Personal Anecdotal Stories Do Not Make a Church True or Untrue

[Libby]

I have noticed that some people like to use their own personal anecdotal stories to try and prove a point about the LDS Church. Do personal stories really make a church (any church) true or not true? I don't think so.

I've had both good and bad experiences with people, in every single church I've ever been ***ociated with (and that's many, I'm here to tell ya! ). I'm a seeker and I've been in and out of a lot of churches. There are good and bad people in every church, although, I must say, my experiences, in most churches (including the LDS Church) were all very good. I have come to believe in the law of attraction...that we attract what we, ourselves, project. I try to see the good in people, even when it's not obvious. I believe that has helped shape some of my experiences. But, those experiences with people (good or bad) are not really the determining factor in whether or not a church is teaching truth.

The basic question is how do you determine spiritual truths?

I know non-LDS Christians will point to the Bible. And, I think Latter-day Saints will point to revelation or Holy Ghost witness. But, how do you know if you are interpreting the Bible correctly (for Christians) or that your "witness" is really from God (to LDS).

I have my own ideas, but I'd like to hear yours.

Please, let's not allow this thread to get contentious. Listen to one another and have a real conversation.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Do personal stories really make a church (any church) true or not true? I don't think so.

Nor does my beliefs prove or disprove the truthfulness of the LDS church--yet you seemed to believe that they did. What a double standard Libby.

[BigJulie]

Thank you for this post Libby. Yes, I agree, we can find good and bad everywhere and in every faith.

I have an evangelical friend who was in the middle of a law suit with a Mormon at the same time his own evangelical church was falling apart and was on the attack of his family. He said something very wise to me. He said, "I have learned that here are good and bad Mormons and there are good and bad "christians'."

I really struggle on this board when anyone ever says "Mormons..."and then stereotypes all of us into one big lump. We are all individuals. We all think for ourselves (regardless of any arguments otherwise) and we all have our own reasons for thinking and feeling as we do.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Thank you for this post Libby. Yes, I agree, we can find good and bad everywhere and in every faith.

I have an evangelical friend who was in the middle of a law suit with a Mormon at the same time his own evangelical church was falling apart and was on the attack of his family. He said something very wise to me. He said, "I have learned that here are good and bad Mormons and there are good and bad "christians'."

I really struggle on this board when anyone ever says "Mormons..."and then stereotypes all of us into one big lump. We are all individuals. We all think for ourselves (regardless of any arguments otherwise) and we all have our own reasons for thinking and feeling as we do.

Thanks for the response, Julie. Yes, stereotyping is never a good thing. Always unfair and mostly inaccurate, when a whole group of people is broad brushed with the same wide brush. LDS, like all other groups, are very diverse.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Nor does my beliefs prove or disprove the truthfulness of the LDS church--yet you seemed to believe that they did. What a double standard Libby.

Sorry, I'm not following you, Billy. I don't recall saying "your" beliefs proved or disproved anything.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Sorry, I'm not following you, Billy. I don't recall saying "your" beliefs proved or disproved anything.

Then why should I answer questions about what I believe since it makes no difference in proving Mormonism true or false? Don't you remember talking about this?

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Then why should I answer questions about what I believe since it makes no difference in proving Mormonism true or false? Don't you remember talking about this?

Not exactly in the way you are putting it, no. But, that's really beside the point, as "beliefs" are not the same as anecdotal stories. I'm talking about the he/she done me wrong, kind of stories, bringing them into a conversation, as if that proves something about "the church".

Do you think those kinds of stories prove a church is true or untrue?

Is there a church out there with all perfect people? I sure haven't found it yet.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Do you think those kinds of stories prove a church is true or untrue?

Nope.

Do you think that my beliefs makes the LDS church true or false?

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Nope.

Do you think that my beliefs makes the LDS church true or false?

Not sure what you mean. Belief is a multi-sided issue. On the one hand, beliefs, alone, do not make something true. On the other hand, our "beliefs" (true or false) can certainly create a personal reality that has some truth to it.

On the "third" hand there really is no absolute truth in this three dimensional world of duality. It's all ying and yang...delusion...from a certain perspective (from God's perspective).

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Not sure what you mean.

You know exactly what I mean.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

You know exactly what I mean.

No, I don't.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

No, I don't.

Sure you do.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Sure you do.

I do remember, to what you were referring, now. You have said, a couple of times, in response to questions about your beliefs, that your beliefs have no bearing on whether or not Mormonism is true.

You have to forgive me, as I really do, sometimes, forget conversations, and need a reminder. I am very busy with other things, plus I am older and my memory is not as good as it used to be. Sometimes, it needs a little jolt!

I am, fortunately, in very good health, for my 66 years, so I'm not complaining about an occasional memory lapse (especially, knowing that others, even younger than me, have much more serious health issues). But, I am, honestly, not ever "lying" to you, when I say I don't recall, so please be patient and just give me reminder. Thanks!

[Libby]

Anyway, I'm not sure that there is a correlation between "your beliefs don't make the church true or untrue" and anecdotal stories.

Critics often use their beliefs as the "standard" against which they judge Mormon doctrine to be untrue.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Anyway, I'm not sure that there is a correlation between "your beliefs don't make the church true or untrue" and anecdotal stories.

The LDS church is true or false independent of what I believe. That is fact.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

The LDS church is true or false independent of what I believe. That is fact.

I will accept that, in regards to church history and even the Book of Mormon archaeology, but when it comes to doctrine, you have to have some basis, on which to call it "false". That basis, for most critics, is their interpretation of the Bible.

[Snow Patrol]

Originally Posted by Libby

Anyway, I'm not sure that there is a correlation between "your beliefs don't make the church true or untrue" and anecdotal stories.

Critics often use their beliefs as the "standard" against which they judge Mormon doctrine to be untrue.

I think it is more accurate to say that critics often use their expierences with LDS members to determine whether the doctrines to be true or not.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

I will accept that, in regards to church history and even the Book of Mormon archaeology, but when it comes to doctrine, you have to have some basis, on which to call it "false". That basis, for most critics, is their interpretation of the Bible.

The basis is that it doesn't line up with their own scriptures. But an atheist could point that out just as well.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Snow Patrol

I think it is more accurate to say that critics often use their expierences with LDS members to determine whether the doctrines to be true or not.

Yes, I've seen that fairly often, especially, on this board, which is why I started this thread.

At least, using one's interpretation of the Bible, as a standard, is a "bit" more objective, than overwrought feelings about Mormons. I never could understand LDS who left over personal insult, because the church is either true or not true, and someone insulting you, doesn't really change that.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

What if I was an atheist? Then what?

Then, I doubt an argument from the Bible, would be launched (as many critics here tend to do). Most atheists are going to be coming from the point of view that all religion is a bunch of hooey. They will try to discredit the Bible, as well as the Book of Mormon, and anything else on which religion is based.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Snow Patrol

I think it is more accurate to say that critics often use their expierences with LDS members to determine whether the doctrines to be true or not.

I don't at all. The LDS doctrine is true or false based on if it is lines up with the Bible.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Then, I doubt an argument from the Bible, would be launched (as many critics here tend to do).

Many atheists (agnostics) are well versed in the Bible. Look at Bart Ehrman who is agnostic, he is one highly knowledgeable about the issues of NT m****cripts and textual criticism.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Many atheists (agnostics) are well versed in the Bible. Look at Bart Ehrman who is agnostic, he is one of the most knowledgeable people alive on the issues of NT m****cripts and textual criticism.

Yes, I know. That's what I said. They will try to discredit the Bible and anything else on which religion is based.

I think Ehrman considered himself an atheist, did he not? He p***ed away, just recently.

[Snow Patrol]

I agree with the insult stuff. While I was on my mission, we had an investigator attend one Fast and Testimony meeting. Unfortunately, it was one of those infamous non-testimony meetings that we all experience now and then. She left in a huff and as we caught up with her later I explained that indeed the Church was made up of imperfect people and that is the whole reason we have churches. We had the most incredible experience after that as I bore my personal testimony to her. She was changed 180 degrees after that going from doubting everything we taught her to defending everything we taught to her and her friend. It was not my testimony that did that, but the Spirit.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Snow Patrol

It was not my testimony that did that, but the Spirit.

The spirit doesn't testify to false doctrine.