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Thread: Bill Nye/Ken Ham debate

  1. #26
    alanmolstad
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    now as for you request > "what collection of works by Mr. Martin can you point me to that would at least begin to counter the scriptures Mr. Ham presents us with?"

    I have no idea...

    I grew up listening to all of Martins radio shows for many years while I lived in a large city and faced many hours stuck in trafic listening to the radio.
    I have one book by Walter martin (The Kingdom of the Cults) and that is about all I have of his "works"



    I can however point you to something else that might be all I can do...and that is to tell you another story about the cl*** Ken Ham taught.

    At one point Mr Ham had made use of a blackboard, (or overhead projector, I'm not sure) and wrote down what he believed was the creation week time line of things that were made....

    Ken started his week with the idea that the first thing God made was the "light"


    At this point I asked the only question I ever asked in that cl***, I raised my hand and asked, "What does the Bible say God created first "In the beginning"?"

    I tried to point out that what the bible teaches in black and white is different than what Ken was teaching...





    I talked after cl*** about my question when I was approached by a few of the other students and they questioned me as to my point?
    I told them that "While Ken goes on and on about the "light" being created first, and then he has to struggle to invent a 'sourceless-light" to make his views conform with the text on later days, the bible actually teaches something vastly more simple"

    So I asked the guys the same question, "What does the Bible teach was the very first thing God created "In the Beginning?"

    The answer I got was "The Bible says that In the beginning God created the Heavens and the earth"

    Good answer by the way...

    So I then asked the students, "Tell me what are the heavens?"
    Last edited by alanmolstad; 01-24-2015 at 08:23 AM.

  2. #27
    alanmolstad
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    Now the truth is,,,,,of the other students that heard my question that day, a few caught my point, and a few others resisted .

    One student who strongly objected to the point I was making answered my question with> "Well Alan that may be what the Bible says, but it means something else)

    My answer to him was that Im not asking him to tell me what it means, Im only asking "What does the Bible say?"

    My point is that if you just allow the Bible to "say" what it wants to "say" then you will find that the Genesis story fits within the teachings of science and evolution, and that there most importantly is No Need to invent a "sourceless-light" just to make everything work...

  3. #28
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaellS View Post
    [SIZE=3]You will certainly have to elaborate why the Christian should feel at ease with “chance”.

    ]
    I hope by now I have been able to show how a Christian has no need to run around screaming "The sky is falling!" just because nature follows a set of rules that govern things like evolution or the casting of lots.

    The truth is that before I can talk about how"chance" fits into a story in the Bible we first have to define what me mean by the term "CHANCE".

    What we see in evolution is not just "random acts where anything could happen" rather evolution follows a set of rules about probability that govern how things like this happen.


    So in a very real way, all of the objections that Walter martin might raise in that recording against evolution are not atually against the teaching itself,but rather Martin objects to the idea that there was no hand of God always in control.

    So Martin was attacking the idea of godlessness.....

    But I have also heard Walter Martin many times during his show always allow for the vast amount of time needed for evolution to be true.
    So in doing so, Walter Martin allows for people that we might call, "Theistic evolutionists"....(People that believe God worked within evolution to create life)

  4. #29
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaellS View Post
    [SIZE=3]

    V10 But “the men knew that he was fleeing from the presence of the LORD” Or are you also saying the very pivotal New Testament verse 10 in Acts: “And they drew lots” was also “chanced”, by the activity of divination?
    There are many stories in the bible where we see men make use of casting lots to decide between two or more things.

    its a common way to do things, essentially flipping a coin.


    Now when we flip a coin we can have two views of what we are doing...
    Are we leaving the matter up to God to decide?....or are we leaving it up to dumb luck?

    When we were flipping a coin at the start of a backyard football game to see who kicks off, are we saying that "God controlled the flip"?

    What we know for sure is that the flipping of a coin, or the casting of lots has to be as fair...there cant be even the hint that one outcome was 'fixed" or the whole thing is fake.

    Thus be it with evolution, or with the casting of lots onto Jonah, it has to always appear to be subject to the rules of nature and probability that govern such things...with no outside force interfering or else the whole thing will be pointless .

    But the problem some Christian have is when they read a book about evolution and dont see it talking about "God's hand" they react as Walter martin also does by attacking the idea of a "Godless evolution"

    Yet what I think is that before we race to attack, we should first sit back and see that science and evolution are just the tools of the Master...they are not the same thing as the Master.

    They are like feeling the wind, or hearing the thunder, they might be caused by the Master but they are not the Master...

    So why should we object that a science book teaching on evolution does not talk about God?....Its so silly!
    Evolution is not God.
    You cant look at evolution and expect to see God....just like you cant feel the wind **** and think you feel "god"...nor can you look at fire and say to yourself,"That is God"

    God is not the wind

    God is not the fire.

    God is not the earthquake.


    But God can cause the wind to ****, the earth to burn, the ground to shake,just as God has used evolution to shape the form of man.
    Last edited by alanmolstad; 01-24-2015 at 10:35 AM.

  5. #30
    Senior Member MichaellS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    I hope by now I have been able to show how a Christian has no need to run around screaming "The sky is falling!" just because nature follows a set of rules that govern things like evolution or the casting of lots.

    The truth is that before I can talk about how"chance" fits into a story in the Bible we first have to define what me mean by the term "CHANCE".

    What we see in evolution is not just "random acts where anything could happen" rather evolution follows a set of rules about probability that govern how things like this happen.


    So in a very real way, all of the objections that Walter martin might raise in that recording against evolution are not atually against the teaching itself,but rather Martin objects to the idea that there was no hand of God always in control.

    So Martin was attacking the idea of godlessness.....

    But I have also heard Walter Martin many times during his show always allow for the vast amount of time needed for evolution to be true.
    So in doing so, Walter Martin allows for people that we might call, "Theistic evolutionists"....(People that believe God worked within evolution to create life)
    In the site Dr. Martin helped in the founding of we find this objection to that theory:

    Neither Human nor Theistic Evolution

  6. #31
    Senior Member MichaellS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    I got to know Mr Ham as well as can be expected while attending an 8-week cl*** that he taught to a small group of students including myself.
    I also got to meet with him socially and attended a small backyard party where we shared some food and played volleyball. (He is taller than I am by the way)

    So I have no problem with who mr Ham is as a person.

    But the teachings of YEC (young Earth Creationism) are an invented lie that was dreamed up because people just did not know any better and now refuse to listen to reason.

    YEC is a false teaching....its like believing that the cross guarantees riches and all our healing and health (as the "name it and claim it" teachers teach within the church.)
    Its a false idea, taught by Christians who dont know any better.
    “Refuse” reason? Okay, I’ll present the contention of some of the scripture from the link, that is if you count on the truth of scripture more than one’s own personal feelings. For if I only show forth my own expressions of personal belief without holding it up to the light of truth that is found in the bible, to see how it will fare, then this also refuses reason.

    Mr. Ham maintains Old Earth theorist might have trouble with this one for instance:


    “The gap theorist must also choose to ignore any evidence consistent with a belief in a young age for the earth, possibly no greater than 10,000 years. There is much evidence for this—e.g. the decay of the earth’s magnetic field, the quan***y of meteoric dust on the moon, the breakup of galaxy clusters, etc.

    Exodus 20:11 states, “For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.” Note the emphasis, “and all that in them is.” If the fossil record was in the earth after the six days of creation and before Adam sinned (as gap theorists suppose), then God would have had to make that strata during the time limit of six days, since it is an integral part of “all that in them is”!”
    Do you have objection or maintain this separate strata?

  7. #32
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaellS View Post
    “Refuse” reason? Okay, I’ll present the contention of some of the scripture from the link, that is if you count on the truth of scripture more than one’s own personal feelings. For if I only show forth my own expressions of personal belief without holding it up to the light of truth that is found in the bible, to see how it will fare, then this also refuses reason.

    Mr. Ham maintains Old Earth theorist might have trouble with this one for instance:




    Do you have objection or maintain this separate strata?
    as far as I know, the "Moon dust" arguments have been dropped from the modern printing of the books by the Young earth teachers...

    as for your question > "Do you have objection or maintain this separate strata?"
    I dont understand what you are asking me?

    Im not sure what I am objecting to?...what do you mean "strata"?

    as far as I know, NASA puts the age of the universe back in time about 13 to 16 billion years or so.....

    As far as I know there is no credible evidence that goes back farther yet...but it may be something we will learn in the future.

    i would have no trouble learning from science that the age of the whole universe is over 20 billion years...or more.

  8. #33
    alanmolstad
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    as for the "days" of genesis...thats where the Young Earther gets mixed up>


    the problem with the Young Earther and the way he does "Bible Math" is that while the YE teacher will trace back modern man to about the same date as evolution will trace back the rise of modern man, the YE teacher is then stuck with what he thinks is a whole creation of the universe just a few hours before the rise of man.


    So in other words its not the age of modern man where the YE teachers get lost at...its the fact they think the whole universe started at the same time!

    So what i do is point out to the YE teacher that while they trace back the age of the rise of modern man to the same age as evolution holds, (And thats fine) we need to look a bit closer to what the Bible actually says about theses "Days" that seem to screw up the YE thinking.


    For example...
    The days of Genesis have very clear starts and endings....for all 6 of the days...

    But what about the 7th day?

    Is there an ending tacked on to the 7th day in the Creation week story?

    How about the whole book of Genesis, is there any hint that the 7th Day has ended at any point in the book of Genesis?


    How about the whole Bible?...is there any hint that the 7th day of Genesis has ended in the bible?




    My conclusion is thus_
    If there are clear endings to 6 days in Genesis, and there is clearly NO ENDING yet seen of the 7th day, that (and here is the important part)
    That this is no accident!

  9. #34
    alanmolstad
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    so how long do I think the 7th day of Genesis has lasted so far?........millions and millions of years..


    how long with it last?.....I have no idea.

  10. #35
    Senior Member MichaellS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    as far as I know, the "Moon dust" arguments have been dropped from the modern printing of the books by the Young earth teachers...

    as for your question > "Do you have objection or maintain this separate strata?"
    I dont understand what you are asking me?

    Im not sure what I am objecting to?...what do you mean "strata"?

    as far as I know, NASA puts the age of the universe back in time about 13 to 16 billion years or so.....

    As far as I know there is no credible evidence that goes back farther yet...but it may be something we will learn in the future.

    i would have no trouble learning from science that the age of the whole universe is over 20 billion years...or more.
    Strata, which is the plural of Stratum, which is a single layer of sedimentary rocks which KH stresses the Old Earth theorist cannot have it both ways per his comment.

    “For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea and all that in them is" (Ex20:11)
    “gap theorists suppose, , the fossil record was in the earth after the six days of creation and before Adam sinned, , then God would have had to make that strata during the time limit of six days, since it is an integral part of “all that in them is”!””
    Why would He do that, just so we could believe in evolution? Com'n.

  11. #36
    Senior Member MichaellS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    as for the "days" of genesis...thats where the Young Earther gets mixed up>

    the problem with the Young Earther and the way he does "Bible Math" is that while the YE teacher will trace back modern man to about the same date as evolution will trace back the rise of modern man, the YE teacher is then stuck with what he thinks is a whole creation of the universe just a few hours before the rise of man.

    So in other words its not the age of modern man where the YE teachers get lost at...its the fact they think the whole universe started at the same time!

    So what i do is point out to the YE teacher that while they trace back the age of the rise of modern man to the same age as evolution holds, (And thats fine) we need to look a bit closer to what the Bible actually says about theses "Days" that seem to screw up the YE thinking.

    For example...
    The days of Genesis have very clear starts and endings....for all 6 of the days...

    But what about the 7th day?

    Is there an ending tacked on to the 7th day in the Creation week story?

    How about the whole book of Genesis, is there any hint that the 7th Day has ended at any point in the book of Genesis?

    How about the whole Bible?...is there any hint that the 7th day of Genesis has ended in the bible?

    My conclusion is thus_
    If there are clear endings to 6 days in Genesis, and there is clearly NO ENDING yet seen of the 7th day, that (and here is the important part)
    That this is no accident!
    Some likable commentary here. Just like in the reading of prophesy, we are not to think of ourselves too highly as we ought, but soberly. I think now I get the gist of your version of faith which confesses in it being “no accident”. On the one hand it is of a peaceable sort, but a little too laid-back for a warrior’s vigilance.

  12. #37
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaellS View Post
    Some likable commentary here. Just like in the reading of prophesy, we are not to think of ourselves too highly as we ought, but soberly. I think now I get the gist of your version of faith which confesses in it being “no accident”. On the one hand it is of a peaceable sort, but a little too laid-back for a warrior’s vigilance.
    I didnt understand a word of that, but I always try to offer to all that if I ever write something that is worth my looking at a 2nd time?...or if there is a point you have a question about?...just ask!

  13. #38
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaellS View Post
    Strata, which is the plural of Stratum, which is a single layer of sedimentary rocks which KH stresses the Old Earth theorist cannot have it both ways per his comment.





    Why would He do that, just so we could believe in evolution? Com'n.
    Im no expert in that topic...
    The Bible I know, and there is nothung in the bible that teaches against the idea that the earth hasbeen here for billions of years, and that the layers of earth we see are as they appear.....a true record of earth's history going back millions and billions of years.


    no need to invent ways around this.

    The simple truth is the best answer....the earth is old...

  14. #39
    alanmolstad
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    There are 2 questions that the Young Earth Creationist does not like to be faced with.

    Q1 - What does the Bible say God created first "in the beginning"?

    Q2 - Where in the Bible does it teach that the 7th day of Genesis is ended?

  15. #40
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    There are 2 questions that the Young Earth Creationist does not like to be faced with.

    Q1 - What does the Bible say God created first "in the beginning"?

    Q2 - Where in the Bible does it teach that the 7th day of Genesis is ended?

    And that is where we point out the flaws in Young Earth thinking...
    When I ask "What does the bible say God created first "In the beginning"? Im pointing out that Im not telling them what the text means, Im just showing them what the Text says.

    It says in black and white things that the YE teacher does not want to address.

    I dont have to twist things around to make it fit my views.
    i dont have to invent things, I dont have to pull reasons out of thin air.
    I can simply read the text as written and say...."Amen"


    When the Bible says that the first thing God made"In the beginning" was the heavens...I can say "Amen"

    the same is true for the 2nd Question I ask the YE teachers - "Where is the ending for the 7th Genesis day in the Bible?"

    The YE teachers have no answer for that question.
    They add an ending only because it needs to go there in order for Genesis to agree with young earth teachings.

    But if you dont add your own invented ending to the 7th day....If you simply read and say, "Amen" Then you read a story that fits with modern science and the teachings of evolution.......


    and "Amen" to that as well!
    Last edited by alanmolstad; 01-24-2015 at 01:43 PM.

  16. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    And that is where we point out the flaws in Young Earth thinking...
    When I ask "What does the bible say God created first "In the beginning"? Im pointing out that Im not telling them what the text means, Im just showing them what the Text says.

    It says in black and white things that the YE teacher does not want to address.

    I dont have to twist things around to make it fit my views.
    i dont have to invent things, I dont have to pull reasons out of thin air.
    I can simply read the text as written and say...."Amen"


    When the Bible says that the first thing God made"In the beginning" was the heavens...I can say "Amen"

    the same is true for the 2nd Question I ask the YE teachers - "Where is the ending for the 7th Genesis day in the Bible?"

    The YE teachers have no answer for that question.
    They add an ending only because it needs to go there in order for Genesis to agree with young earth teachings.

    But if you dont add your own invented ending to the 7th day....If you simply read and say, "Amen" Then you read a story that fits with modern science and the teachings of evolution.......


    and "Amen" to that as well!
    Tell ya what Alan, I can answer those two for myself right off the top. Then again should I?

    You have said quite a spiel up to now, but low on returning the scriptural volley, just keep on giving more rhetorical inspiration. Nothing wrong with that necessarily, but now I’m beginning to wonder if you have a personal problem with confirming that inspiration with the word of God every now and then?? And I think you know what I mean, , not every last item, but not a barrage of comments on end either.

    God bless.

  17. #42
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaellS View Post
    Tell ya what Alan, I can answer those two for myself right off the top. Then again should I?

    You have said quite a spiel up to now, but low on returning the scriptural volley, just keep on giving more rhetorical inspiration. Nothing wrong with that necessarily, but now I’m beginning to wonder if you have a personal problem with confirming that inspiration with the word of God every now and then?? And I think you know what I mean, , not every last item, but not a barrage of comments on end either.

    God bless.
    Once again,,,did not really catch that.

    But if you have a question or a doubt about something I have written, just let me know and I would be happy to have a 2nd look at the post again...

  18. #43
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaellS View Post
    [SIZE=3]Tell ya what Alan, I can answer those two for myself right off the top. Then again should I?
    "should I?"



    that part I did catch, and I yet still don't understand why you would not?

    I simply wanted to maintain a constant conversation on this website so as to encourage new posters.
    To that end I would ask that if you would like to post more of your answers to my questins, that it would be helpfull to continuing this conversation and useful toward getting more people to chime in.

  19. #44
    Senior Member MichaellS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    "should I?"



    that part I did catch, and I yet still don't understand why you would not?

    I simply wanted to maintain a constant conversation on this website so as to encourage new posters.
    To that end I would ask that if you would like to post more of your answers to my questins, that it would be helpfull to continuing this conversation and useful toward getting more people to chime in.
    Now your talking Partner. I couldn't agree more in the very spirit of your tone, , excellent!!

  20. #45
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaellS View Post
    In the site Dr. Martin helped in the founding of we find this objection to that theory:

    Neither Human nor Theistic Evolution
    I have written personally to Hank on this problem he has understanding Genesis....LOL


    Hank is just flat-out wrong about much of what he thinks and teaches on Genesis...

  21. #46
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaellS View Post
    [SIZE=3]Tell ya what Alan, I can answer those two for myself right off the top. Then again should I?

    You have said quite a spiel up to now, but low on returning the scriptural volley,]
    IfI understand this part of your comments, (And I much confess that I dont understand a bunch of things from your posts in general) I believe you are asking for a step by step, verse by verse examination of what I think is being talked about in the Genesis story?


    I shall go find a useful OT Bible Text website that has the text up so I can copy-paste and I will start going over the different verses and adding my own comments as to what it is talking about.


    The only reason I have not done that so far is that Im more into just showing people what the Genesis story "says".....and I try not to be too forward in teaching them what i think it "means"


    My reasoning is that what I think it "means" is just the very same as to what it "says"

    Therefore I start out by only asking people "What does it say?
    I ask "What does it say?" because most of not all of the Young Earth Teachings are not based on what the Text says, but what teachers like Morris and Ham thought it "means" regardless of what it actually "says"

  22. #47
    alanmolstad
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    Genesis 1 (New International Version)


    1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.


    Here we see the first things God made.
    "The heavens" is clearly listed first of all the things God would go later on to make.
    What is the "heavens"?

    The answer is that in the Bible we see many different things talked about and named "Heaven" or "Heavens"
    Now of these many different things, we do see the idea for the full canopy of stars in the night sky....
    So the idea of the "stars" is well within the scope of different meanings the bible will use in connection to the term "Heavens"

    So "stars" = "Heavens"
    This seems clear enough as to what the Bible wants us to understand as the first things God made in the beginning....Stars, but also all the other things up there in the stars, for the term "Heavens is not just talking about the stars like our sun, but also "all in the heavens"is the context i get from this 1st verse of Genesis...

    To me this includes the many things we do find in outer space besides just the stars.

    So right at the start of Genesis we find an idea that fits nicely within the concepts of the Big Bang idea as well as what we know from modern science as to how the universe evolved.

    It has one different however....the Bible is very sure who caused this to happen..."God created"
    The idea that God Created this universe is not an idea found in science at all.
    There is no known way to test for a God in science, thus we should never expect to read that one day science proved "God did it"

  23. #48
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    2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep,


    "The deep" is a term that mostly and ONLY is talking about waters....
    The word "deep" shows us that we are not just talking about a little stream, but rather we are dealing with seas of water...vast seas....


    "the earth was formless and empty"....the word "was" here, is tricky, for it is based on a word that can mean both "was" or it can mean "became"
    and in many ways this is true here too.

    We should keep this in mind as we read this section, that the earth was or became something.
    What was it?...... "Formless and empty"


    What do we take Formless and empty to mean?....
    Well "formless" is talking about a foggy uncertainty to the outline.
    The earth is still there, the earth is still real...still hard ground...
    But it's outline is unsure as seen here...

    In Bible school the image I was taught as to what this "formlessness" was talking about was that you were to imagine standing on a road on a very foggy day.
    You hear a sound.....the sound grows louder and louder...the sound now resembles the sound of a large truck.
    But as you look into the fog you cant see the truck yet.

    the sound grows....now you start to see a dark shape on the road....its hard to see, but its clearly something.



    The truck was always there, always real, always made of hard steel and iron....But as you looked at it from your view point it was "formless"

  24. #49
    alanmolstad
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    "the earth was formless and empty"


    The word "empty" is only talking about a lack or people.

    The image I have is that of a large sports arena, with seating for many, yet its before the game starts and so all the seats are empty.

    The earth was created empty, but its a type of emptyness that expects to be "filled"

  25. #50
    alanmolstad
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    shall I go on?.....

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