospel concerning the resurrection of Christ? They vary quite radically, although, I am not sure they contradict. A statement by Joseph Smith that he saw the Lord--and then more particularally--two personages--does not necessarily contradict. They both can easily be true. One is a general statement--the other a detailed statement.

Up in the air its a bird, plane? No its Superman!
Joseph Smith jr. In the woods, in my bed-room, in 1820, 1823, I was 15,16, or was it 17? Up in the air its an angel, mormon jesus, mormon god and jesus? No it's my imaginary mind!

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by RealFakeHair

Up in the air its a bird, plane? No its Superman! Joseph Smith jr. In the woods, in my bed-room, in 1820, 1823, I was 15,16, or was it 17? Up in the air its an angel, mormon jesus, mormon god and jesus? No it's my imaginary mind!

That might even extend beyond an imagination.

[neverending]

Originally Posted by Erundur

I accept your concession.

This is your pat answer because you can't do any research and defend your faith. I feel very sorry for you.

[Erundur]

Originally Posted by neverending

This is your pat answer because you can't do any research and defend your faith.

My defense of my faith is exposing the fact that you guys can't back up your claims, and therefore your attacks are without merit. It's very effective.

[neverending]

Originally Posted by Erundur

My defense of my faith is exposing the fact that you guys can't back up your claims, and therefore your attacks are without merit. It's very effective.

The FACT is, you can't accept the truth!! We have shown you over and over from your own books, Church History, BoM, Pearl of Great Price etc. that what JS did was all lies. His life was far from being a godly man. It's not my fault or any other Christian's fault that YOU refuse to see the truth. So this concession **** is just that. You want to defend or just belly ache? I've yet to see you use ONE verse from any of your church's books to defend your faith, not one. I've yet to see you even quote ONE Bible verse. I say you don't know your Bible nor your own Standard Works. Thanks for your concession and proving what I say is true about you.

[Erundur]

Originally Posted by neverending

The FACT is, you can't accept the truth!!

Of course I can. I choose not to accept anti-Mormon lies.

We have shown you over and over from your own books, Church History, BoM, Pearl of Great Price etc. that what JS did was all lies. His life was far from being a godly man.

Here comes another distraction. Having lost the debate first on the first vision = second coming, then on first vision accounts contradict, you want to change the subject again and just smear Joseph Smith's character. If you don't want to defend your claim, then all I can do is accept your concession.

[neverending]

Originally Posted by Erundur

Of course I can. I choose not to accept anti-Mormon lies.


Here comes another distraction. Having lost the debate first on the first vision = second coming, then on first vision accounts contradict, you want to change the subject again and just smear Joseph Smith's character. If you don't want to defend your claim, then all I can do is accept your concession.

I choose NOT to accept Mormon lies. Where does that leave us, NO WHERE. Thanks for your concession and your obsession with concession!! OH PLEASE....broken record! BYE!

[Erundur]

Originally Posted by neverending

Thanks for your concession

That only works if the person actually concedes.

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Erundur

That only works if the person actually concedes.

Exactly! And I have not seen anyone actually do that when trying to discuss mormonism with you.. You make the same ***umptions that you have now been a victim.. No one has conceded to you anymore than you have to us.. Please don't use that phrase, it is as infuriating to us as it seems to have been to you.. I will not concede that mormonism teaches different Jesus from the Jesus found in the Bible. The Jesus of the Bible is God, He has been with the Father since the beginning.. That is the message of John 1:1. I will not concede that there is One God, That no other God existed before that God. I will not concede that no other God will ever be formed in the future. I will not concede that God has been God from everlasting and will continue to be God to everlasting.. I will not concede that God forms the spirit of man within him not in some preexistence world. I will not concede that salvation is a gift of God given to those who hold faith in the Jesus of the Bible and is not a product of works. I will not concede that the order of creation is first physical and then spiritual. I will not concede that that the Father is an invisible God of whom Jesus is the tangible image.. I will Not concede that the Father is Spirit and a spirit does not have flesh and bone.. These are all facts. All taught buy the Holy Spirit to Apostles and prophets. To concede any one of those points would be the same thing as calling God a liar. That may be something you find easy to Do but it is impossible for a true believer in Jesus the Christ.. IHS jim

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Apologette

Oh, there still around. Their headquarters is in Tarrytown, NY, I believe. There has been some internal conflict (I believe among the Moon family members), but they still exist. Moon is dead, and I'm not sure who is running that group now.

So with that conflict their message and efforts go for not.. That sounds like a good thing.. IHS jim

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by James Banta

Exactly! And I have not seen anyone actually do that when trying to discuss mormonism with you.. You make the same ***umptions that you have now been a victim.. No one has conceded to you anymore than you have to us.. Please don't use that phrase, it is as infuriating to us as it seems to have been to you.. I will not concede that mormonism teaches different Jesus from the Jesus found in the Bible. The Jesus of the Bible is God, He has been with the Father since the beginning.. That is the message of John 1:1. I will not concede that there is One God, That no other God existed before that God.

A couple of points here, Jim:

1) Christ was never designated as the "one God" in the Biblical NT:


1 Corinthians 8:6---King James Version (KJV)

6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

2) Jesus Christ conceded the fact that God the Father was both His God and His Father.


John 20:17---King James Version (KJV)

17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Could you explain to us how the Father does not precede the Son?

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

A couple of points here, Jim:

1) Christ was never designated as the "one God" in the Biblical NT:


1 Corinthians 8:6---King James Version (KJV)

6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

2) Jesus Christ conceded the fact that God the Father was both His God and His Father.


John 20:17---King James Version (KJV)

17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Could you explain to us how the Father does not precede the Son?

Question.. Did Jesus ever confirm that the Lord our God is one Lord? Look at Mark 12:29 and then tell me that He never confirmed that teaching? Then tell me that Jesus never used the name of God to refer to Himself after you read John 8:58.. In saying the things you have quoted alone with the p***ages I have quoted it is clear that the Trinity is the only way that the Father could be the God of Jesus and Jesus be God. I have quoted Isaiah 43:10 to you many times.. There it says that No God was formed before our God and no God will be formed after Him.. So Jesus was either God all the time the Father has been God or He is NOT God at all.. Was Jesus always in His resurrection body as he was in John 20:17? Was there a time when He was a Spiritual en***y, like maybe before he entered mortality.. Even mormonism teaches that.. But to be the Fathers creation as we are His creation.. That is just so unbiblical that it is nothing but cultic being unsupportable by the scripture.. IHS jim

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---A couple of points here, Jim:

1) Christ was never designated as the "one God" in the Biblical NT:


1 Corinthians 8:6---King James Version (KJV)

6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

2) Jesus Christ conceded the fact that God the Father was both His God and His Father.

John 20:17---King James Version (KJV)

17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Could you explain to us how the Father does not precede the Son?

Originally Posted by James Banta

Question.. Did Jesus ever confirm that the Lord our God is one Lord? Look at Mark 12:29 and then tell me that He never confirmed that teaching?

Jesus did confirm the "one Lord"--just as Paul confirmed the "one God". But that "one God" was not Christ--and neither does the "one Lord" mean there is not another Lord:


Matthew 22:44----King James Version (KJV)

44 The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?

Then tell me that Jesus never used the name of God to refer to Himself after you read John 8:58..

Jesus Christ was God the Son. Just not the same God as God the Father.

In saying the things you have quoted alone with the p***ages I have quoted it is clear that the Trinity is the only way that the Father could be the God of Jesus and Jesus be God.

Not true---the only way I see is that God the Father is not the same God as God the Son.

I have quoted Isaiah 43:10 to you many times..

Again--the NT writers did not adopt the theology of the Deutero-Isaiah writers. The Early Church Fathers neither. Nor did the apostles:


Revelation 3:21---King James Version (KJV)

21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

One cannot have a God of another God and they be the same God. Christ is eternally subjected to His Father--and claimed that His God and Father was the same God and Father of mankind. That is not Deutero-Isaiah theology--it cannot fit that theology.

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Differences? Yes. Contradictions? No. Have you ever red the accounts given in the Gospel concerning the resurrection of Christ? They vary quite radically, although, I am not sure they contradict. A statement by Joseph Smith that he saw the Lord--and then more particularally--two personages--does not necessarily contradict. They both can easily be true. One is a general statement--the other a detailed statement.

The accounts given in the Gospel concerning the resurrection of Christ were given by inspiration to different men.. Each man recorded what they were given.. Smith was ONE PERSON.. Matthew and John were two different men last time I checked.. Two perspectives of the event, as long as they don't conflict can we stated differently. In fact in seeing that they are we can see that one isn't just a copy of the other. But if John would have said that Jesus hadn't actually be raised in bodily form after he said that He had been, that would be a contradiction.

Here in this testimony the same man gave a testimony so different that GOD the Father was excluded in one and clearly announced in the other.. The Father being Ignored? Jesus introducing Himself? The lack of an indictment against the Church and instead charges against the world? No one acted as scribe to the 1832 version of this vision it was all Joseph Smith.. Is the official PofPG JSH version in error because a scribe was used to record it? Even if you can find a way to exclude mention of the Greatest person in the universe from mention (It sounds more like Saul's testimony of seeing Jesus than what Joseph Smith tells us in JSH). How does that explain the differences in the accusations against the Church and Her teachers that just isn't seen in the 1832 version.. Really I keep coming back to the lack of the mention of the Father.. Even in the official version the mention of the Father's presence didn't take up that much time to include nor did it consume that much space in the text. Calling it an overview and excluding the Father is a cop-out.. No where in the 1832 version does Joseph Smith tell us that the testimony was an overview. That wasn't said until Smith dictated his history now found in the PofGP (See verse 20). It would seem that the PofPG version is the overview not the 1832 version.. The hand written version is closer to the source. He said he had that vision when he was 16 that would have been in 1822 just 10 years before he recorded it. The PofPG version said he was 15 and the vision was recorded in 1838 that was 18 years from the event.. There are so many problems with the differing version that they clearly show an evolving story.. IHS jim

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by James Banta

The accounts given in the Gospel concerning the resurrection of Christ were given by inspiration to different men.. Each man recorded what they were given.. Smith was ONE PERSON.. Matthew and John were two different men last time I checked..

And the last time I looked--the writer of Acts gives varying accounts of Paul's Damascus road conversion--or Paul's baptismal account, etc.

Two perspectives of the event, as long as they don't conflict can we stated differently. In fact in seeing that they are we can see that one isn't just a copy of the other. But if John would have said that Jesus hadn't actually be raised in bodily form after he said that He had been, that would be a contradiction.

I agree. So--specifically--where do you find a contradiction? Give us the wording, please.

Here in this testimony the same man gave a testimony so different that GOD the Father was excluded in one and clearly announced in the other..

Where did Joseph Smith state that God the Father was not present in the vision? That he does not mention God the Father in one account--and does so in a more detailed account--does not conflict---anymore than one gospel writer stating that an angel was present at the tomb--and another stating two were present. That does not conflict--unless one account stated there was ONLY one present.

Where do you see an account of Joseph Smith stating God the Father was not present--and another account stating He was present?

[neverending]

Originally Posted by Pa Pa

Comparing us to monies is despicable, JW almost as bad. The lies you should mention is over the murderers Luther and Calvin. You know the father of the Protestant movement and the father of the reformation of the same.

The horror is that those who follow Calvin and believe his lies and think they are chosen while others are condemned to hell..just cause. Will someday met that God and discover their sin have destroyed all hope of heaven. If you are a Calvinist then you believe that babies who were not saved from the beginning are worthy of hell. If this doctrine is true and the child I lost is bound for hell...then God is more deserving of hell than any other.

Papa.....how sorry I am that you lost a child, I can't imagine anything worse. I do not believe that a baby or a child are ****ed to hell. We know from scriptures that Christ loved children. It isn't until a person is able to fully understand the sacrifice that Christ made that they are able to chose for themselves whether or not they believe in him and accept him. Papa, there is no reason to blaspheme God; this is a horrible way to think. God has his plan for all people and we don't understand his reasons for why things happen. It takes faith to know that he sees the big picture. May I share with you something?
I lost my Dad when I was 35, he died suddenly of a heart attack, that was in 1987. After that, I watched my Mom decline in health all due to her not being able to accept my Dad's p***ing. I called it, Slow Suicide because she gave up on life, nothing meant anything to her. She spent 3 separate occasions in Psych. Facilities for clinical depression and even was on an anti-depressant but nothing helped. No amount of talking to her helped because she had talked herself into not wanting to live. She p***ed away in 2001. After that, it was my oldest brother. He never married due to being gay and he lived at home his entire life except for the 2 years he was on a mission for your church. After my Mom died, he became depressed and didn't care about anything too. His health began to decline as well and he had a small stroke in 2004. Two years later, he had another stroke and I and my only other sibling got to sit for two days and wait for my oldest brother to die. There was nothing that could be done. Well, it was that next spring, (my brother died in September of 2007) James went to work and became very ill. He was taken to the hospital and later had surgery due to a bowel rupture. He almost died because two doctors argued over what they thought was wrong and peritonitis had begun. It took James 3 months to recover enough to then have a second surgery to reconnect his bowel and finally he was well again til August when he was involved in a terrible car accident that once again we faced a life and death situation. James missed 9 months out of that year and when he finally had recovered enough to try and go back to work, his very first day back he was told, "Jim, we no longer need you. You can either be laid off or you can take early retirement." I will never forget the call that day as it was like a slap in the face but Papa...it cost us $62,000 for James to buy out his retirement, he had four more years with his *** before he could officially retire. What I am trying to tell you is, had it not been for my brother's p***ing, we wouldn't have had the money for James to buy out that time. My brother had inherited my parent's home but we had to sell it because my brother was on Medicaid and the State wanted their money for paying his medical bills. So, God knew what was coming for James and I and he provided a way for us; we also had our 15 year old grand daughter living with us too. Please don't think I don't miss my brother, for I miss him everyday. We were very close and shared many things in common but as I was saying, God saw the big picture and knew what we would need. Please don't hold anger in your heart, hold the memory of your child in your heart instead and your child will always be with you.
Life can be cruel and usually is but it is in those times that our faith is tested and I can tell you that without God in my life, I know I wouldn't have been able to help James nor deal with all the stress. I admit that there was a couple of days when I was angry with God and felt he no longer loved me but that was me, he still loved me, he was still there for me, I had deserted him. It was the following year that James was diagnosed with Congestive Heart Failure which hit me like a ton of bricks and I faced each morning wondering if James would still be with me. It was my knowledge from being a nurse that I began my study and research into heart disease and what I could do to help James' heart. I thank God for giving me the knowledge and wisdom to do all that was necessary and I praise God everyday as James no longer has Congestive Heart Failure and has been told he has Cardiomyopathy (a weak heart). We can live with that even though, James doesn't have the stamina he once had, we still work together and get things done around here.
Look to God Papa in all things and trust him to lead you, he will, he loves you; he always has and we have his promise that he will never leave us, nor forsake us. You are in my prayers.

[James Banta]

[dberrie2000;151929]And the last time I looked--the writer of Acts gives varying accounts of Paul's Damascus road conversion--or Paul's baptismal account, etc.

Yes you are right you got me.. BUT did these accounts ever get the number of persons Paul had seen wrong? Was the Father there even though Paul said that he had seen Jesus never mentioning the Father? But then Paul never said later that the father was there did he.. Paul's witness was consistent in the Person he saw and the message that was given.. Every time it was only Jesus, and every time it was a call to take the Gospel to the world.. Yes there are some difference between the accounts but nothing like Smith invented in the retelling of his experience..

Again was Paul the author of the retelling of his vision of Jesus on the road to Damascus? No! Did he leave two widely differing accounts of him experience or was it given as inspiration to Doctor Luke? yes the good doctor told the story in differing wording but did it have the same meaning without changing who the condemnation for sin was directed as Smith did. can't you see in the 1832 version that the world is being judged and in the PofPG version it has been changed to a condemnation of the Church? Read it and see for yourself.. I have posted both copies on this tread go read them..

I agree. So--specifically--where do you find a contradiction? Give us the wording, please.

Even through I provided the text you can't see it. Hummmm, That doesn't help me respect you much more than I ever have.. Here is the sections I find to be in conflict.

while in the at***ude of calling upon the Lord in the 16th year of my age a piller of fire light above the brightness of the sun at noon day come down from above and rested upon me and I was filled with the spirit of god and the Lord opened the heavens upon me and I saw the Lord and he spake unto me saying Joseph my son thy sins are forgiven thee. go thy way walk in my statutes and keep my commandments behold I am the Lord of glory I was crucifyed for the world that all those who believe on my name may have Eternal life behold the world lieth in Sin and at this time and none doeth good no not one they have turned ***ide from the gospel and keep not my commandments they draw near to me with their lips while their hearts are far from me and mine anger is kindling against the inhabitants of the earth to visit them acording to th[e]ir ungodliness and to bring to p*** that which hath been spoken by the mouth of the prophets and Ap[o]stles behold and lo I come quickly as it [is] written of me in the cloud clothed in the glory of my Father and my soul was filled with love and for many days I could rejoice with great Joy and the Lord was with me but [I] could find none that would believe the hevnly vision nevertheless I pondered these things in my heart (http://en.fairmormon.org/Primary_sou..._accounts/1832)

And in the PofPG version it says:

It no sooner appeared than I found myself delivered from the enemy which held me bound. When the light rested upon me I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other—This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him! My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong)—and which I should join. I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: “they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.” He again forbade me to join with any of them; and many other things did he say unto me, which I cannot write at this time. When I came to myself again, I found myself lying on my back, looking up into heaven. When the light had departed, I had no strength; but soon recovering in some degree, I went home. And as I leaned up to the fireplace, mother inquired what the matter was. I replied, “Never mind, all is well—I am well enough off.” (PofPG JSH)

The added information from one to the other I don't question that indeed could be like the differing accounts of Paul's vision but these things that are clearly in conflict those I point to.. It was clearly an evolving story. And invention not an actual event..

Where did Joseph Smith state that God the Father was not present in the vision? That he does not mention God the Father in one account--and does so in a more detailed account--does not conflict---anymore than one gospel writer stating that an angel was present at the tomb--and another stating two were present. That does not conflict--unless one account stated there was ONLY one present.

Paul didn't say the Father was there either.. No one believes that Paul saw the Father and the Son, It was Jesus that appeared to Paul and by saying the "I saw the Lord" Smith was claiming the same thing not that the Father was included.. It is no harder nor does it take more time to write "the heavens upon me and I saw the Lord" Than it does to write "When the light rested upon me[B] I saw two Personages".. You are making excuses for the inconsistencies you have no real explanation..

Where do you see an account of Joseph Smith stating God the Father was not present--and another account stating He was present?

It doesn't say I was there either maybe by Smith's lack of saying I was there that I was standing right there along side Jesus.. Is that reasonable? No? Neither is it reasonable that Smith ever saw the Invisible God (Col 1:15).. The story of the first vision as is written in the PofPG was an evolved story which Smith made up as he grew his doctrines that became the LDS church.. IHS jim

[dberrie2000]

[dberrie2000;151929]And the last time I looked--the writer of Acts gives varying accounts of Paul's Damascus road conversion--or Paul's baptismal account, etc.

Originally Posted by James Banta

Yes you are right you got me.. BUT did these accounts ever get the number of persons Paul had seen wrong?

Please show us the exact number Joseph Smith testified to--and then where that contradicts any other testimony of his.

Was the Father there even though Paul said that he had seen Jesus never mentioning the Father?

Obviously He was--and not mentioning something in a narrative does mean it was not there.

But then Paul never said later that the father was there did he.. Paul's witness was consistent in the Person he saw and the message that was given.. Every time it was only Jesus, and every time it was a call to take the Gospel to the world.. Yes there are some difference between the accounts but nothing like Smith invented in the retelling of his experience..

Again was Paul the author of the retelling of his vision of Jesus on the road to Damascus? No! Did he leave two widely differing accounts of him experience or was it given as inspiration to Doctor Luke? yes the good doctor told the story in differing wording but did it have the same meaning without changing who the condemnation for sin was directed as Smith did. can't you see in the 1832 version that the world is being judged and in the PofPG version it has been changed to a condemnation of the Church? Read it and see for yourself.. I have posted both copies on this tread go read them..



Even through I provided the text you can't see it. Hummmm, That doesn't help me respect you much more than I ever have.. Here is the sections I find to be in conflict.

while in the at***ude of calling upon the Lord in the 16th year of my age a piller of fire light above the brightness of the sun at noon day come down from above and rested upon me and I was filled with the spirit of god and the Lord opened the heavens upon me and I saw the Lord and he spake unto me saying Joseph my son thy sins are forgiven thee. go thy way walk in my statutes and keep my commandments behold I am the Lord of glory I was crucifyed for the world that all those who believe on my name may have Eternal life behold the world lieth in Sin and at this time and none doeth good no not one they have turned ***ide from the gospel and keep not my commandments they draw near to me with their lips while their hearts are far from me and mine anger is kindling against the inhabitants of the earth to visit them acording to th[e]ir ungodliness and to bring to p*** that which hath been spoken by the mouth of the prophets and Ap[o]stles behold and lo I come quickly as it [is] written of me in the cloud clothed in the glory of my Father and my soul was filled with love and for many days I could rejoice with great Joy and the Lord was with me but [I] could find none that would believe the hevnly vision nevertheless I pondered these things in my heart (http://en.fairmormon.org/Primary_sou..._accounts/1832)

And in the PofPG version it says:

It no sooner appeared than I found myself delivered from the enemy which held me bound. When the light rested upon me I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other—This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him! My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong)—and which I should join. I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: “they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.” He again forbade me to join with any of them; and many other things did he say unto me, which I cannot write at this time. When I came to myself again, I found myself lying on my back, looking up into heaven. When the light had departed, I had no strength; but soon recovering in some degree, I went home. And as I leaned up to the fireplace, mother inquired what the matter was. I replied, “Never mind, all is well—I am well enough off.” (PofPG JSH)

The added information from one to the other I don't question that indeed could be like the differing accounts of Paul's vision but these things that are clearly in conflict those I point to.. It was clearly an evolving story. And invention not an actual event..

That a story evolves is not proof it is an invention.

[Apologette]

Originally Posted by Pa Pa

Comparing us to monies is despicable, JW almost as bad. The lies you should mention is over the murderers Luther and Calvin. You know the father of the Protestant movement and the father of the reformation of the same.

The horror is that those who follow Calvin and believe his lies and think they are chosen while others are condemned to hell..just cause. Will someday met that God and discover their sin have destroyed all hope of heaven. If you are a Calvinist then you believe that babies who were not saved from the beginning are worthy of hell. If this doctrine is true and the child I lost is bound for hell...then God is more deserving of hell than any other.

Calvinists do not believe that babies go to Hell, but that they are among the Elect according to God's foreknowledge. If you had actually studied Reformed beliefs instead of parotting all the nonsense that comes out of Mormondom, you would know that. And there are different types of Reformed theology as well, you can't stereotype it as you do. As far as saying God is deserving of Hell, if I was you I'd get on my knees big time and repent of such a really horrible, antichrist, statement! How could you say such a thing about your Creator? *** said that even if God slayed him, He would still believe in Him.

*** 13:15: Though he slay me, I will hope in him;

My little nephew laid in a coma for two years after being hit by a car and died at age 8. Do I blame God? Of course not. God was with us through that whole trial and brought good from that evil.

Repent of what you said about God, and come to Christ as your Savior.

[Apologette]

Originally Posted by Erundur

My defense of my faith is exposing the fact that you guys can't back up your claims, and therefore your attacks are without merit. It's very effective.

Well, Richard, all you do is moan and groan and say that facts aren't true. You do it here and at CARM. You never post anything of merit - just ad homs and more ad homs. You don't defend Mormonism, because bottom line is, it's not defensible.

[Apologette]

Originally Posted by James Banta

Yes you are right you got me.. BUT did these accounts ever get the number of persons Paul had seen wrong? Was the Father there even though Paul said that he had seen Jesus never mentioning the Father? But then Paul never said later that the father was there did he.. Paul's witness was consistent in the Person he saw and the message that was given.. Every time it was only Jesus, and every time it was a call to take the Gospel to the world.. Yes there are some difference between the accounts but nothing like Smith invented in the retelling of his experience..

Again was Paul the author of the retelling of his vision of Jesus on the road to Damascus? No! Did he leave two widely differing accounts of him experience or was it given as inspiration to Doctor Luke? yes the good doctor told the story in differing wording but did it have the same meaning without changing who the condemnation for sin was directed as Smith did. can't you see in the 1832 version that the world is being judged and in the PofPG version it has been changed to a condemnation of the Church? Read it and see for yourself.. I have posted both copies on this tread go read them..



Even through I provided the text you can't see it. Hummmm, That doesn't help me respect you much more than I ever have.. Here is the sections I find to be in conflict.

while in the at***ude of calling upon the Lord in the 16th year of my age a piller of fire light above the brightness of the sun at noon day come down from above and rested upon me and I was filled with the spirit of god and the Lord opened the heavens upon me and I saw the Lord and he spake unto me saying Joseph my son thy sins are forgiven thee. go thy way walk in my statutes and keep my commandments behold I am the Lord of glory I was crucifyed for the world that all those who believe on my name may have Eternal life behold the world lieth in Sin and at this time and none doeth good no not one they have turned ***ide from the gospel and keep not my commandments they draw near to me with their lips while their hearts are far from me and mine anger is kindling against the inhabitants of the earth to visit them acording to th[e]ir ungodliness and to bring to p*** that which hath been spoken by the mouth of the prophets and Ap[o]stles behold and lo I come quickly as it [is] written of me in the cloud clothed in the glory of my Father and my soul was filled with love and for many days I could rejoice with great Joy and the Lord was with me but [I] could find none that would believe the hevnly vision nevertheless I pondered these things in my heart (http://en.fairmormon.org/Primary_sou..._accounts/1832)

And in the PofPG version it says:

It no sooner appeared than I found myself delivered from the enemy which held me bound. When the light rested upon me I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other—This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him! My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong)—and which I should join. I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: “they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.” He again forbade me to join with any of them; and many other things did he say unto me, which I cannot write at this time. When I came to myself again, I found myself lying on my back, looking up into heaven. When the light had departed, I had no strength; but soon recovering in some degree, I went home. And as I leaned up to the fireplace, mother inquired what the matter was. I replied, “Never mind, all is well—I am well enough off.” (PofPG JSH)

The added information from one to the other I don't question that indeed could be like the differing accounts of Paul's vision but these things that are clearly in conflict those I point to.. It was clearly an evolving story. And invention not an actual event..



Paul didn't say the Father was there either.. No one believes that Paul saw the Father and the Son, It was Jesus that appeared to Paul and by saying the "I saw the Lord" Smith was claiming the same thing not that the Father was included.. It is no harder nor does it take more time to write "the heavens upon me and I saw the Lord" Than it does to write "When the light rested upon me[B] I saw two Personages".. You are making excuses for the inconsistencies you have no real explanation..



It doesn't say I was there either maybe by Smith's lack of saying I was there that I was standing right there along side Jesus.. Is that reasonable? No? Neither is it reasonable that Smith ever saw the Invisible God (Col 1:15).. The story of the first vision as is written in the PofPG was an evolved story which Smith made up as he grew his doctrines that became the LDS church.. IHS jim

dberrie is a troll who likes to use the Bible, and then attack the same Bible when convenient. While Paul's various accounts may appear to be contradictory, they can be reconciled:

http://www.harvardhouse.com/saulofta...ction_acts.htm

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Apologette

[B][SIZE=3]dberrie is a troll who likes to use the Bible, and then attack the same Bible when convenient.

Perhaps you can give us an example of where I have attacked the Bible?

Catherine--where is your Bible?


Matthew 15:8-9--King James Version (KJV)

8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.

9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.