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Thread: Bill Nye/Ken Ham debate

  1. #51
    alanmolstad
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    asyou never got back to me, I guess I should just sum up the rest of what I was going to write if you needed to see more of how I go over the text verse by verse.

    I would have pointed out that the place where the Bible draws all life from, both animal life and human life according to the teachings of Evolution is "the earth itself"
    The earth is the final place where the teachings of evolution will trace back life to.

    Then I show how the text in Genesis teaches the very same thing, that all life, be it human or animal, all come from a common starting point in the Bible...(The Earth)


    Next I would likely deal with the events of the 4th day.
    The deal with the 4th day is that this is the point where the Young earth teachers had to start adding things to the text and re-working the first part of the story to make everything fit with how they wanted the 4th day to read.

    But I show how it is not necessary to add all that junk to the story (like the invention of a "sourceless light)

    The story of the 4th day reads like a normal story with no need to add things to it to make it work with the first part of the Genesis week.

    We remember that at the first day the Text tells us that God created the "Heavens" and so we take this to be talking about the "stars" and as our sun is just a normal star that was created also "In the beginning"we have all the source for the light talked about on the 4th day.

    I point out that the words "also made the stars" is an addition to the text and does not actually belong there at all.




    point by point I can show what Im talking about is the only correct way to understand the Genesis story...

  2. #52
    Senior Member MichaellS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    asyou never got back to me, I guess I should just sum up the rest of what I was going to write if you needed to see more of how I go over the text verse by verse.
    Hi, if I only had ample convenience, I would be on here more. If you will only be a tad bit more patient, I’ll try to respond eventually.

    I would have pointed out that the place where the Bible draws all life from, both animal life and human life according to the teachings of Evolution is "the earth itself"
    The earth is the final place where the teachings of evolution will trace back life to.
    Curious Alan, with your use of quotations here, “the earth itself”, are you referring to something previously said by yourself or someone else?

    Then I show how the text in Genesis teaches the very same thing, that all life, be it human or animal, all come from a common starting point in the Bible...(The Earth)
    This is not something I can support in good conscience.

    “by him all things are held together.” (Colossians 1:17)

    “, , by him all things subsist - Or are sustained, , The meaning is, that they are kept in the present state; their existence, order, and arrangement are continued by his power. If unsupported by him, they would fall into disorder, or sink back to nothing. - Barnes' Notes on the Bible

  3. #53
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaellS View Post
    [SIZE=3]
    Curious Alan, with your use of quotations here, “the earth itself”, are you referring to something previously said by yourself or someone else?

    I always am quoting the Bible...even if I dont list the chapter and verse, Im still always quoting a source and not just myself...

  4. #54
    alanmolstad
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    11 Then God said, "Let the land produce vegetation:


    12 The land produced vegetation:

    24 And God said, "Let the land produce living creatures

    19 Now the LORD God had formed out of the ground all the beasts







    So all animals are from the Earth itself.
    But what about humans?
    Are we from a different place than all the animals, or are we from the very same place?


    "you will eat your food until you return to the ground, since from it you were taken"








    God commanded "the ground" of this earth to bring forth life.
    And we humans are from this very same source.
    Last edited by alanmolstad; 01-30-2015 at 11:10 AM.

  5. #55
    alanmolstad
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    so I was dealing once with a person who held that the Bible was all myth, and had nothing in agreement with modern science at all.


    I asked him, "Where does your godless evolution trace all human life back to"
    "The great apes and man share a family tree" was his answer.

    "Good answer" I said.
    But then I asked, "Is that it? Is that all the farther back in time evolution goes? Apes appear out of thin air and we evolved from them after that happened?"

    "Well no not at all" came his answer, "The evolution of mankind goes back millions and millions of years before the rise of apes"

    "So ok I get that" I then go on to ask, "And can you tell me where this story of evolution started at?"


    He paused and suggested that there were likely just simple cells in a tide pool that split and caused all evolution from then on


    I challenged this, by asking, "But what came before even that first simple cell?"

    This got him to think for a moment, then he answered, "Before that I would guess that the very building blocks of life are what was the start"



    "Another Good answer" I told him...."And where are even the most simple building blocks of life from?"

    His answer was "They are a natural part of the earth itself, we are a natural evolved part of this planet"





    His answer is correct....and it fits nicely next to what the Bible teaches at Genesis 3:19
    Last edited by alanmolstad; 01-30-2015 at 11:15 AM.

  6. #56
    Senior Member MichaellS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    so I was dealing once with a person who held that the Bible was all myth, and had nothing in agreement with modern science at all.


    I asked him, "Where does your godless evolution trace all human life back to"
    "The great apes and man share a family tree" was his answer.

    "Good answer" I said.
    But then I asked, "Is that it? Is that all the farther back in time evolution goes? Apes appear out of thin air and we evolved from them after that happened?"

    "Well no not at all" came his answer, "The evolution of mankind goes back millions and millions of years before the rise of apes"

    "So ok I get that" I then go on to ask, "And can you tell me where this story of evolution started at?"


    He paused and suggested that there were likely just simple cells in a tide pool that split and caused all evolution from then on


    I challenged this, by asking, "But what came before even that first simple cell?"

    This got him to think for a moment, then he answered, "Before that I would guess that the very building blocks of life are what was the start"



    "Another Good answer" I told him...."And where are even the most simple building blocks of life from?"

    His answer was "They are a natural part of the earth itself, we are a natural evolved part of this planet"





    His answer is correct....and it fits nicely next to what the Bible teaches at Genesis 3:19
    It is amazing to me here with all you have ***erted thus far and I still have no idea where your belief in creation leaves off and evolution kicks in?

  7. #57
    Senior Member MichaellS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    all life, be it human or animal, all come from a common starting point in the Bible...(The Earth)
    I think you do see why I would feel your above claim would conflict with Col 1:17 don’t you?

    “by him all things are held together.”

  8. #58
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaellS View Post
    It is amazing to me here with all you have ***erted thus far and I still have no idea where your belief in creation leaves off and evolution kicks in?
    I may not understand your question...
    I believe that evolution is a tool of God, that He used to create this universe.

    So evolution is as old as the universe is old, and a natural part of it, like light and sound and gravity...

    so evolution kicked-in at the Big bang.....

  9. #59
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaellS View Post
    I think you do see why I would feel your above claim would conflict with Col 1:17 don’t you?
    God is always before all things, and in Him we are....thats no issue here.


    What we are talking about is that God used evolution to bring life to this world...and the evolution is a holy tool of God's hands.....and should be respected as such.

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    God is always before all things, and in Him we are....thats no issue here.

    What we are talking about is that God used evolution to bring life to this world...and the evolution is a holy tool of God's hands.....and should be respected as such.
    That’s where I thought you were going, I just wanted to be sure.

    So what you are further saying here is that the work of His creation at work today is done by the progression of evolution. Is that close? Truly, there is a New Testament teaching that deals with evolution. That teaching has to do with how the outer man will benefit from the inner man’s growth in Christ and the transformation within.

    Other than this, if progression is a product of creation, then what of the use of this word in Colossians 1:17: “, , held together.” That may make or break the defining issue over this whole concern. I do think it noteworthy that roughly half of the translations out there use one of the two words, either “held” or “consist”. Fair to say that the word itself, “held” right off the bat doesn’t sound entirely conducive to the movement of progression, but stationary. Let’s see this verb once from Strongs:


    4921. sunistémi and sunistanó
    Strong's Concordance
    sunistémi and sunistanó: to commend, establish, stand near, consist
    Original Word: συνίστημι, συνιστάνω
    Part of Speech: Verb
    Short Definition: I commend, prove, am composed of, cohere
    Definition: I place together, commend, prove, exhibit; instrans: I stand with; I am composed of, cohere.
    Possibly, you have a differing use of the word “evolution”. One that doesn’t recognize something evolving as James said doesn’t occur.

    Every good thing given and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shifting shadow.” (James 1:7)

  11. #61
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaellS View Post
    That’s where I thought you were going, I just wanted to be sure.

    So what you are further saying here is that the work of His creation at work today is done by the progression of evolution. Is that close? Truly, there is a New Testament teaching that deals with evolution. That teaching has to do with how the outer man will benefit from the inner man’s growth in Christ and the transformation within.

    Other than this, if progression is a product of creation, then what of the use of this word in Colossians 1:17: “, , held together.” That may make or break the defining issue over this whole concern. I do think it noteworthy that roughly half of the translations out there use one of the two words, either “held” or “consist”. Fair to say that the word itself, “held” right off the bat doesn’t sound entirely conducive to the movement of progression, but stationary. Let’s see this verb once from Strongs:




    Possibly, you have a differing use of the word “evolution”. One that doesn’t recognize something evolving as James said doesn’t occur.

    I did not understand a bloody word.....sorry.






    All I can say is that the Lord used evolution as a tool, that he created to form life in the universe.

  12. #62
    alanmolstad
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    “Every good thing given and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shifting shadow.” (James 1:7


    every good thing = love peace, joy, etc

    every perfect gift = the gifts of the Holy Spirit


    from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation = God does not get old, time does not change God







    I dont have the slightest idea where you were headed with that bible verse?...
    It has zero to do with the point I am making about Evolution being a tool of the Lord to bring life to this universe.


    God is unchanged by time...
    But the universe changes moment to moment because of the p***ing of time.
    That is why we say that God is not like anything else in creation.

  13. #63
    Senior Member MichaellS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    I dont have the slightest idea where you were headed with that bible verse?...
    It has zero to do with the point I am making about Evolution being a tool of the Lord to bring life to this universe.
    I can understand why Alan. I too wouldn't dream of touching that verse if I wanted to maintain something counter to what I have been accustom to for so long, and yes, you are not alone.

    Once more:


    V7 “Every good thing”

    Could I invite you to consider the ramifications of those words? What says Genesis? For verse 7 is seen there a direct connection:

    “And God saw that it was good” (Gen.1:4,10,12,18,21,25)
    If you refuse to admit this connection, which I hope you don’t, either way the truth wins out.

  14. #64
    alanmolstad
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    I'm in my car...but is that last quote really from James 1; 7 as you listed? ..


    Seems different for some reason to me

  15. #65
    alanmolstad
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    Is that in James 1:7?

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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    I'm in my car...but is that last quote really from James 1; 7 as you listed? ..


    Seems different for some reason to me
    Oh be careful there my friend, ,

  17. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    Is that in James 1:7?
    Yes, I'll talk later, , like when sitting still.

  18. #68
    alanmolstad
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    Can you quote me James 1:7 ?

  19. #69
    alanmolstad
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    Evolution is good...as much as is light and love and peace...

  20. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    Evolution is good...as much as is light and love and peace...
    Let me know when you stop driving okay? I'm not comfy w/dat.

  21. #71
    alanmolstad
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    I'm sitting in cat..but waiting for wife in store

  22. #72
    alanmolstad
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    I have a hard time understanding your posts.
    You speak in a manner that is hard for me to read.

    Sometimes I get the real feeling that you are using a translation program?

  23. #73
    alanmolstad
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    You wrote: “Every good thing given and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shifting shadow.” (James 1:7)"


    So Im driving around and I glance at your post above, and it just seems to not sound like I remember it??????



    The way I remember James1 verse 7 it reads - "That person should not expect to receive anything from the Lord."

  24. #74
    alanmolstad
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    anyway.....

    " God made the wild animals according to their kinds, the livestock according to their kinds, and all the creatures that move along the ground according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good"


    this is where we learn that evolution is "good'

    for we learn that it was out of the ground that both animal and humans developed , and this is totally in harmony with the teachings of evolution.


    The "ground" was commanded by God to bring forth life...and it did.

  25. #75
    Senior Member MichaellS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    You wrote: “Every good thing given and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shifting shadow.” (James 1:7)"

    So Im driving around and I glance at your post above, and it just seems to not sound like I remember it??????

    The way I remember James1 verse 7 it reads - "That person should not expect to receive anything from the Lord."
    Your memory serves you well on the first half of that chapter, , you’re right. It’s verse 17, not “7”. My missed accuracy.

    So, back to that which I first asked for, is verse 17’s “good” the same as Gen.1:4,10,12,18,21,25 “good”?


    “Every good thing given and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shifting shadow.” (James 1:17)

    “And God saw that it was good” (Gen.1:4,10,12,18,21,25)

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