How to Remove Your Name from the LDS Records

[RealFakeHair]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

well......thats another story, but actually when you read the story you don't get that eve sinned first.

Rather there is a weird collusion between the man and Satan that led to Eve being misled as to what the law stated....

remember when Eve stated the law according to how she was taught?......
She states the law incorrectly.
Adam is "there with her" at the time, and does not correct her.

satan is there too, and while we dont know for sure that satan knew what God had told Adam, we do see that Satan seems very knowledgeable as to what God had said to adam.
What is clear is that Satan does not correct Eve too.

So both Adam and Satan heard the error that eve makes about the only law that was given at the time, and both say nothing to correct her.



It is also very important that we understand that when God confronts adam about the sin, Adam points to Eve right away .
Adam did this knowing all the time that the punishment for eating was death.
so Adam knew when he pointed at Eve as being to blame for the sin that this was likely going to mean that god would kill Eve.

the speed that Adam points to eve is not an accident.
Adam treats Eve not as an equal, but as a thing.
The moment he points to her he is telling god, "Kill her"

Women never listen anyways

[alanmolstad]

now as for when did Satan fall?....and was it before Adam sinned?....the bible is not clear about that.

I have read of a verse that has been said to teach that satan was enjoying a correct relationship with god as Satan walked in the garden.
if this is correct, that puts the fall of Satan into the very same story of the fall of man.
They happened at the same time, more or less.

This does fit the best into what God says to satan after the fall of man and the "he will crush your head" statement.

In other bible verses we learn that satan fell when he wanted the position of god, and wanted to be "like the Most high"

Well think about that for a moment, satan wanted to look like god, but in front of other angels?....I dont think so.

the angels, even the fallen angels all knew better.
The angels always knew that satan was not God.

but men are not so wise.
men are always confusing Satan with being God, (look at Smith's life for example)
So if satan was serious about wanting the position of God, then this may show us that it was not until men walked the earth that Satan felt this need to be like god....because men can be tricked into believing Satan is God, whereas angels know the real God at all times.

[alanmolstad]

http://www.utlm.org/onlineresources/...ovalletter.htm

[RealFakeHair]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

now as for when did Satan fall?....and was it before Adam sinned?....the bible is not clear about that.

I have read of a verse that has been said to teach that satan was enjoying a correct relationship with god as Satan walked in the garden.
if this is correct, that puts the fall of Satan into the very same story of the fall of man.
They happened at the same time, more or less.

This does fit the best into what God says to satan after the fall of man and the "he will crush your head" statement.

In other bible verses we learn that satan fell when he wanted the position of god, and wanted to be "like the Most high"

Well think about that for a moment, satan wanted to look like god, but in front of other angels?....I dont think so.

the angels, even the fallen angels all knew better.
The angels always knew that satan was not God.

but men are not so wise.
men are always confusing Satan with being God, (look at Smith's life for example)
So if satan was serious about wanting the position of God, then this may show us that it was not until men walked the earth that Satan felt this need to be like god....because men can be tricked into believing Satan is God, whereas angels know the real God at all times.

Well then Eve must have been a looker because pretty women always turn me into a little devil.

[Phoenix]

Originally Posted by James Banta

Adam disobeyed God. That was the fall.. There was no man that ever disobeyed God before that..

RealFakeHair already figured out the "problem" with your statement:
Eve was disobeying God before Adam fell, and before she and Adam got kicked out of the garden. Therefore, according to the Bible, the reason human beings sin isn't because Adam sinned. Human beings were able to disobey God even while Adam and Eve were still in the garden, and from that time up until the present day, human beings are able to sin all by themselves. Adam didn't cause anyone to sin.

Yes it a bit like asking where the man was when he jumped off the bridge but in reality no man sinned before Adam did so.

But a woman sinned before Adam did, don't you believe that?

Adam was the only man that sinned and until that day no sin existed before God.. IHS jim

Does the Bible support your claim that no sin existed in the world until Adam sinned?

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Phoenix

But a woman sinned before Adam did, don't you believe that?

that is not how the story reads....

I have already posted my views on this matter...see post #50

[theway]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

It is also very important that we understand that when God confronts adam about the sin, Adam points to Eve right away .
Adam did this knowing all the time that the punishment for eating was death.
so Adam knew when he pointed at Eve as being to blame for the sin that this was likely going to mean that god would kill Eve.

the speed that Adam points to eve is not an accident.
Adam treats Eve not as an equal, but as a thing.
The moment he points to her he is telling god, "Kill her"

I believe it may have been Adam's plan all along.

This willingness to kill another , even someone so close to themselves, was not lost on Adam's children as we read in the story of Cain...

Please... That's just silly talk.
Adam and Eve had no concept of good and evil... They also had no concept of death even after they ate from the tree.

It would be like me giving you a grape and telling you that if you eat it you will be "vermoosed".
How in the world would you know whether it was a good thing or a bad thing I was telling you? Especially if you didn't know the difference between good and bad or what vermoosed meant?

[RealFakeHair]

Originally Posted by theway

Please... That's just silly talk.
Adam and Eve had no concept of good and evil... They also had no concept of death even after they ate from the tree.

It would be like me giving you a grape and telling you that if you eat it you will be "vermoosed".
How in the world would you know whether it was a good thing or a bad thing I was telling you? Especially if you didn't know the difference between good and bad or what vermoosed meant?

But they did wear matching colors.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by theway

Please... That's just silly talk.
Adam and Eve had no concept of good and evil...

What Im saying fits within the story.
What Im saying is in agreement with the facts and with what people did, and with what was said.

Satan addressed Eve, although we learn later that her husband (Adam) was there with her.
Eve is asked as to what god had said?
Eve answers with what god said, (But we also know that god did not say anything to eve but rather all Eve knew came to her via what Adam told her god had told him.

Eve makes an error in her answer as to what god had said.

Adam who is right there,does not correct eve's error.

Satan who also is right there, also does not correct her.

Adam is the husband of Eve, so regardless of who was at fault for eating, the correct thing to do when God confronts Adam was for Adam to take all the blame and ask god to forgive his wife.
Adam did not do that.

Adam points to eve as to blame.
Adam points to eve knowing that if God does blame Eve she will be killed.

This is why later when God speaks to Eve he tells her"your desire shall be to your husband, and he will rule over you"

This statement to Eve was something that Eve just saw to be true.
Remember God had created man and women to both 'rule" over the earth together.
But now Eve just saw her husband treat her as also something he got to "rule" over.

Why did Eve give the food to Adam?.....it was out of love.

My suggestion to this story is that Adam was attempting to make use of his wife in an effort to eat and not die.

[neverending]

Originally Posted by theway

Please... That's just silly talk.
Adam and Eve had no concept of good and evil... They also had no concept of death even after they ate from the tree.

It would be like me giving you a grape and telling you that if you eat it you will be "vermoosed".
How in the world would you know whether it was a good thing or a bad thing I was telling you? Especially if you didn't know the difference between good and bad or what vermoosed meant?

If Adam and Eve had no concept of good and evil, then why was Adam embarr***ed about being naked? And why then did he cover himself and Eve with fig leaves? Before that time, to me they were very childlike in how they thought and behaved. That is why God told them NOT to eat of the tree because he had warned them. What verses do you have to defend your claim that Adam and Eve had no concept of good and evil or death? They knew they would die at some point and especially so once they were forced out of the Garden of Eden. You forget, it was GOD who conversed with these two all the time they lived in the Garden. They trusted God, why wouldn't they? Please get your Bible and read, Gen. 3:19 for Adam knew from conversing with God that both he and Eve would die because of their sin of eating of the fruit. So, your comment here must be your own opinion for it does not follow what God's word tells us.

[RealFakeHair]

Originally Posted by neverending

If Adam and Eve had no concept of good and evil, then why was Adam embarr***ed about being naked? And why then did he cover himself and Eve with fig leaves? Before that time, to me they were very childlike in how they thought and behaved. That is why God told them NOT to eat of the tree because he had warned them. What verses do you have to defend your claim that Adam and Eve had no concept of good and evil or death? They knew they would die at some point and especially so once they were forced out of the Garden of Eden. You forget, it was GOD who conversed with these two all the time they lived in the Garden. They trusted God, why wouldn't they? Please get your Bible and read, Gen. 3:19 for Adam knew from conversing with God that both he and Eve would die because of their sin of eating of the fruit. So, your comment here must be your own opinion for it does not follow what God's word tells us.

It would really be a sin if someone saw me naked, but that's another story.
We must remember the LDSinc. believe it was a good thing for Adam and Eve to disobey God. Right here is one of many mistakes of Joseph Smith jr. imaginary mind.

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by theway

That is not what you said... Here is what you said before you decided you needed to backpedal.


Adam was the only man that sinned and until that day no sin existed before God..

This was my first post on this subject:

Adam disobeyed God. That was the fall.. There was no man that ever disobeyed God before that.. Yes it a bit like asking where the man was when he jumped off the bridge but in reality no man sinned before Adam did so. This is according to the Bible. If you want to force your own self serving beliefs that tells you that other men existed as Adam lived in the garden, that is your personal distorted beliefs. There is no such teaching found in the Bible. Satan was never a man. Those angelic beings that followed him were never men. Adam was the only man that sinned and until that day no sin existed before God.. IHS jim

Can you see where I said that "There was no man that ever disobeyed God before that.. "? I stand by that first statement, that Adam was the first man that sinned.. I stand by the statement that Satan was never a man.. No other man before Adam ever existed, no other man could therefore have sinned.. There is no backpedaling there except in your mind and your inability to understand that I was saying.. Read it again I was clear NO OTHER MAN EVER DISOBEYED GOD.. That wasn't in the above post it was the first one I commented on what the Bible said about what was done and who did it.. Go look you will see that I have been 100% consistent.. IHS jim

[theway]

Originally Posted by neverending

If Adam and Eve had no concept of good and evil, then why was Adam embarr***ed about being naked? And why then did he cover himself and Eve with fig leaves? Before that time, to me they were very childlike in how they thought and behaved. That is why God told them NOT to eat of the tree because he had warned them. What verses do you have to defend your claim that Adam and Eve had no concept of good and evil or death? They knew they would die at some point and especially so once they were forced out of the Garden of Eden. You forget, it was GOD who conversed with these two all the time they lived in the Garden. They trusted God, why wouldn't they? Please get your Bible and read, Gen. 3:19 for Adam knew from conversing with God that both he and Eve would die because of their sin of eating of the fruit. So, your comment here must be your own opinion for it does not follow what God's word tells us.

The only one who is not following here is you... Try to keep up.

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by theway

The only one who is not following here is you... Try to keep up.

It appears that NE has fully understood the flow of the the thread.. IHS jim

[neverending]

Originally Posted by theway

The only one who is not following here is you... Try to keep up.

Excuse ME!!! Was it NOT you who was saying that Adam and Eve had no idea that they would die nor did they know good from evil after eating the forbidden fruit? Your exact words, "Adam and Eve had no concept of good and evil... They also had no concept of death even after they ate from the tree."
So, I gave you my answer and even gave you a verse in Genesis which you could have looked up but guess that would have taken to much effort. I think you are out to lunch.....Not theway.

[James Banta]

[Phoenix;153575]RealFakeHair already figured out the "problem" with your statement:
Eve was disobeying God before Adam fell, and before she and Adam got kicked out of the garden. Therefore, according to the Bible, the reason human beings sin isn't because Adam sinned. Human beings were able to disobey God even while Adam and Eve were still in the garden, and from that time up until the present day, human beings are able to sin all by themselves. Adam didn't cause anyone to sin.

I am including Eve with Adam in the first sin.. God dealt with it as one sin and the punishment came onto both of them the same way.. They died that very day..

When God created man he pronounced that creation as good (Gen 1:32). Then Adam sinned, man fell and the Holy Spirit revealed the state of man's corruption:

Psalm 53:3
Every one of them is gone back: they are altogether become filthy; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

God through the prophet has agreed

Isaiah 64:6
But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

But a woman sinned before Adam did, don't you believe that?

Previously explained

Does the Bible support your claim that no sin existed in the world until Adam sinned?

This was also previously explained but I want you to see it again through God's word.. The Bible doesn't teach that it is because of Adam and Eve's sin all men die. It says "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive"(1 Corinthians 15:22), And "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death p***ed upon all men, for that all have sinned" (Romans 5:12).. So before you start accusing me for being wrong about using Adam's name and not Eve's as the first sinner complain to God for that decision.. IHS jim

[Phoenix]

Originally Posted by James Banta

I am including Eve with Adam in the first sin..

Oh.

God dealt with it as one sin and the punishment came onto both of them the same way.. They died that very day..

So that same day that Eve ate the apple and then had Adam eat it next, that same day they both died? But doesn't the Bible say that Adam died like 930 years after the apple eating incident? (Genesis 5:5)

When God created man he pronounced that creation as good (Gen 1:32).

The issue is whether humans were able to disobey God before Adam and Eve had all those children and grandchildren. Adam and Eve pretty much proved that it wasn't impossible for humans to disobey God, right from the beginning.
This proves that all us descendants of Adam and Eve had the ability to disobey God all by ourselves, regardless what the first two humans did. That is because each of us has the same freedom to make bad choices that Adam and Eve had. They proved that we didn't inherit some "sin" DNA from them. After all, if they could disobey God, then who put the sin DNA into them?

The Bible doesn't teach that it is because of Adam and Eve's sin all men die.

So you're claiming that only Adam's sin that counted, even though he was the second person to eat the fruit? Why would that be? How is that fair?

".... as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death p***ed upon all men, for that all have sinned" (Romans 5:12)..

So before you start accusing me for being wrong about using Adam's name and not Eve's as the first sinner complain to God for that decision.

My point was merely that it's not Adam's fault that we sin. It's not Eve's fault, either, if that makes you feel any better.

The verse could be saying that since Adam got here first, everything that happened afterward happened "by one man."
If Adam had never arrived on the scene, Eve wouldn't have either, since she was made from a piece of him, the Bible says. Through Adam, Eve happened, so through Adam, the first act of disobedience entered the human race. But that is irrelevant to the real point, which is that the myth of a "sin nature" that we all inherited from Adam is a myth. We sin because we choose to, not because Adam's sin forces us to. No one forced Adam to sin, and he didn't have an inherited sin nature. Do you disagree with that?

[alanmolstad]

does the Bible ever blame the fall onto eve?......do we suffer death due to Adam's sin, or the sin of Adam and eve?....what does the bible say?

[alanmolstad]

as far as i know, the bible does blame Eve for the first sin.

What it says about her is that she was deceived.....in other words, she was fooled.

However Adam was not fooled....Adam was not deceived at all, but knew full well what he was doing.

[alanmolstad]

Jim, help me out here with this topic:

I dont get why a Mormon would carry on so in the effort to try to blame Eve, when the bible simply does not blame her for the sin?

The Bible is so clear as to who God blames for the first sin, why would the Mormons struggle so to disagree with the bible on this issue?

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Jim, help me out here with this topic:

I dont get why a Mormon would carry on so in the effort to try to blame Eve, when the bible simply does not blame her for the sin?

The Bible is so clear as to who God blames for the first sin, why would the Mormons struggle so to disagree with the bible on this issue?

All I can think of is the belief that Adam really never sinned at all.. He provided a way to have us all enter the next step along their eternal progression trail. From a spirit life in heaven with God to that of mortality. You must have heard them call it "A fall upward".. They never refer to the Fall as a sin. They have cheapened it to being only a transgression.. Like somehow transgression is less serious than a sin.. So to blame Adam for sin in foreign to them.. Instead of saying Adam was a sinner they will blame Eve for the sin and hold Adam up as a christ like being.. After all it their doctrine that Adam aided Jesus in the creation of the world.. In LDS doctrine Young was right Adam is a god, ("Jehovah, Michael, see matter unorganized").. In mormonism Jehovah is Jesus, and Michael is Adam. IHS jim

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by James Banta

All I can think of is the belief that Adam really never sinned at all.. He provided a way to have us all enter the next step along their eternal progression trail. From a spirit life in heaven with God to that of mortality. You must have heard them call it "A fall upward".. They never refer to the Fall as a sin. They have cheapened it to being only a transgression.. Like somehow transgression is less serious than a sin.. So to blame Adam for sin in foreign to them.. Instead of saying Adam was a sinner they will blame Eve for the sin and hold Adam up as a christ like being.. After all it their doctrine that Adam aided Jesus in the creation of the world.. In LDS doctrine Young was right Adam is a god, ("Jehovah, Michael, see matter unorganized").. In mormonism Jehovah is Jesus, and Michael is Adam. IHS jim

Thanks......that is one screwed up Mormon doctrine to be sure!

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by James Banta

They never refer to the Fall as a sin. They have cheapened it to being only a transgression.. Like somehow transgression is less serious than a sin.. ..................In LDS doctrine Young was right Adam is a god, ........

The whole mess of Mormon teachings actually reminds me of a question I had to answer back when I attended Bible school.
We talked about it here on the forum, Im not sure what topic it was, but its something I like to think about and remember...


At some point in our Bible School cl*** study we were asked "When did Satan fall?"
We were shown how Jesus clearly told his guys that he had personally seen Satan fall....so we know Satan did fall..

But we were asked to come up with ideas for when?

Most of the other students picked out some made-up date billions and billions of years in the past....
But if I remember my answer that I came up with, I said that as near as I can see from just the text of the Bible alone, it appears that Satan fell at more or less the same time that we read about the sin of Adam.

I think I had this long answer that I turned in on the question, with tons of listed verses,etc,etvc,etc, but the heart of my answer rested on the idea that because Satan is an angel, and said to have fallen because he wanted to be seen as god , that this had to mean that it was after man was created .

I felt, (and still feel) that in order for Satan to actually be seen by anyone as being "god" that Satan would have to trick the beings he is seen as being god by.

I mean lets face it, he is not god, and will never be god..
So the only way he will ever be seen by anyone as being god is if he is able to trick others into thinking he is god.

I don't think angels can be tricked like that.

I felt that there is no way that Satan could ever trick other angels, so this means that the beings that Satan wanted to be seen as god by had to be people.


When we study the teachings of Mormonism it so clearly is true that the god of the Mormons is Satan.

Satan has actually managed to pull off his dream of being seen by others as god.

This seems to totally support my idea that Satan fell with the creation of man, because we do in-fact have these people that believe Satan is god right here and now....yet I doubt that anywhere in the universe is there even one tiny angel that actually believes Satan is God Almighty.

So the good angels know satan is not God, and all the bad, fallen angels all know for a fact that Satan is not the true God too.

This fact of life has not changed, will never change, nor can it.

Satan does not fool any angels into thinking he is god....he fools men.

From the things Jim has quoted its clear to me that all the Mormons worship Satan.
They follow Satan's ideas, they listen to Satan's advice, the credit Satan with being wise and good.
So it's case-closed on that issue.

I once heard a story that at one point in some type of Mormon temple setting they watch a little play/drama, and there is a prayer offered to God, and shockingly Satan answers that prayer!...

Now Im not sure if this story of the temple drama is true, but if it is it would be the last straw as far as Im concerned as to the question, "Do Mormons worship Satan?"........



They do.

[neverending]

Originally Posted by RealFakeHair

Women never listen anyways

I take offense with this comment. It is men who never listen! Seems we're always having to repeat ourselves and hey, what does this have to do with the thread topic?

[neverending]

Originally Posted by Phoenix

Oh.


So that same day that Eve ate the apple and then had Adam eat it next, that same day they both died? But doesn't the Bible say that Adam died like 930 years after the apple eating incident? (Genesis 5:5)


The issue is whether humans were able to disobey God before Adam and Eve had all those children and grandchildren. Adam and Eve pretty much proved that it wasn't impossible for humans to disobey God, right from the beginning.
This proves that all us descendants of Adam and Eve had the ability to disobey God all by ourselves, regardless what the first two humans did. That is because each of us has the same freedom to make bad choices that Adam and Eve had. They proved that we didn't inherit some "sin" DNA from them. After all, if they could disobey God, then who put the sin DNA into them?


So you're claiming that only Adam's sin that counted, even though he was the second person to eat the fruit? Why would that be? How is that fair?

".... as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death p***ed upon all men, for that all have sinned" (Romans 5:12)..


My point was merely that it's not Adam's fault that we sin. It's not Eve's fault, either, if that makes you feel any better.

The verse could be saying that since Adam got here first, everything that happened afterward happened "by one man."
If Adam had never arrived on the scene, Eve wouldn't have either, since she was made from a piece of him, the Bible says. Through Adam, Eve happened, so through Adam, the first act of disobedience entered the human race. But that is irrelevant to the real point, which is that the myth of a "sin nature" that we all inherited from Adam is a myth. We sin because we choose to, not because Adam's sin forces us to. No one forced Adam to sin, and he didn't have an inherited sin nature. Do you disagree with that?

I'd like to know what Adam and Eve have to do with this thread topic? And Phoenix, when Adam and Eve were kicked out of the garden it made them mortal. No, they didn't die then and there for we do know that Adam lived many centuries but they were made spiritually dead, separated from God. Also, Adam was over Eve, she was told to obey Adam by God, he took the fall for her, he should have been watching over her, she was his wife and wasn't it his *** to protect her? Do you not believe that Eve was punished more harshly then Adam? To have to be pregnant, go through the pain of child birth, far worse in my opinion then to have to be a farmer. And when you think about how the world is today, women work outside the home as well as keeping a home, bearing children and all the duties of being a wife. A woman's lot in life is very harsh.