The Vatican and Darwin

[TRiG]

Originally Posted by asdf

I do see what you're getting at. Allow me to answer your question with a question of my own: if the reality of creation itself cannot be trusted as presented, if the creator deceptively lined up all the evidence to point to evolution by natural selection, if the universe only appears to be billions upon billions of years old, etc. - but this creator desires [his] followers to believe something contrary to all this evidence - can we rely on God [himself]?

Exactly. If God (or Loki) is a trickster, why should the Bible too not be a trick? If we can't trust the world around us, who should we trust?

TRiG.

[disciple]

Greetings Asdf,
You said,
<I do see what you're getting at. Allow me to answer your question with a question of my own: if the reality of creation itself cannot be trusted as presented, if the creator deceptively lined up all the evidence to point to evolution by natural selection, if the universe only appears to be billions upon billions of years old, etc. - but this creator desires [his] followers to believe something contrary to all this evidence - can we rely on God [himself]?>

If you and I believe God really is who He revealed Himself to be in the Bible, then your question is answered. Our God could not be deceptive in anything, that is why I believe the creation account in Genesis to be correct. God desires His followers to walk by faith not by sight for what appears to be "evidence", especially if conceived in the hearts and minds of men, can lead to deception. So is God against science? Absolutely not, since He ins***uted all the laws that men take so much joy in discovering and investigating. Does He condemn the one who says,"I have a hard time believing what is in the Bible"? No, He welcomes questions and searchers and says in the scriptures, "Come let us reason together" about sin or grace or redemption or the theory of evolution. Jesus said, "whoever comes to me I will never turn away", that includes those who believe all the Bible is true as well as those who struggle with belief. Those who refuse to believe or reason with God are in a different catagory since they are putting all their trust in themselves or other men.
It really comes down to this, God is trustworthy or He is not, I believe He is.
If I have to choose between what God says by faith alone or what man says even with what seems to be reasonable evidence, I will choose God. If I can trust Him with my eternal life I can trust whatever He says. Of course this does not make me better than anyone else or put me in a position to judge but it sure gives me joy and peace. Thanks.

[asdf]

Originally Posted by disciple

If you and I believe God really is who He revealed Himself to be in the Bible, then your question is answered. Our God could not be deceptive in anything, that is why I believe the creation account in Genesis to be correct.

I agree that the God I know, love and worship is not and cannot be deceptive. That is why I believe that God's creation itself can be trusted, and that humans can make meaningful observations thereof.

I've started writing a longer reply to this concept, but I believe it probably should go in its own thread. Look for it soon.

God desires His followers to walk by faith not by sight for what appears to be "evidence", especially if conceived in the hearts and minds of men, can lead to deception.

As I said before, faith is belief without evidence, not self-deception in the face of contrary evidence.

So is God against science? Absolutely not, since He ins***uted all the laws that men take so much joy in discovering and investigating.

I agree

Does He condemn the one who says,"I have a hard time believing what is in the Bible"? No, He welcomes questions and searchers and says in the scriptures, "Come let us reason together" about sin or grace or redemption or the theory of evolution. Jesus said, "whoever comes to me I will never turn away", that includes those who believe all the Bible is true as well as those who struggle with belief.

I appreciate you saying that - I think it's a major problem that some sectors of the church seem to be pushing out those who attempt to reconcile science with their faith. I'm happy that you can see the bigger picture for those to whom intellectual honesty requires them to accept scientific opinion even if it conflicts with a certain interpretation of the scriptures.

Those who refuse to believe or reason with God are in a different catagory since they are putting all their trust in themselves or other men.
It really comes down to this, God is trustworthy or He is not, I believe He is.

I think I understand what you're saying. It's like Moses, or ***, or David - lamenting about God's seeming cruelty and indifference in the face of grave injustice, arguing with God, etc. - what's striking to me about these p***ages is that God is not threatened by such challenges. God does not smite them for daring to question [him]. (Quite the opposite, in fact, in many cases.)

If I have to choose between what God says by faith alone or what man says even with what seems to be reasonable evidence, I will choose God.

I understand that. But with the Bible, we're always dealing with an interpretation that necessarily chooses to take some p***ages more "literally" than others.

If I can trust Him with my eternal life I can trust whatever He says. Of course this does not make me better than anyone else or put me in a position to judge but it sure gives me joy and peace. Thanks.

Blessings

[asdf]

Originally Posted by asdf

I agree that the God I know, love and worship is not and cannot be deceptive. That is why I believe that God's creation itself can be trusted, and that humans can make meaningful observations thereof.

I've started writing a longer reply to this concept, but I believe it probably should go in its own thread. Look for it soon.

The Book of Nature