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Thread: different yet in union.

  1. #26
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by theway View Post
    Whether or not I trust God was not germane to my question.
    you?....You personaly I have no idea about.

    But the fact is that a lot of the people that dont want to believe in a God that can control the universe is because they dont like the idea of a god who could....

    In other words....they dont trust their current concept of "God".

  2. #27
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by theway View Post
    It sounds more and more like I have no free will to do what I want to do, and that the Skipper/God is forcing me to bend to His will by taking away mine?
    Again, from what source does man receive his freewill?..........answer- "God"

    So what this means is that God has given onto man a measure of freewill, without it being a threat to God in the slightest way.

    This means that as to the question of believing or not, that we are called to believe, and that unless we hear that call, repent and believe, we will remain lost.

    God does not force us to believe in Him....God stands at the door and knocks.


    This is why Jesus sent his men out into the world to teach and make believers of men.
    Because unless we go preaching, the lost remain lost.

  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by RealFakeHair View Post
    Okay then, what does Monty Python got to do with Salvation? Wait, don't tell me.
    Really???
    Have you not seen Monty Python's The Meaning of Life either..... You poor kid.

  4. #29
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by theway View Post
    Unless of course you were just trying to be clever/funny, if that was the case then you failed yet again.
    .
    on this point,,,,I have to agree with you.

    a little of him goes a lonnnnnng way

  5. #30
    alanmolstad
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    and that is why I say that on the question of how men find salvation, there are two different points of view working in union at the same time.

    Both different than the other.

    Both correct.


    When you look at the salvation of man from the POV of mankind, then you see how we have freewill

    but when you look at the same question from God's point of view, then you see how all things are under the command of God and were always part of His plan where none were lost from before the world was made.

  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    Again, from what source does man receive his freewill?..........answer- "God"

    So what this means is that God has given onto man a measure of freewill, without it being a threat to God in the slightest way.

    This means that as to the question of believing or not, that we are called to believe, and that unless we hear that call, repent and believe, we will remain lost.

    God does not force us to believe in Him....God stands at the door and knocks.


    This is why Jesus sent his men out into the world to teach and make believers of men.
    Because unless we go preaching, the lost remain lost.
    LOL.... Oh so now I'm reduced to just "a measure of freewill"

    Begs the question... Is there then a level of freewill which could override God?

  7. #32
    alanmolstad
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    so man has freewill .....

    yes, it's limited.
    yes it's what makes us able to return God's love.....for without freewill we are robots.

    but at the same time I and filled with joy to learn and understand that before the universe was started 14 or more billion years ago, that even before all things, God had decided that I would be saved and nothing would place this in doubt.



    I rest from worry, for my salvation was never in doubt with my lord...
    He was always in full control from before the big bang and on to the very last moment of time.
    Last edited by alanmolstad; 02-27-2014 at 03:39 PM.

  8. #33
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by theway View Post
    LOL.... Oh so now I'm reduced to just "a measure of freewill"

    Begs the question... Is there then a level of freewill which could override God?
    nope....
    be like the question of God making a rock so big he cant lift it...

    Some people asked me "Can your God do anything?"
    My answer is that "God can do only the things that are within His nature"

    "oh , so your god is weak and cant do everything?..LOL"

    "My God cant act against his own nature"


    The freewill we have is a gift.
    the gift is from God who controls all the universe.

    God cant lose his authority..If he could then that would be acting against god's nature..if he could then he would not be the true god and we would need to find another
    Last edited by alanmolstad; 02-27-2014 at 03:38 PM.

  9. #34
    RealFakeHair
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    nope....
    be like the question of God making a rock so big he cant lift it...

    Some people asked me "Can your God do anything?"
    My answer is that "God can do only the things that are within His nature"

    "oh , so your god is weak and cant do everything?..LOL"

    "My God cant act against his own nature"


    The freewill we have is a gift.

    the gift is from God who controls all the universe.
    I look at it as a catch 22. Yes we have freewill, but God knows our choice, before the world was created.

  10. #35
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by RealFakeHair View Post
    I look at it as a catch 22. Yes we have freewill, but God knows our choice, before the world was created.

    Good point to bring up RFhair,
    But, keep in mind that God does not just sit back and foresee our world...

    God is ACTIVE.....God predestined us...

    Our salvation is an active work of God in our lives......

  11. #36
    RealFakeHair
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    on this point,,,,I have to agree with you.

    a little of him goes a lonnnnnng way
    That hurt too!

  12. #37
    RealFakeHair
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    Good point to bring up RFhair,
    But, keep in mind that God does not just sit back and foresee our world...

    God is ACTIVE.....God predestined us...

    Our salvation is an active work of God in our lives......
    Yeah, I am predestine to win the lottery when I am 84 years old

  13. #38
    alanmolstad
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    so God is not trapped in time, thus time has no hold on God and so God does not have to cheat and "check the back of the book" to see how things turn out.

    God knows all there is to know.
    So before the universe was created God already knew I would be saved.
    But God also knew that my salvation was not just an accident, nor was it ever in doubt.

    God knows that my salvation is ONLY the direct result of His Predestination of it happening...

    God's plan from the beginning took into account all things, including my freewill.
    Without His active work in my life, my salvation would never happen.

    and an important part of my salvation was and is my freewill...and always was.
    My freewill was also predestined.
    Last edited by alanmolstad; 02-27-2014 at 03:56 PM.

  14. #39
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by RealFakeHair View Post
    That hurt too!
    You'll live

  15. #40
    alanmolstad
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    a lot of people find it hard to understand what I'm talking about when I say that its a matter of two different points of view that are "different" yet in "agreement"???

    Im going to try to make this more easy to understand how it is true.



    The main problem is that it is hard to see things from what would be God's point of view, as no one actually knows what that is like..LOL

    But we can make use of many mental images to get a small grasp of this issue, and that may help us understand the point I'm making here.

    So, here is an image for your mind that may help you get to the heart of what I'm sharing.



    We are held by time and space.
    Our bodies, our thinking, are always limited to being about one moment of time, and in one point in space.

    But God is not limited as we are.
    God is not held by time.
    God is not limited to one point in space.

    Thus there is a big difference when we look at all of history,(both the past , the now, and the future) and when God himself looks at all of history.

    We are held in time, so when we think of the past or the future it is like we page-back in a book or page-forward in the book of time.
    If we want to deal with things in the future, we think of opening the book near the back to see what happens later.

    If we want to think about stuff that has already happened, we turn pages in our mental book of time to review the things that have already happened.

    So in many ways, when we think about the past or the future we use a mental book to page forward or backward.


    But when God views the past, the "now" , or the future He does so as one who is not bound to any such concepts.
    God is outside time's hold.

    So in many ways, when God looks at all of history its more like when we look at a finished painting, like the Mona Lisa.

    There is no start to the painting...
    You don't page-back, you don't page-ahead to view parts of the finished painting.

    Rather what you do is take in the whole of the painting at once.

    Yes, you can move in for a closer look at different brush strokes, but the painting itself has no timeline to be viewed.
    You don't start looking at a painting like the Mona Lisa by starting at the top left-hand corner, scanning across the top, then dropping down a 1/4 inch and scanning across that next section.

    You view the Mona Lisa by taking it all in.....each part of the painting appears at the same time....no past, no future.



    In a way, that is how God views history too...
    Last edited by alanmolstad; 02-28-2014 at 08:05 AM.

  16. #41
    alanmolstad
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    Now that we see how God looks at time, we can also see how He looks at what we think of as being the "unwritten future"


    When we look at the future we don't have a clue whats going to happen.
    From our point of view, the future is unwritten.

    From God's point of view, the future is as set in stone as the past is to us.
    The future is unknown to us because it is out of our reach.
    We humans cant see the future, we cant control it because we are always trapped here in front of the future by time.

    But God is not trapped by time.
    So in the eyes of God, the future is not only known by his foresight, it's experienced by him as much as God experiences our "now".

    God is already in the future as much as He is with us right here in our "now"

    So in God's eyes, all that will ever be, was known to him from before it was begun.

    And, (here is the part about our salvation) this means that before the universe was created 14 Billion years ago, God already knew my eternal state.
    God knew I was going to be a saved Christian.

    But God did not just "page-ahead" and happen to notice I became saved on my own.

    NO!

    God is active always!
    God is always fully involved throughout all time.
    Thus God knew that my salvation was not just an accident, but that if left on my own God knew that I was eternal LOST!.
    So this means that God knew from the beginning that my salvation was the direct result of HIS work!

    God deserves all the credit for my salvation.
    My salvation was always in God's plan from the beginning.......it had to be or else it would never happen!


    So then this is what I know, that before God made the universe he yet loved me and designed me and predestined my whole life and my future so that I would fulfill His plans for me.


    This is why it says that he whom God foreknew he also predestined...
    Last edited by alanmolstad; 02-28-2014 at 08:09 AM.

  17. #42
    alanmolstad
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    But humans are trapped in time.
    We don't know the future.

    And this is very real....

    This is why we are told that unless we repent and believe we remain lost.
    It's because we are mortal.

    This is why we in the church are sent out into the world to save sinners and be the light to the world.
    It's because we are all mortal.
    We are trapped in time.
    We don't know the future.

    From our point of view, all of the future is "unwritten"
    Nothing is set in stone.

    This is why the people that we preach to and baptize are truly saved....
    It's because we are mortal.
    And mortal things are born, they die, they decide things...and the things they decide matter.


    We have freewill.
    It's very limited freewill to be sure, as its always within the gift granted us by our lord,
    But it is none the less true freewill.

    Our freewill allows us to decide things....it allows us to give our hearts to another out of love.
    But freewill is also expensive.

    God knew the price He would have to pay for granting us freewill.
    But God considered us worth it.

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