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  1. #1
    alanmolstad
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    Default Bill Nye/Ken Ham debate

    I used to live in Seattle and got to go see and hear Bill Nye many times.

    I have also gotten to attend an 8-week cl*** on young earth creationism taught by Ken Ham personally .

    I heard that Bill and ken got togather for a debate the other day....but I have yet to hear any reviews of the event.

    I should do some research, but if anyone finds a good review post the link for me?

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    i saw the debate and i thought it was a poor one as Nye was off topic and Ham really didn't make good points.

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    Senior Member MichaellS's Avatar
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    Been thinking about this myself. I’ve seen the dismal remarks and that it is said neither contestant stood out on either position. Yet, for the purpose of your thread here Alan, I did locate what I think is the extensiveness of this debate in transcript form:

    Debate Transcript

    I too have sat under Mr. Ham locally, a fine instructor. Mr Nye's programs I found very interesting and as I recall seldom referenced his supposed mentor, Mr. Sagan.

    Hello Dr., nice to have you on board with us!
    Last edited by MichaellS; 01-18-2015 at 05:21 AM.

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    Thanks but I do not know how often I will visit here. It seems very slow and my time can be limited.

    I found Nye to avoid many of the issues Ham raised as his purpose was not to debate but bring attention to some cause he had. I was actually bored when I viewed it as no one hit any home runs or destroyed the other's argument.

  5. #5
    alanmolstad
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    I tried to read the text of the debate. ..but it put me to sleep

  6. #6
    alanmolstad
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    I have not seen any recording of the debate.
    From just reading a bit of the thing I was surprised to see so much "extra" **** was allowed to be presented.

    It was not really a debate but seems more on paper to read like it was a chance for both sides to quote all the things that have written in the past on the topic...

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    The recording were available just after the debate. it might be on youtube but I haven't looked for them. it was a very disappointing debate but Nye needed it to get national attention again.

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    Senior Member MichaellS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrDavidT View Post
    The recording were available just after the debate. it might be on youtube but I haven't looked for them. it was a very disappointing debate but Nye needed it to get national attention again.
    The video is provided at the bottom of my above link "Debate Transcript".

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    Senior Member MichaellS's Avatar
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    I'm not so convinced as this debate being such an unprofitable disappointment. If this is the opinion, I would have to ask just what was it you were anticipating when one's faith meets up with universal disbelief, speechlessness?

    Take the opening alloted time for each, some 35-min. What would you say of the "presentation" and following 5-min "re****le"?

    My opinion of this section is that Mr. Ham provided the greater amount of tangible evidence between the two. Mr. Nye invited us to reason with him on many fronts as did Mr. Ham. But as Mr. Ham included the one to drive home, and that was the item of "observational science" as opposed to observations made after the fact. Which one? Why the line of linage being detailed in the bible of course, form Adam to Christ. The historical accompanyment also within the bible concerning that linage isn't something Mr. Nye wanted nor could contest with anything founded.

  10. #10
    alanmolstad
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    I attended Ken hams Origins cl***
    ...while Ken was a nice enough guy the cl*** was silly

  11. #11
    Senior Member MichaellS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    I attended Ken hams Origins cl***
    ...while Ken was a nice enough guy the cl*** was silly
    Really, , I can only wonder why his cl*** seemed to lack for you. Possibly, a much earlier version of the content than when I attended in '01, as I don't know how far back to date his "origins" breakout.

  12. #12
    alanmolstad
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    I attended in about 1993 in Seattle, at a church at the eastside.
    Ken Ham taught us, for 8 weeks personally.

    It was a complete waste of time....lacked any value at all...

    I came away from the experience with the conclusion that the whole idea behind his "Young earth" concept is a lie.....


    Later I got a chance to attend a seminar taught personally by Dr Hugh Ross, and it was far, far...FAR FREAKING BETTER!!!!!

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    Senior Member MichaellS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    I attended in about 1993 in Seattle, at a church at the eastside.
    Ken Ham taught us, for 8 weeks personally.

    It was a complete waste of time....lacked any value at all...

    I came away from the experience with the conclusion that the whole idea behind his "Young earth" concept is a lie.....


    Later I got a chance to attend a seminar taught personally by Dr Hugh Ross, and it was far, far...FAR FREAKING BETTER!!!!!
    This piece back in 1980, lacks value? Got any favorites that tend to jump out as especially deceitful?

  14. #14
    alanmolstad
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    One of the things I remember fondly of Dr Walter Martin was that when a question about the age of the earth came up, or about evolution, Walter would always give an answer that allowed for the vast amount of time held true by science.

    Walter always made sure that the Christians like myself that believe 100% in an Earth that is Billions and Billions of years old, and that we are here via evolution were given the room and the freedom within his answers to believe as our hearts move us to.
    Last edited by alanmolstad; 01-23-2015 at 03:08 PM.

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    Senior Member MichaellS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    One of the things I remember fondly of Dr Walter Martin was that when a question about the age of the earth came up, or about evolution, Walter would always give an answer that allowed for the vast amount of time held true by science.

    Walter always made sure that the Christians like myself that believe 100% in an Earth that is Billions and Billions of years old, and that we are here via evolution were given the room and the freedom within his answers to believe as our hearts move us to.
    Agreed, as long as your use of "evolution" conforms with Dr. Martin’s comment on evolution here around the 5:30 mark and continued on pt-5.

  16. #16
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaellS View Post
    Agreed, as long as your use of "evolution" conforms with Dr. Martin’s comment on evolution here around the 5:30 mark and continued on pt-5.
    Notice what i said...
    "One of the things I remember fondly of Dr Walter Martin was that when a question about the age of the earth came up, or about evolution, Walter would always give an answer that allowed for the vast amount of time held true by science.


    Walter Martin always gave an answer on this issue that allowed for the Billion and billions of years that science informs us about.

    This is directly counter to the message put out by the Young Earth teachers.

    Young Earth Creationism is a myth...its an invented lie by people that have an outward appearance of someone who has read the bible,but when you question them you find out that they know only what their binders allow them to see.

  17. #17
    alanmolstad
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    my personal view is that evolution works with the text of genesis nicely...

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    Senior Member MichaellS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    my personal view is that evolution works with the text of genesis nicely...
    Apparently not so with Dr. Martin's view. I might need a more specific link to what you are claiming he taught.

  19. #19
    alanmolstad
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    If you listen to him, you notice that Martin objects to what he calls "chance"...more of a "god-less chance"

    But as evolution is not a matter of chance, then Martin is actually objecting not so much to the teachings of evolution, but to the teachings that there is no god controling the universe.

    That is what Martin objects to.


    What Im saying is that whenever Martin had to answer a question on his radio show about evolution and creationism, he always made sure that within his answer he allowed for Christians who believe in a "old earth"|

    This is the key thing to keep in mind, in that Martin allowed for the Billions and billions of years that science teaches have happened from the time of the Big Bang.

    This also puts martin at odds with the many Creationists that held to an earth that was only 6,000 years old.

  20. #20
    alanmolstad
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    If you listen to him, you notice that Martin objects to what he calls "chance"...more of a "god-less chance"

    But as evolution is not a matter of chance, then Martin is actually objecting not so much to the teachings of evolution, but to the teachings that there is no god controlling the universe.

    That is what Martin objects to.

    Just listen to his arguments against the idea of "chance" being responsible for life on the earth.
    Over and over Martin attacks the idea that random chance free of God's hand was responsible for life on the earth.



    What Im saying is that whenever Martin had to answer a question on his radio show about evolution and creationism, he always made sure that within his answer he allowed for Christians who believe in a "old earth"|

    This is the key thing to keep in mind, in that Martin allowed for the Billions and billions of years that science teaches have happened from the time of the Big Bang.

    This also puts martin at odds with the many Creationists that held to an earth that was only 6,000 years old.

  21. #21
    alanmolstad
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    Let me show you how this question of "chance" is to be understood by the Christian regarding evolution

    In the Bible story of Jonah and the Whale we see a very good example of how we should look at the teachings of evolution...(or chance)...and of God's control of the universe.

    In that story the person of Jonah is at one point on a ship in the middle of a great storm.
    The men on the ship want to understand why this storm is so bad and who is to blame for it?, so that cast lots and the lot falls on Jonah.

    Now consider this casting of the lot onto Jonah.


    Was it simply "chance"?

    was this part of the story only dumb luck?

    Or is there something about the casting on to Jonah that makes you see God's hand in it?

    THAT......that answer is how we should view the way evolution has formed all life including humans on this earth.

    For because of our faith when we read about the casting of the Lot onto Jonah we see God's hand in it.

    But can we prove it?......no.

    There is no way to prove it was God's hand in the casting of the Lot onto Jonah....Its just due to our faith that we think that is what happened, but there is no proof.

    however if a scientist were observing the men on the ship cast lots, and watched the lot fall onto Jonah, then that scientist would consider the results to be what you would expect if the casting of the lots were done in a manner consistent to the laws of probability and chance.



    finally, in an answer to a lady on the question of the age of the earth,I remember that Walter's answer was, "What difference does it make?"

    What Martin was saying is that it does not matter to a Christian from a faith or salvation point of view what age of the earth is.
    This is because we hang our salvation and faith on the fact that there IS a God who created the earth.....and it does not matter how long ago that that happend.

  22. #22
    alanmolstad
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    here is an interesting side note...

    Did you know that the numbers that science teachers in evolution teaches for the rise of modern man, are kinda close to the numbers given by the Young earth Creationists?....



    Consider:
    Lets say you invent a time machine and are able to travel back into time and kidnap men from past ages.
    How far back can you go before you start kidnapping men who can be discovered to not be true modern men?

    The answer is about 10,000 years.
    If you go back past that then at our current level of science we would be able to tell the difference between that man from the past and a common man of this modern age.

    In my Ken Ham ORIGINs cl*** I had to read a lot of the works of a guy names Henry Morris, and in one of his works he talks about a concept called "gap genealogy"
    He therefore allows for a lot of lost information in the Text, and admits that this could push the time of the creation back even to 10,000 years ago.

  23. #23
    Senior Member MichaellS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    Let me show you how this question of "chance" is to be understood by the Christian regarding evolution

    Was it simply "chance"?

    Or is there something about the casting on to Jonah that makes you see God's hand in it?

    THAT......that answer is how we should view the way evolution has formed all life including humans on this earth.

    For because of our faith when we read about the casting of the Lot onto Jonah we see God's hand in it.

    But can we prove it?......no.

    There is no way to prove it was God's hand in the casting of the Lot onto Jonah....Its just due to our faith that we think that is what happened, but there is no proof.
    You will certainly have to elaborate why the Christian should feel at ease with “chance”.

    V10 But “the men knew that he was fleeing from the presence of the LORD” Or are you also saying the very pivotal New Testament verse 10 in Acts: “And they drew lots” was also “chanced”, by the activity of divination?


    What Martin was saying is that it does not matter to a Christian from a faith or salvation point of view what age of the earth is. This is because we hang our salvation and faith on the fact that there IS a God who created the earth.....and it does not matter how long ago that that happend.
    Not unless it conflicts with existing scripture.

    “It is better to take refuge in the LORD Than to trust in man.” (Psalm 118:8)
    Since you were so well accustom to Mr Ham whom you found to be deceitfully leading the sheep astray, what collection of works by Mr. Martin can you point me to that would at least begin to counter the scriptures Mr. Ham presents us with?

  24. #24
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaellS View Post
    You will certainly have to elaborate why the Christian should feel at ease with “chance”.

    V10 But “the men knew that he was fleeing from the presence of the LORD” Or are you also saying the very pivotal New Testament verse 10 in Acts: “And they drew lots” was also “chanced”, by the activity of divination?
    if you mean this story found at Acts 1:26 ?

    "Then they cast lots, and the lot fell to Matthias; so he was added to the eleven apostles."

    Then it is only by faith that the men did this to decide what person to advance into the position as being "one of the 12"

    Is there any proof that this was done by the command of the Lord?....no

    Is there any hint that God's hand was seen in the outcome?.....no

    Thus it is only by faith that any see God's hand in this drawing of the lot in that story.



    But to return to what i was saying....
    The drawing of lot is not just "random" chance, if we mean "anything could happen",for we know that the drawing of the lot will conform to the known rules of probability that govern such things.

    This is why when a scientist looks at the evolution of humans and all life on this earth and looks for proof that there was a "god' controlling the development of life, he will NOT FIND such proof!

    All of evolution and the path it has taken to develop life on the earth has always been completely within the rules that govern such things (just like drawing the lot seen above)

    But so how does a Christian look at the same facts found by science and come away with an understanding that evolution is just a tool of the Lord's hand?
    >>>>The answer is : By Faith!





    It is by faith that when I look at the history of the earth, and the evolution of life here, that I see God's hands at work.

    It is by faith that when I read the story of Jonah and the whale and see the casting of the lot onto Jonah that this was by God's hand that the lot fell on Jonah.

  25. #25
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaellS View Post
    [SIZE=3]



    Since you were so well accustom to Mr Ham whom you found to be deceitfully leading the sheep astray, what collection of works by Mr. Martin can you point me to that would at least begin to counter the scriptures Mr. Ham presents us with?
    I got to know Mr Ham as well as can be expected while attending an 8-week cl*** that he taught to a small group of students including myself.
    I also got to meet with him socially and attended a small backyard party where we shared some food and played volleyball. (He is taller than I am by the way)

    So I have no problem with who mr Ham is as a person.

    But the teachings of YEC (young Earth Creationism) are an invented lie that was dreamed up because people just did not know any better and now refuse to listen to reason.

    YEC is a false teaching....its like believing that the cross guarantees riches and all our healing and health (as the "name it and claim it" teachers teach within the church.)
    Its a false idea, taught by Christians who dont know any better.
    Last edited by alanmolstad; 01-24-2015 at 08:25 AM.

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