Joseph smith was the only witness to the bom

[Christian]

Nobody else ever even peeked at the CONTENT of that book but joe smith. smith was the only one who could 'testify' that the content of the book of mormon was anything OTHER THAN FICTION. And of course like most of his stuff, nobody could 'check' him. He and he alone made up the mormon religion.

Agree or disagree? Comments?

in the Name of Jesus Christ,
morefish

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Christian

Nobody else ever even peeked at the CONTENT of that book but joe smith. smith was the only one who could 'testify' that the content of the book of mormon was anything OTHER THAN FICTION. And of course like most of his stuff, nobody could 'check' him. He and he alone made up the mormon religion.

Agree or disagree? Comments?

in the Name of Jesus Christ,
morefish

Wow does that ever ring as the truth.. Smith's mother noted Joseph's storytelling ability and interest in the Indians. She wrote

"During our evening conversations, Joseph would occasionally give us some of the most amusing recitals that could be imagined. He would describe the ancient inhabitants of this continent, their dress, mode of travelling, and the animals upon which they rode; their cities, their buildings, with every particular; their mode of warfare; and also their religious worship. This he would do with as much ease, seemingly, as if he had spent his whole life with them." (Lucy Smith, Biographical Sketches, p. 85).. That's right he was formulating the story long before he was given Golden plates. It is clear that the whole of the BofM was more imagination and less inspiration than anything ever taught by a Christian teacher.. IHS jim

[Erundur]

Originally Posted by Christian

Nobody else ever even peeked at the CONTENT of that book but joe smith.

Actually, millions have not only peeked at the content, but studied it carefully.

smith was the only one who could 'testify' that the content of the book of mormon was anything OTHER THAN FICTION.

Actually, millions can and do testify of its truthfulness.

And of course like most of his stuff, nobody could 'check' him.

Actually, millions have 'checked' him, and received independent confirmation from the Holy Spirit.

[Christian]

erunder posted:
Actually, millions have not only peeked at the content, but studied it carefully.

Not in the original plates (if any such plates really existed).

Actually, millions can and do testify of its truthfulness.

We are all aware of the inflated numbers of the mormons. A close friend of mine left the mormon church, a few years later became an ELDER in a LUTHERAN CHURCH, was an elder in the Lutheran church for 14 years before the mormon religion sent him a letter telling him he was no longer a member. That was over 17 YEARS after he had left. When he left he asked that his name be reoved from the roles. It took SEVENTEEN YEARS before they got that done!

And of course NOT ONE OF THOSE SUPPOSED 'millions' can HONESTLY TESTIFY that the bom depicts anything OTHER THAN THE FANTASY STORY-TELLING OF JOE SMITH.

Actually, millions have 'checked' him, and received independent confirmation from the Holy Spirit.

Perhaps of SOME spirit, but the Holy Spirit of GOD has shown us CHRISTIANS the contradictions between joey smith's writings and the BIBLE (which IS from God).

I can personally testify that your book is phoney and NOT OF GOD.

In the Name of the BIBLICAL Jesus Christ (not the demon-spirit-brother-of-satan-'jesus' of mormonism),
morefish

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Erundur

Actually, millions have 'checked' him, and received independent confirmation from the Holy Spirit.

Calling an emotional experience a confirmation from God the Holy Spirit is a reach.. When Jesus walked with the disciples after the resurrection, did He not teach them from the scriptures? He didn't pull out some new wild eyed teaching and ask them to believe that. No the same scriptures that was given through the prophet Moses was opened to them.. If you can't see truth in the Bible and need garbage like the BofM, the D&C, and the PofPG you will never have a real confirmation from Holy Spirit on anything. Such a confirmation can only come through the scriptures, THE BIBLE.. That is the pattern established in the Luke 24:32.. It is a pattern that mormonism rejects by twisting what is taught to their own purposes. Only in having the SCRIPTURES opened to them was there a spiritual confirmation from God.. You can take your Chubby Checkers approach to spiritual confirmation and use it on those so spiritually dead that all they can base discernment on it what seem right to a man (Proverbs 14:12).. IHS jim

[Erundur]

Originally Posted by Christian

Not in the original plates (if any such plates really existed).

Okay, if you want to move the goal posts and talk about the original plates, then at least twelve people saw them.

And of course NOT ONE OF THOSE SUPPOSED 'millions' can HONESTLY TESTIFY that the bom depicts anything OTHER THAN THE FANTASY STORY-TELLING OF JOE SMITH.
...
Perhaps of SOME spirit, but the Holy Spirit of GOD has shown us CHRISTIANS the contradictions between joey smith's writings and the BIBLE (which IS from God).

Worthless anti-Mormon RHETORIC.

[Erundur]

Originally Posted by James Banta

Calling an emotional experience a confirmation from God the Holy Spirit is a reach..

Then stop doing it.

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Erundur

Then stop doing it.

I did over 30 years ago.. When will you stop it? IHS jim

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Erundur

Okay, if you want to move the goal posts and talk about the original plates, then at least twelve people saw them.


Worthless anti-Mormon RHETORIC.

A person must remember that it wasn't the witnesses that wrote the testimony they signed That was all penned by Smith and under pressure was signed by the witnesses.. Other "prophets" did the same thing in support of their "spiritual gifts".

The Strangite witnesses bore their testimony.[1] In a manner clearly intended to replicate the Three and the Eight Witnesses to the Book of Mormon, J. J. Strang produced four witnesses who testified that they themselves had dug the Voree Plates from the ground where he said that they would be discovered. Their detailed written testimony was used by Strang in the Voree Herald, January 1846; Zion's Reveille, 1 April 1847; and Gospel Herald, 4 May 1848 (http://en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Mor...gite_parallels)

A full copy of their witness is given on that same web sit..

Strang had a total of seven witnesses to his "prophetic work" they were Samuel Graham, Samuel P. Bacon, Warren Post, Phineas Wright, Albert N. Hosmer, Ebenezer Page and Jehiel Savage. While I have seen accusations that some of these men denied their testimony no real proof that was ever offered that any one of them denied their testimony.. Sound familiar? IHS jim

[Erundur]

Originally Posted by James Banta

When will you stop it?

Perhaps you can show where I've ever done that. No, of course you can't, this is just a distraction to divert attention from the fact that the OP has been proven wrong.

[Erundur]

Originally Posted by James Banta

A person must remember that it wasn't the witnesses that wrote the testimony they signed

A person must remember that regardless of who wrote the statement, they all signed it and stood by their testimony even when they had nothing to lose and everything to gain by denying it.

[RealFakeHair]

The first rule in the book of magician is to never let the audience see how you perform your trick.
Remember LDSinc. T.B.M.s the Wizard of Oz hid behind the curtain.
Joseph Smith jr. Also a wizard hid behind a curtain.

[neverending]

Originally Posted by Erundur

Actually, millions have not only peeked at the content, but studied it carefully.


Actually, millions can and do testify of its truthfulness.


Actually, millions have 'checked' him, and received independent confirmation from the Holy Spirit.

And millions have been deceived. The 11 witnesses who signed their names to the BoM ALL later left the church and joined other denominations. Why would they do that if what they witnessed were true? Even J. Smith ended up calling the witnesses, liars etc. Seems those men realized that what they were doing was wrong. Have you ever thought that Satan and his minions can fool people causing them to feel things that are wrong? Isn't it Satan's *** to keep people from God? Who is right? I know without a doubt that the Holy Spirit spoke to me while I was in one of your temples being married. Why would the Holy Spirit tell me to get up, leave, you do not belong here? Is it a good idea to follow feelings?

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Erundur

A person must remember that regardless of who wrote the statement, they all signed it and stood by their testimony even when they had nothing to lose and everything to gain by denying it.

Just like the witnesses to James Strang did. Because of that was his work truthful? After all his followers also had a witness they believed was from God the Holy Spirit.. Instead of looking for an outside witness why not look to the scripture like Jesus did as he taught the men along the road after the resurrection (Luke 24:32)? Stop looking for something New and set your sights on Jesus and the scriptures for the truth.. IHS jim

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Erundur

Perhaps you can show where I've ever done that. No, of course you can't, this is just a distraction to divert attention from the fact that the OP has been proven wrong.

Has it now? Did you show that Smith saw the Father according to the 1832 version of the first vision? In that version didn't Jesus introduce Himself? Was it the world that Jesus condemned in that version or was it the Christian Church? Was there anyone besides Smith present in either of those testimonies that could add their witness to Smith's? I guess then the OP stands.. Joseph Smith is the ONLY witness that mormonism is of God.. Do you remember this statement from Joseph Fielding Smith?

Mormonism, as it is called, must stand or fall on the story of Joseph Smith. He was either a prophet of God, divinely called, properly appointed and commissioned, or he was one of the biggest frauds this world has ever seen. There is no middle ground. (Doctrines of Salvation: Sermons and Writings of Joseph Fielding Smith, Bookcraft, 1954, vol. 1, p. 188)

From this statement htat there is no middle ground and Smith's other testimonies of the First vision it looks like the OP is proven not debunked..

As far as looking for something from the Holy Spirit outside the scripture is a common trait of yours.. This this very exchange you said "Actually, millions have 'checked' him, and received independent confirmation from the Holy Spirit." Instead of looking for God's truth in His word you are saying that look for an independent confirmation from the Holy Spirit.. Never did Jesus teach independent confirmation of anything.. It was always through His word.. IHS jim

[Erundur]

Originally Posted by neverending

The 11 witnesses who signed their names to the BoM ALL later left the church and joined other denominations.

Now you know that's not true...don't you?

[neverending]

[QUOTE=Erundur;152155]Now you know that's not true.

Unfortunately, it is you who doesn't know the truth and you fail to ever show me where I am wrong. Easy to say, "your lying or that isn't true." It takes guts to actually look for evidence to prove that what I've posted is untrue. It would take you to do some research but I don't think you want to take the time. Please read this:

"After the Mormons were driven from Independence, Missouri, in the early 1830's, Smith instructed the church members not to sell their property with the hope that they could still reclaim the land. However, David Whitmer and Oliver Cowdery went against this edict. Kenneth Winn explained:
Cowdery was particularly nettled over the church's presuming to dictate how he used his property. . . . The dissenters' avowal that their individual freedom should take precedence over the judgment of church authorities made active conflict inevitable. Nor was it long in coming. In January [1838], against policy, William Phelps, Oliver Cowdery, and David Whitmer sold their land in Jackson County. . . . Accordingly, on April 12, the Missouri High Council charged David and John Whitmer, Oliver Cowdery, and Lyman Johnson with various counts of dereliction of duty, violation of church policy, and disrespect for the church leadership and cut them off from the church.
In Kirtland, Ohio, Joseph Smith and the leaders had become embroiled in land speculation, borrowing large amounts of money and starting their own bank.

Kirtland Bank Note

When the bank failed, the economy collapsed and the creditors started demanding payment, many lost faith in Joseph's prophetic leadership. Apostle George A. Smith related the following:
After the organization of the Twelve Apostles, the spirit of apostacy became more general. . . . One of the First Presidency, several of the Twelve Apostles, High Council, Presidents of Seventies, the witnesses of the Book of Mormon, Presidents of Far West, and a number of others standing high in the Church were all carried away in this apostacy . . .
While George A. Smith didn't specify the names of the witnesses, we know that Martin Harris, David Whitmer and Oliver Cowdery had all left the LDS Church by 1838. In fact, the LDS leaders published an attack on the character of Martin Harris in The Elders' Journal, a Mormon publication edited by Joseph Smith. The article charged that Harris and others were guilty of "swearing, lying, cheating, swindling, drinking, with every species of debauchery." Martin Harris, in turn, accused Joseph Smith of "lying and licentiousness."
In a letter dated December 16, 1838, Joseph Smith said that "John Whitmer, David Whitmer, Oliver Cowdery, and Martin Harris are too mean to mention. (History of the Church, vol. 3, p. 232.) Smith specifically singled out David Whitmer:
God suffered such kind of beings to afflict ***. . . . This poor man [William E. McLellin] who professes to be much of a prophet, has no other dumb *** to ride but David Whitmer, to forbid his madness when he goes up to curse Israel; and this *** not being of the same kind as Balaam's, . . . he brays out cursings instead of blessings. Poor ***!
Before driving the dissenters from Far West, Missouri, the Mormons wrote them a very threatening letter. In this letter the dissenters were accused of stealing, lying and counterfeiting:
Whereas the citizens of Caldwell county have borne with the abuse received from you at different times, . . . until it is no longer to be endured; . . . out of the county you shall go, . . . depart, depart, or a more fatal calamity shall befall you.
After Oliver Cowdery had been taken by a State warrant for stealing, and the stolen property found . . . in which nefarious transaction John Whitmer had also participated. Oliver Cowdery stole the property, conveyed it to John Whitmer . . . Oliver Cowdery, David Whitmer, and Lyman E. Johnson, united with a gang of counterfeiters, thieves, liars, and blacklegs of the deepest dye, to deceive, cheat, and defraud the saints out of their property. . . .
During the full career of Oliver Cowdery and David Whitmer's bogus money business, it got abroad into the world that they were engaged in it. . . . We have evidence of a very strong character that you are at this very time engaged with a gang of counterfeiters, coiners, and blacklegs, . . . we will put you from the county of Caldwell: so help us God.
The dissenters, fearing for their lives, fled Far West, leaving their families behind. Fawn Brodie tells of their hardship:
Upon receiving this ultimatum the two Whitmers, with Oliver Cowdery and Lyman Johnson, set out for Clay County to hire a gentile lawyer. When they returned from Liberty, they met their families on the road, bearing a tale of Danite [a secret Mormon vigilante group] persecution that the men could not believe possible as coming from their former brethren. The Danites had surrounded their homes, ordered their wives to pack their blankets and leave the county immediately, and threatened death to anyone who returned to Far West. They had been robbed, according to John Whitmer, of all their goods save bedding and clothes.

Writing in 1887, David Whitmer explained why he had left the church:
If you believe my testimony to the Book of Mormon; if you believe that God spake to us three witnesses by his own voice, then I tell you that in June, 1838, God spake to me again by his own voice from the heavens, and told me to "separate myself from among the Latter Day Saints, for as they sought to do unto me, so should it be done unto them."
In the spring of 1838, the heads of the church and many of the members had gone deep into error and blindness. . . . About the same time that I came out, the Spirit of God moved upon quite a number of the brethren who came out, with their families, all of the eight witnesses who were then living (except the three Smiths) came out; Peter and Christian Whitmer were dead. Oliver Cowdery came out also. Martin Harris was then in Ohio. The church went deeper and deeper into wickedness." "David Whitmer, An Address to All Believers in Christ (Richmond, Missouri, 1887), pp. 27-28."

I am sorry but this is the truth of it. It would be good for you to read your own Church History.

[Erundur]

Originally Posted by neverending

Unfortunately, it is you who doesn't know the truth

Then educate me. When did Joseph Smith, Sr. leave the church and which denomination did he join?

[neverending]

Originally Posted by Erundur

Then educate me. When did Joseph Smith, Sr. leave the church and which denomination did he join?

I can see that you didn't read all that I posted. If you had you would have read that the 3 Smith's were the ONLY ones who didn't leave the church. It should bother you that the 3 main witnesses, and the final 8 ALL left the church. Men who testified to the truth of the BoM, men who said they held the plates and saw an angel. It should bother you how quickly Smith turned against these men who were once his friends. If you want to continue believing in lies, that is up to you.

[Erundur]

Originally Posted by James Banta

Has it now?

It has, since you guys have been unable to support your position.

Did you show that Smith saw the Father according to the 1832 version of the first vision?

This thread isn't about the first vision. When I said the OP has been proven wrong, I was referring to the OP of this thread.

[Erundur]

Originally Posted by neverending

I can see that you didn't read all that I posted.

This is what I read:

Originally Posted by neverending

The 11 witnesses who signed their names to the BoM ALL later left the church and joined other denominations.

Is this statement true or false?

BTW, I tend not to read long, off-topic sermons.

[James Banta]

[Erundur;152166]It has, since you guys have been unable to support your position.

Was Smith the only one in the grove that saw God? That is a testimony of one.. Did anyone besides Smith read the plates and see that the translation was accurate? The answer to both is NO... Smith then is the only witness to the BofM.. No one else beside Smith was given a translation.. That is unbiblical where by the testimony or 2 or three all truth is established (2 Corinthians 13:1).. By being the only witness of the BofM Smith ignored that p***age. He wasn't the last time he would ignore the teachings of the Bible in his teachings..

This thread isn't about the first vision. When I said the OP has been proven wrong, I was referring to the OP of this thread.

Both are the same neither one has the required Biblical witness.. You can point to Paul but was he teaching something other than what the Church had already been taught? NO! So His vision was to bring Him to Jesus. To point out that he was persecuting Him by his persecution of the Church and not to get a commission to give the Church a new birth.. IHS jim

[Erundur]

Originally Posted by James Banta

Smith then is the only witness to the BofM..

That's false. At least eleven others saw the plates.

[RealFakeHair]

Originally Posted by Erundur

That's false. At least eleven others saw the plates.

Overview of Critics' positionThe witnesses, by their own admission, seemed to have only seen the angel and plates in a 'visionary state' in their minds as Joseph suggested to them and not really with their natural eyes as members are taught. Why would real, metal plates need to be seen in a vision or with 'spiritual eyes' as many of the witnesses later testified?

Critics also point out several issues that call into question the witnesses' reliability and trustworthiness. For example, all the witnesses had close ties to Joseph and his family. Martin Harris, had a substantial financial stake in the success of the Book of Mormon. Moreover, in the upcoming years, many of the witnesses ended up leaving the church and following other leaders and religions. By 1847, not one of the surviving eleven witnesses was part of the LDS Church. If they believed

[neverending]

Originally Posted by Erundur

This is what I read:


Is this statement true or false?

BTW, I tend not to read long, off-topic sermons.

That is unfortunate and tells me that you don't listen during sacrament meetings either. And how was what I posted, off-topic? Many have been talking about the witnesses.
My statement stands for it is a known fact that the witnesses to your BoM other then JS's father and his two brothers ALL left the church. Men who were once close friends of JS became his enemies within a heart beat. JS calling them all kinds of filthy names. So, if these men truly had seen the plates then today their testimonies mean nothing. Martin Harris had the most to lose since he was counting on the BoM to sell many copies which would make him rich....we know that didn't happen. If people are going to take the time to comment here, it is only right and decent if people read what has been posted. If you have no desire to read and to find the truth, then I say, you don't belong here. You have never offered ANYTHING of value to this site. Not one scripture verse to defend Mormonism. Only that anything I've posted or James, or Apologette or Real Fake Hair is false or we are liars. How easy to scream these things but not defend anything. I am tired of your whining.