Joseph smith was the only witness to the bom

[RealFakeHair]

Last night on one of the TV channels there was a progam on who discovered America before Columbus?
There were the Vikings, Irish, polynesias, lost trib of Israel, and then came to book of mormon. The part about the Book of Mormon part of the progam lasted about 10 seconds. Why? Because there is no there there.

[James Banta]

[Erundur;152285]And they knew the translation was true because the voice of God told them.

They knew the translation was correct because Joseph Smith told them it was correct and if they ask God he would give them that ***urance. They felt it was correct, they believed it was correct. They had no knowledge that it was correct..

What are you talking about? The plates were testified as being seen by eleven others, and people have certainly said that, contrary to your ***ertion.

In this discussion I am not going to question whether the plates were real or not.. I am saying that no one other than Smith translated or could translate a word of the text of the BofM.. So when I asked "what parts of the BofM did Martin Harris translate? Maybe he retranslated a portion that Smith had already completed showing a concurrence with Smith's work? I can tell you that He nor any of the other witnesses were ever given a word of the translation through anything that the LDS might call a Urim and Thummim.." I was not questioning whether anyone saw them but the translation of the plates.. There were and still are many scholars that can translate the original languages that both the Old and New Testaments of the Bible are written in. But in spite of ***urances from Dr Nibley, of BYU, no one in the world has ever been able to translate a word of the sample of the writings that Smith was said to have sent to Dr Anthon. Dr Nibley, who is thought to be one of the LDS church's greatest anthropologists said that the characters were decipherable. (The Provo Herald, May 1, 1980). Later that month Dr Nibley again insisted that "I still say just what I said before. It can be translated.". We all know now that the find of the Anthon paper was a fraud. A fraud that fooled even the best scholars that the LDS church has.. To say the least not one character of any of the "reformed Egyptian" Smith said the BofM was derived has been translated by anyone other then Smith is a clear falsehood.. To say that anyone besides Smith ever made such a translation is a lie..

Is that what you would have told the first century saints regarding the books of the New Testament?

Is any part of the Bible the work of one man? Even the Children of Israel heard God speak to them from Sinai. Seventy of the Elders of the people accompanied Moses up onto the mountain where God made it clear to them that Moses had been called as the Lord's prophet. Did God ever do such a thing for Smith? Did Jesus ever appear to any of the elders of mormonism and make it clear Smith had been called to be His prophet? Has any of the BofM's original language ever been translated by anyone but Smith? NO! It is a one man show.. A secret and Jesus told us that in secret He does nothing (John 18:20).

Then give me the date when it will no longer be new and I can start believing it.

As long as it teaches a different Gospel, A gospel of grace available to mankind only after they have done all they can do, it will never be believable.

And because my words shall hiss forth—many of the Gentiles shall say: A Bible! A Bible! We have got a Bible, and there cannot be any more Bible.
...
"Wherefore murmur ye, because that ye shall receive more of my word? Know ye not that the testimony of two nations is a witness unto you that I am God, that I remember one nation like unto another? Wherefore, I speak the same words unto one nation like unto another. And when the two nations shall run together the testimony of the two nations shall run together also.
"
"And I do this that I may prove unto many that I am the same yesterday, today, and forever; and that I speak forth my words according to mine own pleasure. And because that I have spoken one word ye need not suppose that I cannot speak another; for my work is not yet finished; neither shall it be until the end of man, neither from that time henceforth and forever.

"Wherefore, because that ye have a Bible ye need not suppose that it contains all my words; neither need ye suppose that I have not caused more to be written."

And why did Smith make such a proclamation? Because that was the reception that his stories were receiving from the people that had heard his wild tales for all the years they had known him. Most of the BofM is doctrinally fine.. It is a novel like the "Lion the Witch and the Wardrobe", Just not as well written" There is a lot of Biblical truth within it.. But Like all novels it is the work of a man. It is not God breathed as is the Bible.. Come back and tell me what a great work of God Smith did in bringing the BofM to the world after you show me where it teaches mormon doctrine. After you show me that it teaches that The Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are one God (2 Nephi 31:21). Or that it insists that God is One (Alma 11:26-29). When you start agreeing with your own scripture then ask me again when you can believe it.. IHS jim

[Erundur]

Originally Posted by James Banta

They knew the translation was correct because Joseph Smith told them it was correct and if they ask God he would give them that ***urance. They felt it was correct, they believed it was correct. They had no knowledge that it was correct..

That's not what they said.

In this discussion I am not going to question whether the plates were real or not.. I am saying that no one other than Smith translated or could translate a word of the text of the BofM..

But you're wrong. Because it was translated by the gift and power of God, it could have been translated by anyone God chose for the ***. This does not change the fact that there are at least three other witnesses to the text of the Book of Mormon.

Is any part of the Bible the work of one man? Even the Children of Israel heard God speak to them from Sinai. Seventy of the Elders of the people accompanied Moses up onto the mountain where God made it clear to them that Moses had been called as the Lord's prophet. Did God ever do such a thing for Smith? Did Jesus ever appear to any of the elders of mormonism and make it clear Smith had been called to be His prophet? Has any of the BofM's original language ever been translated by anyone but Smith? NO! It is a one man show.. A secret and Jesus told us that in secret He does nothing (John 18:20).

Is that a yes or a no?

As long as it teaches a different Gospel, A gospel of grace available to mankind only after they have done all they can do, it will never be believable.

So it's not a matter of being new after all? You just removed the barrier to believing it that you previously erected.

And why did Smith make such a proclamation?

He didn't.

[neverending]

Originally Posted by Erundur

That's not what they said.


But you're wrong. Because it was translated by the gift and power of God, it could have been translated by anyone God chose for the ***. This does not change the fact that there are at least three other witnesses to the text of the Book of Mormon.


Is that a yes or a no?


So it's not a matter of being new after all? You just removed the barrier to believing it that you previously erected.


He didn't.

Why would God choose a dishonest man to be his spokesman? Why a man who was known for money digging, found guilty in a court of law? Is this the kind of worthy man that God would allow to bring forth His supposed church? Why a need for a restoration when God's gospel was here all along?

Your church preaches another gospel, it is a works based religion and there is no amount of good works that would EVER be acceptable to God. In fact in Isaiah it says, "All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags....." (Is. 64:6) Do you understand what filthy rags means? Not to gross everyone out but it represents the rags that women wore during that time of the month. So, now that is how God sees the foolish attempts to do righteous acts, and the LDS continue attempting to do things, throwing filthy rags at His feet.
It is only through the shed blood of Jesus that we have any righteousness. When we accept Him and allow Him into our hearts, he then wraps us in HIS righteousness so that when the day comes and we stand before God, we who have accepted Him will be found spotless.

[Erundur]

Originally Posted by neverending

Why would God choose a dishonest man to be his spokesman? Why a man who was known for money digging, found guilty in a court of law?

He didn't; he chose Joseph Smith.

Your church preaches another gospel

That's right; we preach the gospel of Jesus Christ.

[neverending]

Originally Posted by Erundur

He didn't; he chose Joseph Smith.


That's right; we preach the gospel of Jesus Christ.

NO! It is up to you to prove to me that Joseph Smith was an honest man. God wouldn't choose such a man as JS. A man as I said who was arrested, brought before a judge, found guilty of money digging, cheating his neighbors, an adulterer, liar and vandal. You do know that he helped in destroying the Expositor. Was this the behavior of a prophet of God? And NO! Your gospel is NOT the one Jesus taught. Tell me where Jesus taught that man would become a god. Tell me where Jesus taught that people must be married in the temple. Tell me where Jesus taught that we must do good works. Tell me where Jesus taught that man should do temple work for the dead. Yours IS another gospel and it continues to deceive many and it leads people far from the one true God. None of these things are found within the Bible, no, these are man made ideas and made up doctrines. You want to keep your eyes closed and afraid to know the truth? There is no shame in investigating your religion for a church that has ALL the answers, doesn't allow any questions. Are you afraid that your family would find out you were investigating. Does that seem right that you would feel guilty for doing so? That is a sure sign of a cult.

[Erundur]

Originally Posted by neverending

NO! It is up to you to prove to me that Joseph Smith was an honest man.

I don't have to prove squat to you.

God wouldn't choose such a man as JS.

The fact that he did proves that he would.

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Erundur

I don't have to prove squat to you.


The fact that he did proves that he would.

Since we have shown that he is dishonest. A man that cheated his neighbors in paying him to find treasure on their land. That he was brought before a judge to answer those charges and paid fines after the judge heard him proves that he was dishonest. If you want to stick by the fairy tale that Smith was and honest man then you will have to prove that he was never charged and paid fines in a criminal trial..

God did choose Moses after he committed murder. God didn't withdraw His blessing He gave Abraham after Abraham faithlessly took Hagar for his wife to try to force God's promises to come to p***.. The difference between these men and their sin and Smith and his sin is that both Moses and Abraham repented.. Smith went on writing revelations tacking God's name on the lustful desires of his own heart.. God doesn't change what was adultery in the days of Moses was adultery in the days of Smith.. In taking another man's wife to his bed, then saying that God commanded it proves that Smith didn't change, he was always a perverse liar and cheat. Such a man is not worthy of salvation much less worthy to be God's spokesman to the people.. NE was right such a man who lived outside repentance, outside of faith in Jesus is a man God would never choose.. IHS jim

[Apologette]

Originally Posted by Christian

Nobody else ever even peeked at the CONTENT of that book but joe smith. smith was the only one who could 'testify' that the content of the book of mormon was anything OTHER THAN FICTION. And of course like most of his stuff, nobody could 'check' him. He and he alone made up the mormon religion.

Agree or disagree? Comments?

in the Name of Jesus Christ,
morefish

Sort of odd since the Bible indicates that two or three witnesses are needed to establish a fact! But, then, maybe there weren't enough funny stones to go around!

[Apologette]

Originally Posted by Erundur

He didn't; he chose Joseph Smith.


That's right; we preach the gospel of Jesus Christ.

You preach the strange, bizarro gospel of Joe Smith, the Mormon deity. None of the whacky doctrines central to Mormonism are taught either in the Bible, or recorded in the tradition of the Church. There is no evidence that Christians taught polygamy as a way to godhood, or that ***hing was necessary to reach some weird Celestial Kingdom where there is eternal sex. Mormonism is a wholly new religious system coming straight from the fallen, evil mind, of Joe Smith.

[Christian]

e posted:

Originally Posted by James BantaThey knew the translation was correct because Joseph Smith told them it was correct and if they ask God he would give them that ***urance. They felt it was correct, they believed it was correct. They had no knowledge that it was correct..

That's not what they said.

PLEASE CITE FOR US where any of them said they had CHECKED HIS TRANSLATION and it was correct. (you can't of course, because none ever did so)

In this discussion I am not going to question whether the plates were real or not.. I am saying that no one other than Smith translated or could translate a word of the text of the BofM..

But you're wrong. Because it was translated by the gift and power of God, it could have been translated by anyone God chose for the ***. This does not change the fact that there are at least three other witnesses to the text of the Book of Mormon.

NOT ONE OF WHOM ever translated one word of it. NOT ONE OF WHOM COULD HONESTLY TESTIFY that the TEXT SAID ANYTHING AT ALL.

Is any part of the Bible the work of one man? Even the Children of Israel heard God speak to them from Sinai. Seventy of the Elders of the people accompanied Moses up onto the mountain where God made it clear to them that Moses had been called as the Lord's prophet. Did God ever do such a thing for Smith? Did Jesus ever appear to any of the elders of mormonism and make it clear Smith had been called to be His prophet? Has any of the BofM's original language ever been translated by anyone but Smith? NO! It is a one man show.. A secret and Jesus told us that in secret He does nothing (John 18:20).

Is that a yes or a no?

Nope, nobody but joseph smith could testify of the CONTENT of his book.

So you are STILL STUCK with joseph smith's one-man show, NOBODY TRANSLATED THE BOOK BUT HIM. NOBODY CAN TESTIFY AS TO THE VALIDITY OF ITS CONTENTS BUT HIM.

Christian

[Christian]

e posted:

Originally Posted by neverendingWhy would God choose a dishonest man to be his spokesman? Why a man who was known for money digging, found guilty in a court of law?

He didn't; he chose Joseph Smith.

A well-known liar, peepstone gazer, and money digger. Yep, joe smith.

Your church preaches another gospel

That's right; we preach the gospel of Jesus Christ.

a false gospel never taught in BIBLICAL times, of your false jesus christ, a demonic spirit-brother-of-satan that joe smith invented.

Yep a 'different' gospel of a 'different' jesus.

Christian

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Christian

[COLOR=#008000]A well-known liar, peepstone gazer,

I have always wondered what actually is "peepstone"?

Is it a type of quartz ?

[James Banta]

[Erundur;152290]That's not what they said.

If you have proof that Joseph Smith was wrong about these men and they were the liars he called them them show us where they said they saw Jesus and heard His voice testifying to the truth of the BofM. Surely such an event would have been recorded by them and not just by Smith..

But you're wrong. Because it was translated by the gift and power of God, it could have been translated by anyone God chose for the ***. This does not change the fact that there are at least three other witnesses to the text of the Book of Mormon.

This then should be hard.. If they KNEW that the text was correctly translated then they read the untranslated text as it appeared on the plates. Just show me where that was done.. Do you need to see the text of the different translators of the Bible? There have been many. Each translation had more than one man doing the work but instead a whole team.. What parts did any of the witnesses translate as a teammate of Smith in the translation work? A couple of them worked as a scribe but did any of the share in the translation? No?

Is that a yes or a no?

To what question?

So it's not a matter of being new after all? You just removed the barrier to believing it that you previously erected.

There is a new doctrine taught in the BofM.. It says we are saved by grace AFTER ALL WE CAN DO (2 Nephi 25:23). The Holy Spirit through Paul said that if salvation were by works then it is not of grace and if it is by grace it is not of works (Romans 11:6). The BofM then teaches that salvation is by grace but only the works gained through works. That is a new doctrine because the older revelation, the Bible, teaches that works and grace are diametrically opposed.

He didn't.

If the BofM is the fraud that Science and the Bible show it to be Then the BofM are Smiths words and not those of God.. That would make that the BofM being the word of God Smith's own personal statement and not God's word through Holy Prophets.. Smith alone made all the proclamations stated in the BofM.. IHS jim

[neverending]

Originally Posted by Erundur

I don't have to prove squat to you.


The fact that he did proves that he would.

Still waiting for your answer as to when did Jesus ever teach about temple marriage, or that we must do good works, or do work for the dead. No answers? Then yes, your religion teaches another gospel!

[Erundur]

Originally Posted by James Banta

Since we have shown that he is dishonest. A man that cheated his neighbors in paying him to find treasure on their land. That he was brought before a judge to answer those charges and paid fines after the judge heard him proves that he was dishonest. If you want to stick by the fairy tale that Smith was and honest man then you will have to prove that he was never charged and paid fines in a criminal trial..

Nope, you have to prove your own claim. But either way, it wouldn't change the fact that there were three other witnesses for the text of the Book of Mormon.

[Erundur]

Originally Posted by Apologette

You preach the strange, bizarro gospel of Joe Smith, the Mormon deity.

So you lie.

[Erundur]

Originally Posted by Christian

PLEASE CITE FOR US where any of them said they had CHECKED HIS TRANSLATION and it was correct.

Why?

Here's what they said: "And we also know that they have been translated by the gift and power of God, for his voice hath declared it unto us; wherefore we know of a surety that the work is true."

NOT ONE OF WHOM ever translated one word of it. NOT ONE OF WHOM COULD HONESTLY TESTIFY that the TEXT SAID ANYTHING AT ALL.

See above.

Nope, nobody but joseph smith could testify of the CONTENT of his book.

So you are STILL STUCK with joseph smith's one-man show, NOBODY TRANSLATED THE BOOK BUT HIM. NOBODY CAN TESTIFY AS TO THE VALIDITY OF ITS CONTENTS BUT HIM.

See above.

[Erundur]

Originally Posted by Christian

A well-known liar, peepstone gazer, and money digger. Yep, joe smith.

Nope, Joseph Smith. The real one, not the anti-Mormon joe smith.

a false gospel never taught in BIBLICAL times, of your false jesus christ, a demonic spirit-brother-of-satan that joe smith invented.

As a Christian, I disagree with you that the gospel of Jesus Christ is false.

Yep a 'different' gospel of a 'different' jesus.

Yep, the real gospel of the Biblical Jesus Christ.

[neverending]

Originally Posted by Erundur

So you lie.

NO! The ONLY one here that continues to lie is YOU!! I am still waiting for you to answer my questions. Where did Jesus teach we were to be married in the temple? Where did Jesus teach that we must do work for the dead? Where did Jesus teach that we must do good works? So, since you have failed to show me where I am wrong, again it is Mormonism, your religion that is teaching ANOTHER Gospel, far from the teachings of Christianity and the church Jesus began.

[Erundur]

Originally Posted by James Banta

This then should be hard.. If they KNEW that the text was correctly translated then they read the untranslated text as it appeared on the plates.

That's one way they could know, but hardly the only way. They KNEW it was translated correctly because God told them it was, and they fully trusted God.

To what question?

"Is that what you would have told the first century saints regarding the books of the New Testament?"

There is a new doctrine taught in the BofM..

So would you have advised the first century saints to disbelieve the new doctrines taught by Jesus and the books of the New Testament?

If the BofM is the fraud that Science and the Bible show it to be Then the BofM are Smiths words and not those of God..

Not necessarily, but since the Book of Mormon isn't a fraud, it doesn't matter.

[neverending]

Originally Posted by Erundur

Nope, Joseph Smith. The real one, not the anti-Mormon joe smith.


As a Christian, I disagree with you that the gospel of Jesus Christ is false.


Yep, the real gospel of the Biblical Jesus Christ.

YOU are NOT a Christian! Your church wants so desperately to look Christian but we know different. Stop the pretense, stop the lies and admit that Mormonism is another gospel that Paul warned the Church about. Gal. 1:8, "But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed." How interesting that the scribes who wrote the NT would use such words as, "an angel from heaven." Yes, an angel who was one of Satan's minions or Satan himself. "For such men are false apostles, deceitful workers, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. No wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. Therefore it is not surprising if his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness, whose end will be according to their deeds."
If you must work out your salvation and obey ALL your churches laws and ordinances, have you succeeded? Are you to tell us that you are so righteous and have NEVER broken any laws of God? Would telling a white lie be breaking God's law? For even a white lie is still a lie and so that makes one a liar does it not? God knew we could never obey his laws, that is why we needed a Savior. Now as a Mormon, you want to do the *** yourself instead of accepting God's free gift of salvation. Course Mormons have a whole different definition of salvation then Christians, don't you? Mormons have several definitions that are not the same as what I believe nor the other Christians here. Salvation for me was given freely the moment I accepted Jesus into my heart and life. He changed me and made me a new person. Believing in him makes me WANT to do good, not be forced to as it is in your religion. My salvation has given me eternal life, a life I will live someday in God's presence and standing at His right hand; can you say the same? 11 John 5:13

[James Banta]

[Erundur;152331]That's one way they could know, but hardly the only way. They KNEW it was translated correctly because God told them it was, and they fully trusted God.

There is no place in the records of mormonism that tell us that any of the witnesses ever heard the voice of God as Joseph Smith said he heard and saw him.. They could say that they heard him testify of the translation and they therefore know it was true.. I can say the same thing.. I have had God tell me that the BofM is a scam set in place by a man who improperly used God's name and called himself a prophet in so doing.. Therefore like these men have said that they know the translation is correct, I by the authority of the Holy Spirit say that I know it is a fraud, a lie congered up from the legends of the mound builders and the fertile imagination of Joseph Smith to lead some weak minded men of his era to make false statements.. And I say that through the authority of Jesus because the Holy Spirit has told me these things.. Can't you see that my spiritual experiences are just as authoritative as theirs? They have no right to expect me or anyone else to believe them anymore than I have for you to believe me.. I say with authority that no one of these people including Smith ever saw or heard God, or an angel. All they have to confirm that anything they say is true is a personal emotional experience.. I can respect it as that until it is held up as absolute and mine diminished into worthlessness.. They are equal and therefore not to be used as proof of anything.. All you can use to prove anything here is the Bible.. That and that alone is accepted as God's authoritative word..

"Is that what you would have told the first century saints regarding the books of the New Testament?"

If the NT was filled with doctrines that dismissed the law and the prophets I would say that yes.. That is what LDS prophets do they dismiss the Bible and rebuild themselves as the only real rule of law of the Church. Even the LDS scripture is changeable that their whim and will. Remember the words of President Benson on that matter; that the prophet is more important to the LDS than the Standard works? The whole doctrine of mormonism is shifting sand. Is Adam God? Is there many High priest or one? Is there more than one God, even for this world? All that would be the doctrines of mormonism if it's doctrines didn't change..

So would you have advised the first century saints to disbelieve the new doctrines taught by Jesus and the books of the New Testament?

Jesus taught no new doctrines.. He only intensified all that was commanded.. Look at the Sermon on the Mount for the text..

Not necessarily, but since the Book of Mormon isn't a fraud, it doesn't matter.

Since ALL the physical evidence points to it being a fraud I have to believe that you just don't know what you are talking about.. IHS jim

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by James Banta

There is no place in the records of mormonism that tell us that any of the witnesses ever heard the voice of God as Joseph Smith said he heard and saw him..

Jim shoots......and Jim SCORES!

[alanmolstad]

Jim I gots to tell you,,,you hit the nail on the head there......

You do carry all the water for us around here and do all of the real heavy lifting...
And it has made you ever the more better at precisely pointing out the flaws in Mormonism.


keep up the good work!