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Thread: Born spiritually dead

  1. #1
    dberrie2000
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    Default Born spiritually dead

    Originally Posted by Apologette View Post ---The Scripture clearly says that in Adam ALL MEN DIED. Obviously, then, those who are born are spirtually dead

    dberrie----That is not a reference to the spiritual death--but the physical:


    1 Corinthians 15:22---King James Version (KJV)


    22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

    Comments?

  2. #2
    James Banta
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    dberrie----That is not a reference to the spiritual death--but the physical:


    1 Corinthians 15:22---King James Version (KJV)


    22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

    Comments?
    You can't see that this is refers to both spiritual and physical life and death? IHS jim

  3. #3
    dberrie2000
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    Originally Posted by Apologette View Post ---The Scripture clearly says that in Adam ALL MEN DIED. Obviously, then, those who are born are spirtually dead
    Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post----That is not a reference to the spiritual death--but the physical:


    1 Corinthians 15:22---King James Version (KJV)


    22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

    Comments?
    Quote Originally Posted by James Banta View Post
    You can't see that this is refers to both spiritual and physical life and death? IHS jim
    No. All will not be made alive in Christ spiritually. But all will be made alive physically through Christ's resurrection. The 15th chapter of 1Cor was speaking specifically about the resurrection.

  4. #4
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    Born spiritually dead
    Do you believe people are born spiritually alive then die spiritually then are born again?

  5. #5
    nrajeffreturns
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    Do you believe people are born spiritually alive then die spiritually then are born again?
    Why would God cause the entire human race to be born spiritually dead, when He is able to prevent that from happening?
    Did God create Adam and Eve in a state of spiritual death? Or did He allow them to choose life or death at some point AFTER their creation? Why wouldn't He do the same for each of us?

  6. #6
    dberrie2000
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    Do you believe people are born spiritually alive then die spiritually then are born again?
    No, Billyray--I believe that all are born alive in Christ through His Atonement--where He Redeemed all of mankind. And one remains under that Atoning Blood until one answers for their own sins--and one must be born again through the water and Spirit in order to obtain the remission of sins and being born again.

  7. #7
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    No, Billyray--I believe that all are born alive in Christ through His Atonement--where He Redeemed all of mankind. And one remains under that Atoning Blood until one answers for their own sins--and one must be born again through the water and Spirit in order to obtain the remission of sins and being born again.
    This doesn't make sense. A person is spiritually alive but must be born again to remain spiritually alive?

  8. #8
    dberrie2000
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    Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post----No, Billyray--I believe that all are born alive in Christ through His Atonement--where He Redeemed all of mankind. And one remains under that Atoning Blood until one answers for their own sins--and one must be born again through the water and Spirit in order to obtain the remission of sins and being born again.
    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    This doesn't make sense. A person is spiritually alive but must be born again to remain spiritually alive?
    Well, it most certainly does--if one believes in personal accountability for our own choices. There reaches a point where we are held accountable for our choices--and when we sin in accountability--there has to be some way to reconcile us back to God--and that is through the gospel of repentance and water baptism for the remission of sins--the born again process.

  9. #9
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    Well, it most certainly does--if one believes in personal accountability for our own choices. There reaches a point where we are held accountable for our choices--and when we sin in accountability--there has to be some way to reconcile us back to God--and that is through the gospel of repentance and water baptism for the remission of sins--the born again process.
    So a person is born spiritually alive then that person spiritually dies then that person is required to be born again spiritually. Is that your position?

  10. #10
    dberrie2000
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    Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---Well, it most certainly does--if one believes in personal accountability for our own choices. There reaches a point where we are held accountable for our choices--and when we sin in accountability--there has to be some way to reconcile us back to God--and that is through the gospel of repentance and water baptism for the remission of sins--the born again process.
    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    So a person is born spiritually alive then that person spiritually dies then that person is required to be born again spiritually. Is that your position?
    Any person who refuses to repent and be baptized for the remission of sins after accountability--cannot enter into heaven. That is the position of the Bible--and all the Early Church Fathers--every last one of them--including Martin Luther.
    Last edited by dberrie2000; 04-10-2013 at 07:04 AM.

  11. #11
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    Any person who refuses to repent and be baptized for the remission of sins after accountability--cannot not enter into heaven.
    A person is spiritually alive from birth to age 8

    That person spiritually dies on his 8th birthday

    Then that person needs to be baptized so that he can be spiritually alive again.


    Does this really make any sense at all to you? And can you support this nutty belief from the Bible?

  12. #12
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    That is the position of the Bible--and all the Early Church Fathers--every last one of them--including Martin Luther.
    The Bible teaches that a person is saved when he is converted which means that he turns from his old ways (repentance) and turns to Christ (places his faith in Christ to save him).

    The Bible does not teach that works contribute for salvation.

  13. #13
    nrajeffreturns
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    The Bible teaches that a person is saved when he is converted which means that he turns from his old ways (repentance) and turns to Christ (places his faith in Christ to save him).

    The Bible does not teach that works contribute for salvation.
    The Bible teaches that obedience to Christ's commandments is essential to getting eternal life. It is impossible to find a loophole around this requirement, no matter how hard you are trying to find one.

  14. #14
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns View Post
    The Bible teaches that obedience to Christ's commandments is essential to getting eternal life.
    How can you say that obedience is essential to eternal life when we ALL sin?

  15. #15
    dberrie2000
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    A person is spiritually alive from birth to age 8
    All babies are born saved--due to the Atonement of Jesus Christ. The condemnation due to the Fall is absolved from mankind. When one reaches accountability--whatever age that might be--and if they reach it at all--one becomes accountable for their own choices--and is commanded to repent and be baptized for the remission of sins, and receive the Holy Ghost(being born of water and of the Spirit--born again). Without that--one cannot enter into the kingdom of God--as the scriptures state.

    That person spiritually dies on his 8th birthday
    I don't find that anywhere in the scriptures. One is commanded to repent and be baptized for the remission of sins--but I don't see anywhere in the scriptures where it states one dies spiritually on their 8th birthday.

    Then that person needs to be baptized so that he can be spiritually alive again.
    One needs to repent and be baptized and receive the Spirit in order to be born again. That is essential to eternal life, as the scriptures state.

    Does this really make any sense at all to you? And can you support this nutty belief from the Bible?
    I don't believe God's commands are nutty at all--and His commands do make sense to me. They are easy to understand. Calling God's commands nutty is just another slant the faith alone have to inject to justify their theology. But the LDS are grateful for His commands--and feel it a privilege for the opportunity to obey God.
    Last edited by dberrie2000; 04-11-2013 at 03:35 AM.

  16. #16
    nrajeffreturns
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    How can you say that obedience is essential to eternal life when we ALL sin?
    Easy: One of the commandments is to repent of our sins. If we obey that commandment to repent, we are forgiven, thanks to Christ and His Atonement.

    So LDS doctrine is that Christ is the basis of salvation. Without Him, we'd have no atonement and thus no chance of being saved from sins that we commit. By obeying His commandments, including the commandment to repent when we fail to obey His other commandments, we have His promise of salvation. That promise is something we can depend on, because Christ never breaks His promises.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns View Post
    Easy: One of the commandments is to repent of our sins. If we obey that commandment to repent, we are forgiven, thanks to Christ and His Atonement.

    That would include repenting from following a pedophile, an evil false prophet! Read the Old Testament to see how God dealt with those who follow false prophets.

    So LDS doctrine is that Christ is the basis of salvation. Without Him, we'd have no atonement and thus no chance of being saved from sins that we commit. By obeying His commandments, including the commandment to repent when we fail to obey His other commandments, we have His promise of salvation. That promise is something we can depend on, because Christ never breaks His promises.
    But if you have the wrong Christ (as Mormons do), you might as well be believing in Buddha! Jesus is not your equal, He is God! He is not Lucifer's brother, He created Lucifer. He is not some sexually procreated spirit by a polygamous god and one of his wives - He is eternally God, without beginning or end, and always was God.
    Oath formerly taken by Mormons promising not to reveal secret Mormon temple rituals: "Should we do so, we agree to have our breasts cut open and our hearts and vitals torn from our bodies and given to the birds of the air and the beasts of the field."

  18. #18
    nrajeffreturns
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    Quote Originally Posted by Apologette View Post
    [B]But if you have the wrong Christ (as Mormons do), you might as well be believing in Buddha!
    If having some INCORRECT beliefs about Jesus (such as that He's literally just one-third of a 3-person being) means you have the wrong Jesus and therefore can't be saved, then y'all Trinitarians are in for a 'hot' time in the hereafter!

    Jesus is not your equal, He is God!
    Who's been feeding you the lie that I believe Jesus IS my equal? And why were you credulous enough to believe that person? News flash: Jesus never sinned! Jesus is the only way salvation is possible! You really think I believe such things about myself? WAKE UP!

  19. #19
    dberrie2000
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    Quote Originally Posted by Apologette View Post
    But if you have the wrong Christ (as Mormons do), you might as well be believing in Buddha! Jesus is not your equal, He is God! He is not Lucifer's brother, He created Lucifer. He is not some sexually procreated spirit by a polygamous god and one of his wives - He is eternally God, without beginning or end, and always was God.
    Apologette--the scriptures do not ***ign Christ as the Father of satan or any other spirit--that paternal connection is given to God the Father alone. Even Jesus Christ conceded to the fact He had a God and Father--and it was the same God and Father as mankind's, as to the spirit:


    John 20:17---King James Version (KJV)


    17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.


  20. #20
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    Apologette--the scriptures do not ***ign Christ as the Father of satan or any other spirit-
    Colossians 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

  21. #21
    dberrie2000
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    Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---Apologette--the scriptures do not ***ign Christ as the Father of satan or any other spirit-
    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    Colossians 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
    Billyary--that would have to include God the Father also--as He is in heaven--right? Obviously--"things" do not include spirits. As the scriptures state:


    John 1:1-5----King James Version (KJV)


    1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

    2 The same was in the beginning with God.

    3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.


    I believe the scriptures speak a truth here--and qualifies what Christ made--- that was made.


    The scriptures do not have the offspring of God "made"--they have them Fathered:


    Hebrews 12:9---King James Version (KJV)


    9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

    That is the reason we address God the Father as "our Father who are in heaven"....


    Now--to the point--your implied thought--that Christ made spirits--- cannot fly because of at least one simple declaration:


    John 20:17----King James Version (KJV)


    17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.


    Could you explain for us how Christ could have made all spirits--when He Himself conceded the fact that God the Father was not only the God and Father of His Spirit--but also those of mankind ?

    BTW--Father is a paternal connection--not a mechanical one.

  22. #22
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    Could you explain for us how Christ could have made all spirits--
    Colossians 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

  23. #23
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    Hebrews 12:9---King James Version (KJV)


    9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

    That is the reason we address God the Father as "our Father who are in heaven"....
    Hebrews 12
    5*And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:

    6*For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

  24. #24
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    BTW--Father is a paternal connection--not a mechanical one.
    Zechariah 12:1 The Lord, who stretches out the heavens, who lays the foundation of the earth, and who forms the human spirit within a person, declares:

    LDS Bible Dictionary
    Jehovah
    The covenant or proper name of the God of Israel. It denotes the “Unchangeable One,” “the eternal I AM” (Ex. 6:3; Ps. 83:18; Isa. 12:2; 26:4). The original pronunciation of this name has possibly been lost, as the Jews, in reading, never mentioned it but subs***uted one of the other names of God, usually Adonai. Probably it was pronounced Jahveh, or Yahveh. In the KJV, the Jewish custom has been followed, and the name is generally denoted by Lord or God, printed in small capitals.

  25. #25
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns View Post
    Why would God cause the entire human race to be born spiritually dead, when He is able to prevent that from happening?
    Did God create Adam and Eve in a state of spiritual death? Or did He allow them to choose life or death at some point AFTER their creation? Why wouldn't He do the same for each of us?
    Ephesians 2
    1 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins,
    2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient.
    3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath.
    4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy,
    5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved.

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